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 "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER

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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:20 am

Theforeigner wrote:
morf13 wrote:
Very good points everybody! I am sure that stories of Bryan & Hartnell were all over the papers after the Z attack at Berryessa, and the fact they were stabbed was in the papers if I am not mistaken, certainly by the time the BLEEDING KNIFE letter was written, it seems everyone would have known Z stabbed them, so although I think that it could be a real Z letter, the fact he mentions a knife isnt that important, even IF the car door "by knife" wasnt shared with the public.

Morf and tahoe too (in response to one of your posts about this issue), it is not using the word "knife" that is important here, it is the WAY it was written that indicate that it was the real Zodiac.
The car door "By knife" is written in a pretty significant way, and the word "knife" in "the Bleeding knife" letter is written in the very same significant style, THAT is what makes a connection between the car door writing and "the Bleeding knife" letter.

And as I wrote before; if the car door "by knife" handwriting had not been published to the public by Dec 16, 1969, how could the writer of the bleeding knife letter write the word "knife" in the very same handwriting style as Zodiac did on the car door, unless he was the very same man who wrote on the car door Sep 27, 1969??

In other terms; how would a hoax know how to copy the actual handwriting of the car door word "knife", when the writing had not been made public?

Se what I mean?


Here check out how VERY simelar the two words "Knife" is, and other letters and numbers too IMO:

Okay, that makes alot of sense Foreigner & AK, and thats a very valid point you both have. If the image was never seen by the publi at the time of the BLEEDING KNIFE letter was written, how could a copycat copy it so well??? Very interesting indeed...maybe this is a legitimate Z letter, and if that's the case, then some people may be prematurely dismissing it as a hoax.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:24 am

Upon closer examination, the writing seems like a match in my opinion, especially the lower case J. As I always have said, the car door writing is likely Z's most realistic writing, that was not altered since he wanted to get out of there asap, so with the letter he sent, he would have had more time to alter it and disguise it.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:26 am

I removed the photo of the car doors in two of the above posts as it was way too big, and stretched the forum page too far out. Before putting it back into the post, please shrink it down a bit. Here is a good site for shrinking photos:
http://www.shrinkpictures.com/
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:32 am

morf13 wrote:
Upon closer examination, the writing seems like a match in my opinion, especially the lower case J. As I always have said, the car door writing is likely Z's most realistic writing, that was not altered since he wanted to get out of there asap, so with the letter he sent, he would have had more time to alter it and disguise it.

Glad you see it know:)
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:33 am

Theforeigner wrote:
morf13 wrote:
Upon closer examination, the writing seems like a match in my opinion, especially the lower case J. As I always have said, the car door writing is likely Z's most realistic writing, that was not altered since he wanted to get out of there asap, so with the letter he sent, he would have had more time to alter it and disguise it.

Glad you see it know:)

I am no writing expert, but I am going to say this is a legit Z letter- as long as no image of the car door was available at the time
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:54 am

morf13 wrote:
Theforeigner wrote:
morf13 wrote:
Upon closer examination, the writing seems like a match in my opinion, especially the lower case J. As I always have said, the car door writing is likely Z's most realistic writing, that was not altered since he wanted to get out of there asap, so with the letter he sent, he would have had more time to alter it and disguise it.

Glad you see it know:)

I am no writing expert, but I am going to say this is a legit Z letter- as long as no image of the car door was available at the time

I agree.
The only other explanation would be if somone from the LE involved in the Lake Berryess murder investigation wrote the letter because he had seen the writing on the door.
But then again remember that the writing "by knife" was consealed in the pictures were the door is in the evidence room, so who knows how many/few within the police force had seen the "by knife" writing.
I tend to belive it is a true Z letter.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 10:57 am

Yes. We need our Bay Area friends here to scour library copies of newspapers between the Berryessa date and the date of this letter... to see if a picture of the car door (showing the word "KNIFE") was printed.

Probably just need to check the main Napa paper &/or the Vallejo Times Herald &/or the SF Chron. If it was printed anywhere it would have been in one of those for sure, i guess.

Zam, Sandy, Bentley, any other locals??? It basically means checking every day's paper for about a 11 week period. While doing it, it would be a good idea to note/copy ALL articles mentioning Z (as what was commonly known via news reports is important for validating this and other Z documents).
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:18 am

Guess I'm the naysayer here. The big ole party-pooper.

The word "knife" you guys think is a match. Question

The "k" looks like it was written as an "n" or an "h" originally. It doesn't match the "k" on the car door--which has a separate stroke.

The "n" and the "i"...maybe although the car door "n" has a lot more of a line sticking up and the "i" by Z has a dot.

The "f" not a match

The "e" not a match. (In knife at least--not a match as it has a straight line)

At this point with comparing the word "Knife" I just don't see what you guys see.

***

The letter too. If someone is going to pretend to be Zodiac and write a letter, they better be able to somewhat copy his handwriting as well as his missives. Of course they would write "this is the Zodiac speaking", possibly threaten cops, etc.

I don't even think this was a good try. But that's just me. Smile

Again, the fact you got your hands on this Morf is awesome and I have seen this no where else--either the letter or the drawing of the knife, so just because I don't think this is in any way Zodiac, doesn't mean I don't think your efforts here have been nothing but AMAZING and who knows..eventually you might find something that no one noticed before and THAT is the wonderful part here about all of your efforts--whether we agree or disagree, you are really putting forth an effort and that is truly a good thing.



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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:24 am

I appreciate the words Tahoe.

I do have to say that I disagree with you on the writing, as I think there are some similarities. Remember, after Berryessa, Z probably didnt want to hang out all day writing the note on the car door, and probably wanted to get out of there rather quickly, so I can see the writing on the door being his true writing. In the knife letter, there are similarities, even though as the FBI put it, there were attempts to change the writing. I think that would explain the differences.

I think the letter V and the letter J are close to matches in both.

That being said, I cant see us coming to a solid conclusion if the FBI couldnt and we are not writing experts.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:25 am

tahoe27 wrote:
Guess I'm the naysayer here. The big ole party-pooper.

The word "knife" you guys think is a match. Question

The "k" looks like it was written as an "n" or an "h" originally. It doesn't match the "k" on the car door--which has a separate stroke.

The "n" and the "i"...maybe although the car door "n" has a lot more of a line sticking up and the "i" by Z has a dot.

The "f" not a match

The "e" not a match. (In knife at least--not a match as it has a straight line)

At this point with comparing the word "Knife" I just don't see what you guys see.

***

The letter too. If someone is going to pretend to be Zodiac and write a letter, they better be able to somewhat copy his handwriting as well as his missives. Of course they would write "this is the Zodiac speaking", possibly threaten cops, etc.

I don't even think this was a good try. But that's just me. Smile


Again, the fact you got your hands on this Morf is awesome and I have seen this no where else--either the letter or the drawing of the knife, so just because I don't think this is in any way Zodiac, doesn't mean I don't think your efforts here have been nothing but AMAZING and who knows..eventually you might find something that no one noticed before and THAT is the wonderful part here about all of your efforts--whether we agree or disagree, you are really putting forth an effort and that is truly a good thing.






Dear tahoe, you are the nices "naysayer" I know Smile and please know that I do respect you opinion, though I have to disagree with you on this one.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:27 am


INTERESTING FACT - IN THIS POSSIBLE ZODIAC LETTER OF 12/16/69 THE THREAT IS MADE TO TAKE "GOVERNMENT LIFE" AND "COPS" AS WELL AS KILL 9 IN SACRAMENTO.

NANCY BENNALLACK WAS A GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE IN SACRAMENTO, SHE WAS A COURT REPORTER.

IN A CONFIRMED ZODIAC LETTER OF 4/20/70 ZODIAC SAID THERE WAS MORE 'GLORY" IN "KILLING A COP THAN CID" AND LATER ZODIAC WOULD HINT THAT HE KILLED SFPD OFFICER RICHARD RADETICH IN JUNE 1970.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:29 am

If we can say there are similarities in this letter, then all the letters mailed in might as well be Z's too. They pretty much ALL have "similarities", but in this one, tone, topic, writing--not Z imo.

If we say that Z's writing style may have changed, etc., then we open the door to just about anybody.

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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:31 am

The match between the LB "knife" and this letter "knife" is not perfect, but it is far better than you would expect from a hoaxer, if the LB "knife" was never published prior to 12/16/69.

Also - I think we can all agree on this point - it seems to be the case that either ALL the Zodiac Fairfield/Sacramento letters are FAKE, or, all are REAL.

There are dozens of clear fakes in the FBI files, and dozens the FBI or police ruled were probable fakes.

These Fairfield materials were ones they were on the fence about, but they did say they had similar characteristics and "may have" been done by Zodiac.

Also, the FBI did attempt to decode the Zodiac cipher in the 12/7/69 Fairfield letter.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:33 am

Theforeigner wrote:
tahoe27 wrote:
Guess I'm the naysayer here. The big ole party-pooper.

The word "knife" you guys think is a match. Question

The "k" looks like it was written as an "n" or an "h" originally. It doesn't match the "k" on the car door--which has a separate stroke.

The "n" and the "i"...maybe although the car door "n" has a lot more of a line sticking up and the "i" by Z has a dot.

The "f" not a match

The "e" not a match. (In knife at least--not a match as it has a straight line)

At this point with comparing the word "Knife" I just don't see what you guys see.

***

The letter too. If someone is going to pretend to be Zodiac and write a letter, they better be able to somewhat copy his handwriting as well as his missives. Of course they would write "this is the Zodiac speaking", possibly threaten cops, etc.

I don't even think this was a good try. But that's just me. Smile


Again, the fact you got your hands on this Morf is awesome and I have seen this no where else--either the letter or the drawing of the knife, so just because I don't think this is in any way Zodiac, doesn't mean I don't think your efforts here have been nothing but AMAZING and who knows..eventually you might find something that no one noticed before and THAT is the wonderful part here about all of your efforts--whether we agree or disagree, you are really putting forth an effort and that is truly a good thing.






Dear tahoe, you are the nices "naysayer" I know Smile and please know that I do respect you opinion, though I have to disagree with you on this one.

Thanks TF. I just think if you guys think the K-F & E match....ya 'all need glasses. Suspect pirat scratch Smile

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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:35 am

Look at the April 78 letter - most experts think that if a letter shows TOO PERFECT a match, it may be a fake!
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:51 am

I agree, this is a match. For me it has the whole Z feel to it. As far as my eye can see, the writing is a match....
I find these new finds VERY exciting. When I first look at it, it felt right... like Z like. Then the more I scrutinize the
whole thing, and also look at what others are seeing. I say MATCH.

I also say thanks for everyone for continuing to really look and ponder these!





I agree, also respect Tahoe's opinions. But on this one I agree to disagree Smile
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:14 pm

tahoe27 wrote:
Theforeigner wrote:
tahoe27 wrote:
Guess I'm the naysayer here. The big ole party-pooper.

The word "knife" you guys think is a match. Question

The "k" looks like it was written as an "n" or an "h" originally. It doesn't match the "k" on the car door--which has a separate stroke.

The "n" and the "i"...maybe although the car door "n" has a lot more of a line sticking up and the "i" by Z has a dot.

The "f" not a match

The "e" not a match. (In knife at least--not a match as it has a straight line)

At this point with comparing the word "Knife" I just don't see what you guys see.

***

The letter too. If someone is going to pretend to be Zodiac and write a letter, they better be able to somewhat copy his handwriting as well as his missives. Of course they would write "this is the Zodiac speaking", possibly threaten cops, etc.

I don't even think this was a good try. But that's just me. Smile


Again, the fact you got your hands on this Morf is awesome and I have seen this no where else--either the letter or the drawing of the knife, so just because I don't think this is in any way Zodiac, doesn't mean I don't think your efforts here have been nothing but AMAZING and who knows..eventually you might find something that no one noticed before and THAT is the wonderful part here about all of your efforts--whether we agree or disagree, you are really putting forth an effort and that is truly a good thing.






Dear tahoe, you are the nices "naysayer" I know Smile and please know that I do respect you opinion, though I have to disagree with you on this one.

Thanks TF. I just think if you guys think the K-F & E match....ya 'all need glasses. Suspect pirat scratch Smile


I have now sent the new letter and the Lake Berryess door to my x-husband and have him take a look at it.
He knows the Zodiac case pretty well, especially the letters/handwriting side of the case due to that he has been my consulter in handwriting matters through the last 4 years,

His educations are typographer, graphic designer and he has a pennmaship. He has worked with this stuf for over 30 years and he is VERY good.
Of course he is not a documnet expert, but it´s pretty close IMO.

I´ll let you know what he says about it.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:14 pm

Someone pointed out on ZKfacts.com that the phrase "HA HA HA ", as in this possible letter, appears in the Jenner Beach Journal at the scene of the Cutshall- Allen murders. Its been a while since I read about that case or saw any writing, so I did some double checking, and sure enough, as seen here:
http://www.wzzm13.com/pdf/050206-pressrelease.pdf
The phrase "HA HA HA" does appear in the book. And pics of that Jenner scene remind me of Domingos/Edwards scene. Creepy. Maybe a coincidence, but interesting.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:30 pm

Fairfield is where Darlene's ex-husband worked at the newspaper for a sort time.I don't know if Z had this in mind if this was a real Z communication or if he would engage in such things.

You lose much of the detail in using a xerox. Most judges won't allow copies in a forgery trial.I there is an envelope then the stamp or flap (if a prepaid postage envelope like the 12/10/69 deal)can be used in a DNA test.

The paste-up was sent to Sacramento Bee 12/10/69 so there was at least one SAC Z connect then.

There is a supposed Z letter by Z to the DMV that TV may bring to light in the future.

There were certainly things Z could have done for letter verification.He had enough of Stine's shirt since 10/11/69 to enclose a swatch as he did, in say, the Belli letter.Strange.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:43 pm

Good points.

What is interesting is it seems law enforcement was on the fence about these Fairfield/Sacramento letters, and I don't think they got much play in the press. If they were real, could that have inspired Zodiac to send the shirt bit, so he wouldn't be ignored?

Also, this is about unsolved couple murders:

http://www.truecrimediary.com/index.cfm?page=cases&id=17

Burgess was eventually caught, and his DNA did not match DNA found at Jenner Beach, but who knows if that is really DNA from the killer?

Someone is out there killing couples. Probably not Zodiac IMO, but he is out there.

This is the "R" found in the Jenner Beach journal.



In those Jenner Beach journals, there was also discussion of "Spider Man", and there was a "Ha Ha Ha", similar to what we see on this 12/16/69 letter.

But I think some Jack the Ripper letters also had "ha ha ha".
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:51 pm

Here is one thing not mentioned.

There have been at least three "fake" Zodiacs - in New York, Japan and North Carolina. All wrote "fake" Zodiac letters - they were not the man who was the SF Zodiac. Yet all three of these "fakes" did kill people.

If all the Fairfield/Sacramento Zodiac letters are fake, we have someone who spent a lot of time on this project. It can't be dismissed that he could - just like the NY, Japan and NC "Fake Zodiacs", also be a killer.

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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:09 pm

There are two HA HA's (there are three Ha's in the newly uncovered letter-it should be noted there are no Ha's of any kind in canonical Z letters or postcards) in the all upper case typed Zodiac killer note as found in Doreen Gaul's room by LAPD November 1969.LT.Deemer told us they found a copy not an original.This was a surprise as we knew the '66 Confession was a copy not an original.I spoke to him by phone once and got one or two letters from him.
I contacted his widow by letter and she searched ,but could not find find an original,or anymore info so Det.Earl was correct.We gave his 'murder book' and this typed '69 note to Ramparts Div.There is a photo of this presentation.They now have a complete set of Deemer's 'murder books' as they were called and the '69 note.

All speculation-accusation (what's new!) by Butterfield that we 'hoaxed' that '69 note are absolutely and totally untrue!!! I would sure as hades had done a much better job than that LOL
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:29 pm








I very much doubt the Gaul - Sharp letter was from the real SF Zodiac, but it does share a "ha ha" in common with this 12/16/69 letter (2 vs. 3, though, and both may have been inspired by Jack the Ripper), and there is also a slight similarity in the "dripping" effect on the Gaul - Sharp letter and the "Bleeding Knife of Zodiac" dripping. Both seem to be evoking the same image anyway, blood dripping off a knife. And both may have been inspired by this Jack the Ripper letter, which also has a knife dripping blood at the top of the letter, and a "Ha Ha" in the middle.

Gaul - Sharp murder was 11/21/69?

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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 3:30 pm

This was posted on Mike B's site by Deb S.
I thought it was a good statement, an worth reading.


The one thing I find interesting about this letter is the list of cities. Besides the three places where Zodiac was known to have committed crimes and/or sent letters, San Jose, Fairfield, Sacramento and Oakland are listed.

There were alleged letters sent to Fairfield never authenticated. There was the Want Zodiac/Flt 555 paste up letter sent to the Sacramento Bee. The woman who was the secretary to the detectives at Oakland PD received an alleged phone call from Zodiac and a phone call was made to San Jose CHP supposedly by Zodiac threatening to kill 5 officers and 5 people. None of these events were widely known about at the time except, perhaps, the Oakland phone call.

There are lots of cities in the Bay Area but the writer of this letter named four cities that did have dubious Zodiac connections. It makes me wonder if the person who sent this letter was also behind the phone calls and letters made or sent to the four cities.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Wed Sep 01, 2010 4:24 pm

Zamantha wrote:
This was posted on Mike B's site by Deb S.
I thought it was a good statement, an worth reading.


The one thing I find interesting about this letter is the list of cities. Besides the three places where Zodiac was known to have committed crimes and/or sent letters, San Jose, Fairfield, Sacramento and Oakland are listed.

There were alleged letters sent to Fairfield never authenticated. There was the Want Zodiac/Flt 555 paste up letter sent to the Sacramento Bee. The woman who was the secretary to the detectives at Oakland PD received an alleged phone call from Zodiac and a phone call was made to San Jose CHP supposedly by Zodiac threatening to kill 5 officers and 5 people. None of these events were widely known about at the time except, perhaps, the Oakland phone call.

There are lots of cities in the Bay Area but the writer of this letter named four cities that did have dubious Zodiac connections. It makes me wonder if the person who sent this letter was also behind the phone calls and letters made or sent to the four cities.

Thats interesting
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