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PostSubject: Letter in FBI Files   Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:05 am

A very interesting correspondence in the FBI files. FBI file 2 page 88. Someone from Iva S.C. wrote to Hoover about the word 'Des' on the dripping pen card Nov 8th.
I have seen before Des reffered to as a German word before, also note that Brunette, Brownett in the confession letter from Brown, Brun the French derived from the German Brown, brown in German being Braun. Gareth makes mention of it as have a few others.
The letter is written on the 13th of November the Dripping pen card is sent on the 8th (anyone know when it appeared in the press.)

What interests me is the handwritten message at the top, the first time he writes Vallejo the j has a squiggle to it (best description I can give) as can be seen in the way the Zodiac wrote the j in Vallejo in his first mailing to the Times Herald and also in the original Zodiac letter where he writes Vallejo again the j has a funny squiggle. Also note the circle to the left with the dot, which resembles the one in the Bates Desktop poem.


I cannot help but wonder if the writer of the note which appears to be addressed to Hoover wrote the Vallejo handwritten address, or was this sent to the Herald and someone there wrote it.

It is very strange indeed. And does the circle with the dot mimic the 'to' we see on the desktop poem as in he is writing 'TO the Vallejo Times Herald'. The circle with the dot represents the word to, which indicates knowledge of the desktop poem possibly.

The FBI wrote back to this person, in Iva South Carolina, so I shall assume the postmark must have matched at least. If this was from the Zodiac he may well have been in South Carolina at this time, any Zod suspects with SC connections. I have placed the Vallejo Times Herald on the letter with circle and dot at the top and examples of the squiggly j below from the Zodiac's letters.

http://img819.imageshack.us/f/snapshot20100626084308.png/
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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Sat Jun 26, 2010 6:57 am

Interesting thought Solar. I could sure see Z writing to the FBI. The DP card was published in the Chronicle on the 12th.
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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:42 am

Personally,I dont think the writing looks like Z, but then again, I wouldnt be surprised if Z wrote to the FBI. Also, the writing in this letter could be Zodiac's real unaltered writing.

If they did indeed write this person back, wonder what address they sent it to?
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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:57 am

Here is something interesting.

Any Zodiac articles on the East Coast in 1969 would have likely been carried by the AP. That means that every little newspaper in South Carolina that wanted to run an article on the Zodiac, would likely carry the same AP story.

I checked from Sept 1-November 30, 1969, on Newspaperarchive for all mentions of Zodiac & Vallejo, and although there were a couple articles back in Sept, there were none in November.
Doesnt mean that there were none, and that the writer was lying about reading it, just means there wasnt any on Newspaperarchive.
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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:09 am

morf13 wrote:
Personally,I dont think the writing looks like Z, but then again, I wouldnt be surprised if Z wrote to the FBI. Also, the writing in this letter could be Zodiac's real unaltered writing.

Or the handwriting on the FBI letter is disguised. Given the length of some of the Z missives and the consistency in their printing towards the end I tend to think the sloppy stuff you see around page 2 and on is the real thing.

I'm guessing the FBI was mentioned in regard to the case, publicly, right around the first cipher so Z would have known they were involved. It's a long way to go to say this particular letter was his, but it's still an excellent idea. Back to Solar's main point, yes, the squiggle in the lower case j is interesting and I've noted in in Z's missives before, but never really paid attention to how much it occurs in random hand printing however so can't be of help there.
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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:53 am

Interesting about the Newspaper Archive not producing any results. The postmark for the Dripping pen card is 9th Nov, then when the Newspaper would get it, and then if they were given permission to release details, and if that also was the case, he states he read about it in the Anderson paper and contacts them and they tell him to contact the FBI (he addresses it to Hoover himself) but the Vallejo Times Herald is handprinted at the top. Mention of being in Germany for a year, the same symbol as used on the desktop, and it all adds up to quite a funny correspondence indeed.

I didn't mean all of the handprinting on the letter Morph, just that he made the squiggle with the j in Vallejo as the Zodiac seemed to like to do. Most other j's he doesn't but when he writes Vallejo he usually does, it caught my eye. If it was by the Zodiac I am presuming that he posted it on or around the 13th Nov from Southern Carolina. If we could place someone, anyones POI or any known suspects in Southern Carolina around that time, it would be very interesting indeed.
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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:15 am

....You could do a very specific FOIA request to the FBI just for that letter and their response, so it would not cost too much for the stuff to be reproduced...
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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:22 am

Zabagliona wrote:
....You could do a very specific FOIA request to the FBI just for that letter and their response, so it would not cost too much for the stuff to be reproduced...

Interesting idea, anyone up to the task?

Also, someone could contact the library in that town, and get their hands on the newspaper from the date mentioned by the writer, and see if the article really appeared there.
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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:10 pm

A google search for both "ZODIAC KILLER" & "SOUTH CAROLINA" produced the following:


Zodiac Killer - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community1 post - 1 author - Last post: Jan 27, 2004
Zodiac Killer Cold Cases. ... Identified, Lyle Stevik, Mystery couple murdered South Carolina 1976, Missing but not forgotten Discussion ...
www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4459 -


which leads to-


"A new suspect in San Francisco's notorious "Zodiac Killer" case was discharged from Vietnam and returned to California just three months before the unsolved serial murders began, The Post has learned.
http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/16590.htm "


Then that link is broken. I was trying to see if that suspect was from South Carolina.

We should look thru all the FBI files, and look for SOUTH CAROLINA references.
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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:43 am

THIS MAN COULD BE FRISCO'S FIENDISH ZODIAC KILLER

September 29, 2003 -- The notorious San Francisco Zodiac Killer, who mysteriously dropped out of sight almost 30 years ago after a bloody reign of terror that left five dead, may have been "hiding" in plain sight - locked away in prison for two unrelated murders.

A Post investigation unearthed "compelling" links between 54-year-old killer William Mentzer - who's serving life without the possibility of parole - and the police profile of the Zodiac Killer, the San Francisco District Attorney's Office says.

The dramatic new information has been turned over to the San Francisco Police Department, which for 35 years has searched for the fiendish killer.

"There appear to be some compelling parallels here," said Mark MacNamara, the public-information officer for the San Francisco DA. "We have given the information to the police inspectors for their review."

The Post developed the information after more than 20 hours of interviews with Mentzer at the California state prison in Lancaster.

The Post discovered two dozen links between Mentzer, who is from Los Angeles, and the Zodiac Killer.

For example:



* Investigators say the Zodiac had military training. Mentzer served in the Marines during the Vietnam War and claims 10 kills.

* The Zodiac's murders began in December 1968, shortly after Mentzer returned to California from Vietnam.

* In September 1969, the Zodiac stabbed two of his victims with a bayonet-like knife carried in a handmade sheath fastened with rivets. Mentzer said he had a job making rivets at an aerospace company around CB>the same time of the attack. He also said he carried a bayonet in Vietnam.

* The Zodiac wrote letters to the media taunting the police. Mentzer said, "It was fun to f- - - with them."

* In the letters, the Zodiac drew a diagram of a bomb and threatened to blow up a school bus. Mentzer, who once had a job driving a bus, told The Post he had military training in demolition and kept plastic explosives.

* A survivor of a Zodiac attack said the killer spoke in a slow, monotone with a slight drawl. Mentzer has the same speech pattern.

The Zodiac randomly killed five people and severely wounded two others during his spree, which began in the Bay Area in the late '60s, police said.

But in letters and cryptograms sent to the San Francisco Chronicle and Los Angeles Times, the Zodiac boasted that he had committed more than 30 other murders.

He congratulated police for uncovering a 1966 murder in Riverside, Calif., about 45 miles east of L.A. But the Zodiac ominously said, "There are a hell of a lot more down there."

He also threatened to "pick off" children as they came bounding out of their school bus.

The psychotic killer mysteriously dropped out of sight in 1974, after a final letter to the press.

Mentzer is serving a life sentence for the savage L.A. murders of New York theatrical producer Roy Radin in 1983 and of prostitute June Mincher in 1984.

Radin was shot more than 20 times in the head. Mentzer then put a small stick of dynamite in Radin's mouth, lit it and blew off his face.

When Mentzer was asked if he shot Mincher seven times in the head, he told The Post, "No, I think it was eight."

One week after the initial interviews, The Post confronted Mentzer with the information linking him to the Zodiac Killer.

"I am not the Zodiac," he fumed. "I am not some crazed killer, but I think I know who he is."

Mentzer said he met the Zodiac while they were incarcerated at the California Correctional Institution in Tehachapi in the early '90s. He described the Zodiac as a 240-pound black man. Police say the Zodiac is white.

After Mentzer was handed the Zodiac links, he began to read the document as his forearms pulsated. He spent about 15 minutes reviewing the information accusing him of being the Zodiac Killer, and made five minor corrections and one significant change.

Mentzer noted that in 1966, he was based at Camp Pendleton in Oceanside, Calif., which is near Riverside.

The Riverside killing mentioned in the Zodiac letter took place a few months before Mentzer left for Vietnam. There were no reported Zodiac murders until Mentzer returned to California about two years later.

http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11057&sid=bac17aa7f1852e33dc2c4f54959d7da4
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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:42 am

Mentzer is interesting. Some called him "Manson II" and it is said he had some ties to Charles Manson. It is a fact he was connected to major drug dealers and also, apparently, people involved in occult networks.

You can read more about Mentzer and the Roy Radin hit he was convicted for in Maury Terry's Ultimate Evil.

That book also has information about the 10/12/74 murder at Stanford of Arlis Perry.

Interesting that he was stationed in Camp Pendleton, not too far from Riverside, in 1966. Then he is in Vietnam, but 3 months after he comes back to CA, we have the 12/20/68 Zodiac murder.

One thing against him is it appears that his known murders were for money - he was a hitman. However, that does not totally exclude the possibility of him doing a murder for a non money reason.

Another odd thing is that Hollywood movie producer Robert Evans was questioned in the Radin case. Evans produced classic movies like Chinatown and also Rosemary's Baby, directed by Roman Polanksi. Of course it was the Polanksi house that the Manson Family hit, and his wife, Sharon Tate, that they murdered.

I don't see Mentzer having the intelligence to be Zodiac, or the code knowledge. But he is a killer, had occult ties, and no doubt killed more people than what he was convicted for.

He also bragged about killing Radin and one other hit. Hard to see him as the secretive Zodiac.

He doesn't look much like the sketch but nothing to rule him out either.

He might merit further examination, because unlike many proposed "suspects" this guy was a cold blooded killer, had military and explosives training and ties to occult groups.




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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:56 am

Mentzer is certainly interesting. I was thinking about this letter again a few days ago, the Chronicle published the details of the letter on the twelfth and I don't see them giving other papers the scoop until after they published it themselves. So on the day he supposedly reads it this man phones the paper (Anderson Mail) then writes to the FBI, without including details of what the term 'Des" means in German. Given the talk about the Atlanta child murders etc and that the Zodiac certainly got around, one other thing popped up. This letter was postmarked the 13th from Iva, Sc. The very next day on the 14th down the coast at the Kennedy Space Centre the Apollo 12 was launched. I wonder if he was his way to watch the launch. David and Betty Lou were killed hours before the Apollo 8 took off, we have the stamp and I think it's a good possibillity he was a fan of the space programme. Why not post a wee note to the FBI on your way to Florida.
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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:10 pm

Sort of like how Zodiac gave police a helpful hint that "SLA" meant "KILL" in Norse...
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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:12 pm

Can you post the entire letter?
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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:26 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:26 pm

Here is a link, I was interested in the writing, but I see some similar writing upon other correspondence so that must be the FBI that wrote Vallejo Times Herald etc. But it was the content that got me. He wrote this on the 13th (Or at least posted it) and states he read it in his Anderson paper the night before, which meant they must have published it on the twelfth. It was published in the Chronicle on the 12th, why give other papers the scoop. Why write to the FBI (J, Edgar himself) and not the SFPD, why would the Anderson Mail publish this on the same day as the Chronicle, who had been sent it and had all the scoops. Doesn't make sense. http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/7483/snapshot20100913171657.png

Iva is a tad out of the way, but follow the route on Google and the next day down the coast the Apollo 12 mission took off. It is certainly interesting his timing. (And I believe this is from the Z, I think he contacted the FBI and LE a number of times.)
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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:27 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:29 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:30 pm

What does "DES" mean in German?
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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:30 pm

Cheers Ak for putting it up, I haven't mastered that yet lol:)

Also Morph did a search and couldn't find record of this article by the Anderson DM, also why would someone assume the Des was not the killers name, why would the paper report the 'Des' part as a signature, when it clearly was not. The note doesn't make sense. Except that it relates details of the dripping pen card that I feel the writer didn't read about in the paper he states he did!

I think the Apollo launch is a possibillity also that perhaps he had friends/relatives in Sc.
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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:38 pm

I think it means 'of the' or to get the gist of something. Along those lines.
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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:57 pm



Concerning the Nov 8th, 1969 Dripping Pen card:

Zodiac wrote:

Des July Aug
Sept Oct = 7

December in german is spelled; Dezember, so that, IMO, is NOT what Zodiac refered to.

However in norwegian, swedish and danish, December is spelled; Desember, so "Des" would be short for Decemeber in this 3 languishes.

Due to that Zodiac later refered to "old norse" in his the Feb 14, 1974 "SLA, old norse " letter, I presume it is possible that he refered to the norwegian spelling of Desember in his Nov 8th, 1969 Dripping Pen card .
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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:12 pm

AK Wilks wrote:
What does "DES" mean in German?

I dont think the author of the letter was writing in German when he wrote "DES" but FWIW it means "the".

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/
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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:01 pm

Jon55 wrote:
AK Wilks wrote:
What does "DES" mean in German?

I dont think the author of the letter was writing in German when he wrote "DES" but FWIW it means "the".

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/

Nope, "the" would translate "das" in German ;actually it would be "der", "die" or "das", depending on the "gender" of the noun you are using, not "des". There is a "des" in German that would capture the posessive artical of a noun: The toy of the child = Das Spielzeug des Kindes

-Nin
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PostSubject: Re: Letter in FBI Files   Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:05 am

Solar Pons wrote:
Mentzer is certainly interesting. I was thinking about this letter again a few days ago, the Chronicle published the details of the letter on the twelfth and I don't see them giving other papers the scoop until after they published it themselves. So on the day he supposedly reads it this man phones the paper (Anderson Mail) then writes to the FBI, without including details of what the term 'Des" means in German. Given the talk about the Atlanta child murders etc and that the Zodiac certainly got around, one other thing popped up. This letter was postmarked the 13th from Iva, Sc. The very next day on the 14th down the coast at the Kennedy Space Centre the Apollo 12 was launched. I wonder if he was his way to watch the launch. David and Betty Lou were killed hours before the Apollo 8 took off, we have the stamp and I think it's a good possibillity he was a fan of the space programme. Why not post a wee note to the FBI on your way to Florida.

Solar, I am revisiting this topic because my POI possibly had relatives in North Carolina. The space launch thing is interesting. I have not been able to secure the Anderson paper from Iva SC. But I did find an AP story that appeared that day 200 miles away in North Carolina. It was in the High Point Enterprise (The city where my POI possibly had relatives, still trying to confirm the relationship, if any).

But this newspaper clearly shows a 12/12/69 AP story mentioning the DES as written by Zodiac. The article makes it a point to explain what Police think the DES meant. Perhaps this letter really is from someone that legitimately read the article & wants to help. On the other hand, it does sound like the SLA letter from Zodiac.


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