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 "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER

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AK Wilks
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:42 pm

Actually I do have respect for both Tom V and Mike B for the contributions they have made to the case.

But a lot of different posters here have made some significant finds, so this just goes to show that relative newcomers to the case may have a fresh perspective to contribute, and that things can get done and new evidence can be found.

I don't know if these Fairfield letters are real or fake. There are still some good arguments both ways.

But it is clear the FBI did NOT dismiss these as fake, and indeed gave them the exact same level of qualified endorsement as the Belli letter, long accepted by the reseach community as a real Z letter.

Thanks to all who contributed ideas, pro or con, to this thread.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:47 pm

I'm still not clear, AK, on where you are getting that the FBI held these letters to be as "strong" as the other "known" Z letters from...
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:48 pm

Zabagliona wrote:
I am not quite understanding what you are saying here...It looks to me as if they had a QDE look at these and s/he said that these letters could not really be associated with other known Zodiac letter/writing specimens...

Q34 - Q38 are the 12/7/69 and 12/16/69 Fairfield letters and envelopes.

Q43 and Q44 are the Belli letter and envelope of 12/20/69.

The examiner notes that the Fairfield letters AND the Belli letter contain some "distortion" and appear to have been "not written as freely" as prior letters.

But then the examiner notes (on page 65) that the Fairfield letters have characteristics which indicate they "may have been prepared" by the same person who wrote the earlier confirmed Zodiac letters.

And then (on page 70) the examiner notes that the Belli letter and envelope has characteristics indicating that "ALL" of the letters may have been prepared by the same person.

So, far from a dismissal of the Fairfield letters as a hoax, the FBI notes that they have elements in common with the Belli letter, and that ALL have characteristics matching previous confirmed Zodiac letters.
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AK Wilks
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 4:57 pm








The FBI uses very careful, CYA langauge in their analysis.

But they give the exact same verdict on the Fairfield letters that they do on the Belli letter - a qualified endorsement.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:04 pm

I don't think so...in part because only the Belli letter and envelope were retained...and I read it as saying that the Belli letter and envelope were clearly the work of Z and the other things probably were not...
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:05 pm

The FBI uses very careful, CYA langauge in their analysis.

But they give the exact same verdict on the Fairfield letters that they do on the Belli letter - a qualified endorsement.

The above statement pointed out my AK.

Thanks AK, for taking the time to read an understand this. A qualified endorsement is an excellent find. Not bragging
much but I felt it in my bones that both these letters were Z like. But I took the time to look, read and really ponder. So.
many other peeps just glance an say No...can't be... it looks Fake. I honestly feel that are so NOT Fake, they are So Real.
Maybe we should start a poll, a Yes or No, or Maybe to see what the gang is thinkin.

PZ, nice to have a lawyer in the house :-)
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:10 pm

So you guys are choosing to ignore the statement that the Belli letter and envelope were retained (meaning as evidence of "authentic Z communications), and the others were not...OK.....
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:12 pm

Wow, the Belli letter was withheld? That's news to me. I always thought nearly every Zodiac letter ended up being printed in the paper.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:13 pm

Zabagliona wrote:
So you guys are choosing to ignore the statement that the Belli letter and envelope were retained (meaning as evidence of "authentic Z communications), and the others were not...OK.....

Not true.

Look at the bottom of page 65, in regard to the Fairfield letters:


PG 65:



"THE SUBMITTED MATERIAL IS RETAINED"

In fact it was the FBI that sent the 12/16/69 letter to Morf - so it is clear they did retain it, as the memo above indicates.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:17 pm

That's what I understood it to mean too, AK. That Qc36-42 were also to be retained (i.e. including the Fairfield letter).
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:38 pm

It basically says there were some distortions, not written as freely as Z, with some similarities so the letter "may have" been written by (Zodiac). So they retained the material....which apparently they did with the fake stuff too.

I too looked long and hard at this. I have been looking at and reading Zodiac's letters for over 20 (+) years, as have others whom I'm sure would disagree with me. But, I like to think I don't dismiss potential Zodiac stuff without some consideration. I love ya Zam, but because we might not be in agreement doesn't mean we didn't look closely at this letter. I took many things into consideration.






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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:50 pm

Okay...lots to cover here...

I say it's a fake, and not a particularly good one. The paper's wrong, the pen's wrong...the writing isn't really that close...the message is forced...the count directly conflicts with what Zodiac would claim in authenticated letters that arrived after this one.

The difference between this and the Belli letter is that, by the end of the Belli letter, Zodiac's handwriting starts to revert to something much more consistent with what we got in the earlier authenticated letters. The writing in this letter only matches up well with other letters that are more widely considered fakes.

To compare the handwriting to the LB car door is probably not a good way to go. Zodiac would have been squatting down and writing from a vertical base on the door, and by the time he gets to the word "knife", he's very close to ground level. In fact, the writing on the door isn't really too close to the authenticated writings either, except for the sloppiness.

AK, while the FBI noted some similarities, they certainly did not offer a "qualified endorsement". "May have been" is much different than "was" or "was certainly" or "was definitely". The fact that it was retained means nothing in its authenticity.

As Nacht said, all of the letters, authenticated or not, shared some similar qualities, but not all of the letters were authenticated. I'd like to see what the similarities the FBI were speaking of, as it could clear a lot of this up.

As for the use of "help" in any of the letters, it's not exactly a stretch that a killer who is openly communicative would eventually ask for help. Many, many have.

Now, as to Tom having this letter 12 years ago...he probably did. I really have no reason to doubt it, as he's had connections for years now. Whether he chose to keep it on his site is his problem, not ours. I personally posted the letter at ZodiacKillerFacts yesterday, as well as the FBI page, in the questioned letters/forgeries section (it's definitely questioned, and I think it's a forgery) because, regardless of it being legitimate or not, it's part of the overall story and people would want to see it (and it's quite clear that, no matter what Tom says, most of us never saw it before). On top of all of this, our pal Robert Graysmith reported this letter in "Zodiac Unmasked" years ago as well (Chapter 17, paperback page 222). None of that matters at all. It was out there, and now, thanks to Morf & AK, the rest of us finally get a chance to see it.

And to AK, I'm no more or less popular on Michael's site for posting it there. I assure you, he doesn't care that it's up.

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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:54 pm

Nachtsider wrote:
Wow, the Belli letter was withheld? That's news to me. I always thought nearly every Zodiac letter ended up being printed in the paper.

No, it was retained, not withheld...they just kept it in the file Smile
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:55 pm

Thank you for your rationality, Mr. Bungle; I absolutely agree with you...
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:55 pm

tahoe27 wrote:
It basically says there were some distortions, not written as freely as Z, with some similarities so the letter "may have" been written by (Zodiac). So they retained the material....which apparently they did with the fake stuff too.

I too looked long and hard at this. I have been looking at and reading Zodiac's letters for over 20 (+) years, as have others whom I'm sure would disagree with me. But, I like to think I don't dismiss potential Zodiac stuff without some consideration. I love ya Zam, but because we might not be in agreement doesn't mean we didn't look closely at this letter. I took many things into consideration.






Tahoe, I trust you did read n look at everything. and I honestly know you are one of those posters who knows this case inside an out & Love ya Too. I always totally respect your viewpoints! Actually was not referring to you, but on a couple other forums I read a couple posters just posted a quick No, or it's a for sure Fake, w/o even giving their view points.... those where the ones I was taking about. i'm not getting why they can't back up their quick No, with some type of feeling. I always appreciate a good debate :-)
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:01 pm

MrBungle wrote:
No, it was retained, not withheld...they just kept it in the file Smile

Silly me. Embarassed

If the Belli letter was printed in the paper, or if its details (including 'Help me') were at least made mention of, any Tom, Dick and Harry would have enough information to create this fake.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:04 pm

Nachtsider wrote:
MrBungle wrote:
No, it was retained, not withheld...they just kept it in the file Smile

Silly me. Embarassed

If the Belli letter was printed in the paper, or if its details (including 'Help me') were at least made mention of, any Tom, Dick and Harry would have enough information to create this fake.

And don't forget the Dunbar show...that was October 22, 1969, well before this letter.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:28 pm

MrBungle wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:
MrBungle wrote:
No, it was retained, not withheld...they just kept it in the file Smile

Silly me. Embarassed

If the Belli letter was printed in the paper, or if its details (including 'Help me') were at least made mention of, any Tom, Dick and Harry would have enough information to create this fake.

And don't forget the Dunbar show...that was October 22, 1969, well before this letter.

We were talking about this in another thread earlier today.
http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/unconfirmed-zodiac-letters-mailings-general-discussion-f6/this-state-is-in-trouble-letter-t455-105.htm

***

You know what else...lack of dotted "i's". Zodiac sure had a thing for dotting his "i's"....usually little circles, which you can't tell so much in the copies. This person outright lacks any dots. There are some, but nothing like what Zodiac would have done imo. Same with this person's drawing.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:40 pm

tahoe27 wrote:
MrBungle wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:

If the Belli letter was printed in the paper, or if its details (including 'Help me') were at least made mention of, any Tom, Dick and Harry would have enough information to create this fake.

And don't forget the Dunbar show...that was October 22, 1969, well before this letter.

We were talking about this in another thread earlier today.
http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/unconfirmed-zodiac-letters-mailings-general-discussion-f6/this-state-is-in-trouble-letter-t455-105.htm

From the transcript Graysmith put in the Yellowbook, the caller doesn't seem to directly ask for help (he says he needs medical care and that he doesn't want to be hurt or go to the gas chamber), but Belli mentions the word "help".

EDIT: in "Unmasked", it states that "a KGO news bulletin was drafted: "Alleged 'Zodiac Killer' pleads for help in telephone calls to 'A.M.' Program with Jim Dunbar."
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:53 pm

Walter Cronkite----"he (Sam) said he was the Zodiac Killer and he needed help".

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsM-kwU2mRU
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:10 pm

I am not really following this talk about the letter being retained. Zabaglonia said the Belli letter was retained and the other letters were not, then a couple other members say the other letters were retained. Who is right? Sorry, I know this is probably a dumb question, but I have been reading and reading all day (on the comp and off) and my brain is fried. I need someone more clearheaded to explain this to me.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:14 pm

Very nice, Tahoe! I guess we can safely say that the idea of Zodiac needing help was floating around a lot before this letter was written.

Tracers, Zab was going off the one page of the FBI files. The subsequent page shows that these letters were retained as well. That's why the FBI had them to release to Morf in the first place.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:20 pm

Thanks, Mr. Bungle! Now that you have cleared this up, I can stop reading for a while and try to get my brain back.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:30 pm

Mr. Bungle; Mr. AK


Okay...lots to cover here...

I say it's a fake, and not a particularly good one. The paper's wrong, the pen's wrong...HOW DO WE KNOW WHAT PAPER Z WOULD USE IF HE WAS TRAVELING IN OR OUT OF STATE, OR UNDER DIFFERENT CIRCUMSTANCES? the writing isn't really that close...the message is forced...the count directly conflicts with what Zodiac would claim in authenticated letters that arrived after this one. IT IS NOT A COUNT OF PEOPLE HE IS SAYING HE HAS KILLED, BUT A THREAT TO KILL THOSE PEOPLE IN THE FUTURE. 38 THREATENED, AND THE MOST ZODIAC WOULD CLAIM IN THE 70'S WAS 37. PRETTY CLOSE.

The difference between this and the Belli letter is that, by the end of the Belli letter, Zodiac's handwriting starts to revert to something much more consistent with what we got in the earlier authenticated letters. The writing in this letter only matches up well with other letters that are more widely considered fakes.COMPARE IT TO THE 74 SLA LETTER.

To compare the handwriting to the LB car door is probably not a good way to go. Zodiac would have been squatting down and writing from a vertical base on the door, and by the time he gets to the word "knife", he's very close to ground level. In fact, the writing on the door isn't really too close to the authenticated writings either, except for the sloppiness.

AK, while the FBI noted some similarities, they certainly did not offer a "qualified endorsement". "May have been" is much different than "was" or "was certainly" or "was definitely". The fact that it was retained means nothing in its authenticity. THE FBI USES VERY CAREFUL LANGAUGE. THEY OFFERED THE EXACT SAME LANGUAGE, WORD FOR WORD, THE EXACT SAME LEVEL OF QUALIFIED ENDORSEMENT FOR THE 12/16/69 FAIRFIELD LETTER AS THEY DO FOR THE 12/20/69 BELLI LETTER.

As Nacht said, all of the letters, authenticated or not, shared some similar qualities, but not all of the letters were authenticated. I'd like to see what the similarities the FBI were speaking of, as it could clear a lot of this up.

As for the use of "help" in any of the letters, it's not exactly a stretch that a killer who is openly communicative would eventually ask for help. Many, many have. TRUE, AND THERE IS THE ISSUE OF THE DUNBAR SHOW, BUT THAT CALLER WAS EXPOSED AS A FAKE. WE HAVE THE FACT THAT THE 12/16 FAIRFIELD LETTER ASKS FOR HELP, THEN THE 12/20 BELLI LETTER ASKS FOR HELP, SOMETHING THAT ZODIAC HAD NOT DONE BEFORE. PRIOR LETTERS WERE ANGRY, CONFIDENT, TAUNTING.

Now, as to Tom having this letter 12 years ago...he probably did. I really have no reason to doubt it, as he's had connections for years now. Whether he chose to keep it on his site is his problem, not ours. I personally posted the letter at ZodiacKillerFacts yesterday, as well as the FBI page, in the questioned letters/forgeries section (it's definitely questioned, and I think it's a forgery) because, regardless of it being legitimate or not, it's part of the overall story and people would want to see it (and it's quite clear that, no matter what Tom says, most of us never saw it before). On top of all of this, our pal Robert Graysmith reported this letter in "Zodiac Unmasked" years ago as well (Chapter 17, paperback page 222). None of that matters at all. It was out there, and now, thanks to Morf & AK, the rest of us finally get a chance to see it. RIGHT! TOM HAS THE MAY 78 LETTER UP, WITH THE MANSON REFERENCE, THAT WRITING LOOKS VERY DIFFERENT FROM MOST Z WRITING, AND AS FAS AS I KNOW NO EXPERT HAS ENDORSED IT. HERE WE POST THINGS AND LET PEOPLE DECIDE.

And to AK, I'm no more or less popular on Michael's site for posting it there. I assure you, he doesn't care that it's up. HE DOESN'T SEEM TO CARE ABOUT MUCH. HE'S OK THOUGH. POST THESE FBI MEMO'S THERE AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Thu Sep 02, 2010 7:34 pm

I see some similarities between the Fairfield letters and the 1974 Zodiac SLA letter, which is a confirmed Z letter.




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