"THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER

For reference only-GS says the SLA was a "copycat"letter.He supposedly got an official list of the missives from SFPD or a contact.I personally think the SLA as authenticated by Morrell was real.

For what it's worth, I don't see any real similarities between the SLA letter and the Fairfield communications. Between the SLA letter and 'Red Phantom'? Now, that's another story...

I never thought that darn SLA letter was from Zodiac.

For some reason I don't see Zodiac as starting off a letter with "Dear"--even if he were faking it to look like someone else. Now maybe this Fairfield letter writer wrote the SLA letter. I just think the most logical writer is someone in the SLA.

T27,
Note too that it is signed "a friend" and Valentine's is about 'friends.' So to be polite on this day he added "mr."Z would change as he began with "Dear Editor "then a large segment of letters are "This is the the Zodiac speaking."Sometimes it was just "Editor."Sometimes Editor was on the envelope.
He did "Dear Melvin;"Dear KJH Channel Nine"(my acceptance as a Z).Then just "sirs,"(pl.for first time)which can be 'mr'.The 1/29/74 nothing he starts right into the "note."He was capable of anythying.

Mr. Bungle; Mr. AK, MrBungle again....


Okay...lots to cover here...

I say it's a fake, and not a particularly good one. The paper's wrong, the pen's wrong...HOW DO WE KNOW WHAT PAPER Z WOULD USE IF HE WAS TRAVELING IN OR OUT OF STATE, OR UNDER DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES? What I'm saying is that he never used lined paper in any other communication, and we have no idea where Z was when he wrote any of them. If he was consistent before and consistent after, why would he change here?

the writing isn't really that close...the message is forced...the count directly conflicts with what Zodiac would claim in authenticated letters that arrived after this one. IT IS NOT A COUNT OF PEOPLE HE IS SAYING HE HAS KILLED, BUT A THREAT TO KILL THOSE PEOPLE IN THE FUTURE. 38 THREATENED, AND THE MOST ZODIAC WOULD CLAIM IN THE 70'S WAS 37. PRETTY CLOSE. True enough, and I'm not going to split hairs here.

The difference between this and the Belli letter is that, by the end of the Belli letter, Zodiac's handwriting starts to revert to something much more consistent with what we got in the earlier authenticated letters. The writing in this letter only matches up well with other letters that are more widely considered fakes.COMPARE IT TO THE 74 SLA LETTER. I'm sorry, I just don't see it...I think the writing in the disputed letters looks very similar though.

To compare the handwriting to the LB car door is probably not a good way to go. Zodiac would have been squatting down and writing from a vertical base on the door, and by the time he gets to the word "knife", he's very close to ground level. In fact, the writing on the door isn't really too close to the authenticated writings either, except for the sloppiness.

AK, while the FBI noted some similarities, they certainly did not offer a "qualified endorsement". "May have been" is much different than "was" or "was certainly" or "was definitely". The fact that it was retained means nothing in its authenticity. THE FBI USES VERY CAREFUL LANGAUGE. THEY OFFERED THE EXACT SAME LANGUAGE, WORD FOR WORD, THE EXACT SAME LEVEL OF QUALIFIED ENDORSEMENT FOR THE 12/16/69 FAIRFIELD LETTER AS THEY DO FOR THE 12/20/69 BELLI LETTER. Correct...however, to my knowledge, there is no evidence of either of these letters being confirmed by handwriting analysts, while the Belli letter was undoubtedly confirmed by outside sources. As I said, look at the Belli letter, and you can easily see that the earlier Zodiac handwriting starts to come out towards the end of the letter. These letters' writing looks nothing like any of the previous in any way (taking into account I don't see the "SLA" letter resemblance).

As Nacht said, all of the letters, authenticated or not, shared some similar qualities, but not all of the letters were authenticated. I'd like to see what the similarities the FBI were speaking of, as it could clear a lot of this up.

As for the use of "help" in any of the letters, it's not exactly a stretch that a killer who is openly communicative would eventually ask for help. Many, many have. TRUE, AND THERE IS THE ISSUE OF THE DUNBAR SHOW, BUT THAT CALLER WAS EXPOSED AS A FAKE. WE HAVE THE FACT THAT THE 12/16 FAIRFIELD LETTER ASKS FOR HELP, THEN THE 12/20 BELLI LETTER ASKS FOR HELP, SOMETHING THAT ZODIAC HAD NOT DONE BEFORE. PRIOR LETTERS WERE ANGRY, CONFIDENT, TAUNTING. I've always felt the tone in the Belli letter was because it was a personal communication. He wasn't trying to scare or terrify Belli, he had a different purpose. After the Belli letter, he went right back to his taunting, angry self.

Now, as to Tom having this letter 12 years ago...he probably did. I really have no reason to doubt it, as he's had connections for years now. Whether he chose to keep it on his site is his problem, not ours. I personally posted the letter at ZodiacKillerFacts yesterday, as well as the FBI page, in the questioned letters/forgeries section (it's definitely questioned, and I think it's a forgery) because, regardless of it being legitimate or not, it's part of the overall story and people would want to see it (and it's quite clear that, no matter what Tom says, most of us never saw it before). On top of all of this, our pal Robert Graysmith reported this letter in "Zodiac Unmasked" years ago as well (Chapter 17, paperback page 222). None of that matters at all. It was out there, and now, thanks to Morf & AK, the rest of us finally get a chance to see it. RIGHT! TOM HAS THE MAY 78 LETTER UP, WITH THE MANSON REFERENCE, THAT WRITING LOOKS VERY DIFFERENT FROM MOST Z WRITING, AND AS FAS AS I KNOW NO EXPERT HAS ENDORSED IT. HERE WE POST THINGS AND LET PEOPLE DECIDE. And that's a cool thing. It's part of the reason I decided to give this place a shot, and I'm happy I did.

And to AK, I'm no more or less popular on Michael's site for posting it there. I assure you, he doesn't care that it's up. HE DOESN'T SEEM TO CARE ABOUT MUCH. HE'S OK THOUGH. POST THESE FBI MEMO'S THERE AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS. He cares a lot, he just runs his site differently than you guys do here. It's all about purpose. Michael's site is more debunking the myths and getting the facts straight, while this site is more speculative. It's all good. I do plan on adding the additional FBI files to the thread on this letter, and, once again, I assure you Michael will be fine about it.

bruce3 wrote:

T27,
Note too that it is signed "a friend" and Valentine's is about 'friends.' So to be polite on this day he added "mr."Z would change as he began with "Dear Editor "then a large segment of letters are "This is the the Zodiac speaking."Sometimes it was just "Editor."Sometimes Editor was on the envelope.
He did "Dear Melvin;"Dear KJH Channel Nine"(my acceptance as a Z).Then just "sirs,"(pl.for first time)which can be 'mr'.The 1/29/74 nothing he starts right into the "note."He was capable of anythying.

Ah yes, "Dear Melvin"...you are correct of course. I still don't think it's Zodiac though.

Question: What's the difference between a qualified endorsement and an authenticated one by the FBI on
some of the Z letters? Does it mean the same thing or ?

Zamantha wrote:

Question: What's the difference between a qualified endorsement and an authenticated one by the FBI on
some of the Z letters? Does it mean the same thing or ?

To be honest, given what is in the FBI reports, I'd say they did neither for these AND the Belli letter. All they really do is note that there are some similarities, but they don't sound overly enthused with either. I just can't call what they have on either of the documents adding up to a "qualified endorsement" of anything.

Remember, as well, that the letters we refer to as "confirmed" were confirmed by handwriting experts like Sherwood Morrill & John Shimoda, not because of any FBI authentication.

That is the best the FBI gives. They don't stick their necks out, they are very careful in their langauge. When they say there are matching characteristics and they "may have" been prepared by the Zodiac, that is the best they give. I note it as "qualified" only because they note distortion and "not written as freely".

Man...I take off for a few hours, and I miss all this excitement.


I am glad that this material has allowed some healthy and friendly debates to happen.

As for my opinion, I am still out. I see some things that look similar, and some things that look different. If the FBI couldnt make a determination, I dont think we will be able to prove one way or the other if this letter is real.

AK Wilks wrote:

bruce3 wrote:

Again,has anyone or will anyone place a side by side for the THE ,for example, as compared to the '67 Notes sent to Mr.Bates,RSPD and the newspaper there?

"THE" from "Bates had to die" and "THe" from "Bleeding Knife".

Look at the little crook at the bottom of the "T"
That is powerfull stuff IMO.
I am far from convinced that this is from z but would a copycat have picked up on that little detail?
I really dont think so and of course it could be coincidence.
But it just popped out at me.

MrBungle wrote:

Zamantha wrote:

Question: What's the difference between a qualified endorsement and an authenticated one by the FBI on
some of the Z letters? Does it mean the same thing or ?

To be honest, given what is in the FBI reports, I'd say they did neither for these AND the Belli letter. All they really do is note that there are some similarities, but they don't sound overly enthused with either. I just can't call what they have on either of the documents adding up to a "qualified endorsement" of anything.

Remember, as well, that the letters we refer to as "confirmed" were confirmed by handwriting experts like Sherwood Morrill & John Shimoda, not because of any FBI authentication.

Just to be crystal clear.........We have no FBI authentication on any z communication?

edited to add the word "any"

The "Zodiac killer" note is contraversial to be sure. I offer some observations.
There seens to be components to the Bates as well as the LB case.

The note as shown in a previous post in this thread is typed in all upper case letters as was the Confession.This note was composed in November of '69.The Confession was composed in November of '66.Reverse the 9 in the 69 note and you have '66.
Both productions were copies of an original which never surfaced.

The '69 note had 'doodles' ten in number which was not unlike Z would do.

In the 66 Confession the Z used the word to when he should have used too just as we find in the mini note.
Both productions discussed a young female. In the 69 note it says 'you are to (sic) beautiful...'
The Confession says she was 'beautiful.'

There was a full moon when Bates was killed with a knife.There was also a full moon when Gaul (I have all police reports)was killed with a knife.Both murders, which were very vicious,had typed upper case missives connected to them.

Magnolia Bl.was very close and connected to the alley where Gaul was killed.Magnolia Bl was a prominent street next to where Bates lived.
Both were killed with a knife in an alley.Both areas had a water connection(if one has this interest) Riverside and Silverlake.

Gaul had given BD the 'brush off' as LT.Deemer had said as she was seeing a man and when he found out LT.Deemer said he 'became enraged.'He lived down the hall from her at a Scientology Manor.The note Deemer told us was found by a detective in her room and was never turned into evidence.We gave it to the head detective at Ramparts.Deemer said he was 'up to his eyeballs in murders'(I saw one of his murder books and he was not jesting!) and it or the note got passed over. Deemer had no real interest in Z.

Z writes about Cheri giving him the 'brush off.'You wonder if he learned of her connection to football star Dennis Highland and he too became angry.


At LB both a male and female were stabbed as we have with Gaul and Sharp.There was a full moon on both attacks.
In the police report it was noted a foxtail had been placed under Gaul.It was not indigenous to the entire area.They thought it strange as it seemed to have been deliberately placed there.There was an area at LB that was called "Foxtail Flats"(you can see this name on LB maps today-I have a copy somewhere in my files) where hippies used to hang out.Loud cries went up there was no such place.Wrong!

That's enough for now.

Jon55 wrote:

MrBungle wrote:

Zamantha wrote:

Question: What's the difference between a qualified endorsement and an authenticated one by the FBI on
some of the Z letters? Does it mean the same thing or ?

To be honest, given what is in the FBI reports, I'd say they did neither for these AND the Belli letter. All they really do is note that there are some similarities, but they don't sound overly enthused with either. I just can't call what they have on either of the documents adding up to a "qualified endorsement" of anything.

Remember, as well, that the letters we refer to as "confirmed" were confirmed by handwriting experts like Sherwood Morrill & John Shimoda, not because of any FBI authentication.

Just to be crystal clear.........We have no FBI authentication on any z communication?

edited to add the word "any"

I'd have to go through the FBI files to see if they've actually used the phrase "confirmed" or something similar, but AK states that their phrasing in the pages shown is the best they do. My only point is that the letters we refer to as "confirmed" had nothing to do with the FBI's opinions, just trusted handwriting experts.

Wonder what "go for the government life" means

Hmmm the cover up we heard bits an pieces about? A Gov't cover up? The 4 small cross marks, back to that 4 PI theory........even if it's a fake, maybe
the writer knew something. I'm just trying to think out of the box...............

"go for the government life"

I read that to mean TRY TO TAKE THE LIVES OF GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES - Cops, military, politicians, bureacrats.

He says "this STATE is in trouble." Then he threatens COPS in FAIRFIELD.

I think he is threatening "GOVERNMENT LIFE" - the lifes of government workers.

He says he will kill 9 in Sacramento, the State capital.

There is a large Zodiac symbol surrounded by four small Zodiac symbols - how might that be connected to the 4 PI Occult group?

On the Old ZodiacZee forum there was quite alot of discussion of the "POSSIBLE" Occult PI connection. I understand this is not a fact, but just another theory. But
it seems to me that is all we really have at this time. I'm just thinkin of all possible angles/theories. 4 satellite Celtic crosses surrounding the large one could indicate indicate 4P/4 PI.
What does the 4 Zodiac Cross mean to you? Or does anyone else have an idea......... Seems like a clew to me.

AK Wilks wrote:

... One interesting thing will be if and when I get the envelope, to see that writing, and also to see that stamp....

Yes, the envelope will be interesting to see.

I notice that according to the FBI the envelope was fully addressed to the Examiner (with street name & No.). No other Zodiac letters to newspapers contain a street address apart from the 1974 Citizen Card (if you count that one) as far as I can see ....Another reason to doubt this one, I'm afraid. ....[A couple of envelopes to individuals did have street addresses i.e. Belli letter & the Halloween card]

Zamantha wrote:

Wonder what "go for the government life" means

Hmmm the cover up we heard bits an pieces about? A Gov't cover up? The 4 small cross marks, back to that 4 PI theory........even if it's a fake, maybe
the writer knew something. I'm just trying to think out of the box...............

I read "GO FOR THE GOVT LIFE, DONT FORGET ME" to mean he was moving, maybe for a GOVT job some place else. Saying DONT FORGET ME, suggests to me that he wasnt going to be around, whether he was killing or not. Maybe that could explain his 3 year pause in writing in the early to mid 70's

Zamantha wrote:

Wonder what "go for the government life" means

Hmmm the cover up we heard bits an pieces about? A Gov't cover up? The 4 small cross marks, back to that 4 PI theory........even if it's a fake, maybe
the writer knew something. I'm just trying to think out of the box...............

I´ll jump on the out of the box thinking for minute:

What if Zodiac, in som way was working for the CIA, and they found out he was the Zodiac, and covered it up?
They couldn´t have one of their men turning out to be the Zodiac serial killer could they?
Sure would explain all the mysteries surounding this case.

Just a out of the box theorie of course

Concerning wheter the Melvin Belli letter was a true Zodiac letter:

Could there be any doubt? there was a piece of Paul Stines bloody shirt in that letter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Killer

On December 20, 1969, exactly one year after the murders of David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen, the Zodiac mailed a letter to Belli, including another swatch of Stine's shirt; the Zodiac claimed he wanted Belli to help him.