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 "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER

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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:00 am

Theforeigner wrote:


Concerning wheter the Melvin Belli letter was a true Zodiac letter:

Could there be any doubt? there was a piece of Paul Stines bloody shirt in that letter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Killer

On December 20, 1969, exactly one year after the murders of David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen, the Zodiac mailed a letter to Belli, including another swatch of Stine's shirt; the Zodiac claimed he wanted Belli to help him.

No doubt, the Belli writer was Z, no other way to explain the shirt pieces
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:03 am

morf13 wrote:
Theforeigner wrote:


Concerning wheter the Melvin Belli letter was a true Zodiac letter:

Could there be any doubt? there was a piece of Paul Stines bloody shirt in that letter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Killer

On December 20, 1969, exactly one year after the murders of David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen, the Zodiac mailed a letter to Belli, including another swatch of Stine's shirt; the Zodiac claimed he wanted Belli to help him.

No doubt, the Belli writer was Z, no other way to explain the shirt pieces

The way I would put it is this: There is no doubt that the writer of the Belli letter killed Paul Stine, because he sent in a bit of the bloody shirt. That the writer of the Belli letter is Zodiac is established by the handwriting on the letter.

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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:15 am

And remember that when the letter was sent there wasnt any Zodiac boards around.
It would be easier to falsify a letter nowdays. We know that he used certain stamps.
We know all the things thats been disscussed for the last decade. Or more.
About the writing, the tone etc.
Since some of the letter had complete adresses there is no telling which real or fake upon that.
Ofcourse if you know that much about the case to make a good fake you would know he usually left out the complete adress.
I dont think anyone can dissmiss or confirm the letter yet.
Great to have it posted anyways.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Fri Sep 03, 2010 11:18 am

Zamantha wrote:
On the Old ZodiacZee forum there was quite alot of discussion of the "POSSIBLE" Occult PI connection. I understand this is not a fact, but just another theory. But
it seems to me that is all we really have at this time. I'm just thinkin of all possible angles/theories. 4 satellite Celtic crosses surrounding the large one could indicate indicate 4P/4 PI.
What does the 4 Zodiac Cross mean to you? Or does anyone else have an idea......... Seems like a clew to me.

I don't know what it means!

If this is a hoaxer it could just be his way of trying to be like the mysterious Zodiac.

Four crosshair - circle/crosses around a big one - I just don't know what that could mean.

There are also five code symbols, six if you count the crosshair in line with them.

If you just apply the Harden Code Key you get:

Y I N H N D

Or:

S I N H N D

With a possible mistake on the part of "Zodiac" or a mistake by me, I thought maybe it was just a simple message of:

"Signed, Zodiac"

But it could also be triangle with dot was an "S" then "A" switch in the first Zodiac code, giving you:

Y S/A N H N D

For which you could anagram SANDY HN, and "SANDY" was the given name of a suspect in the possible Zodiac crime of Santa Barbara 1963, Domingos and Edwards. Except, unfortunately, it doesn't really work because a "switch" is usually one or the other, back and forth, not both (S/A).

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PostSubject: letters   Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:02 pm

I have seen many Z like letters, some were shown to me by Tom V. They were all very good, and believable. There are certain characteristics that the experts see, that the average person wouldn't notice.
In one of the conversations I had by phone with Dave Toschi in the early 70's, he told me that the Zodiac had a strange way of sealing his envelopes. I haven't read or heard this ever again. if this is true and I have no reason to disbelieve him. Then Z did this so that LE would know if it was him or a copy cat.
I have seen so many Z letters that I have become pretty good at recognising the real ones. True his printing did change with what ever mood he was in at the time he would write them. But certain things he did didn't change.

Mr Bungle mentioned that the Z never used lined paper, Bruce 3 knew differently as did a few others. The z used lined paper in the Riverside letters.
I have always wondered if the lined paper was taken from Cheri Jo , the night she was killed ? It wouldn't surprise me at all , that the Z would have done that, with his in your face personality.
Or he did it to make the police think, that it was a student who wrote the letters ?

I am in no way close to being a hand writing expert, but then the experts that I have read about concerning Z letters, are not that proficient either. So far the notes I have received by the man who is or pretends to be the Zodiac, these experts have been 50/50 on those notes. I have seen that happen with the other known Z notes.
I looked very closely at the ones shown here, and I do believe that they are in fact written by the Zodiac. Sure its easy to try and copy his printing, but he has certain strokes most miss when they copy. The envelopes should have the strange way of sealing them according to Dave Toschi.

The cipher shown with the large Z logo that has 4 of them surrounding it, tells me that the clues I have been given over the yrs, are 4 people connected working in tandem. This letter also suggests that to be true.
A po box belonging to Darlene's sister Pam in Pittsburg Ca. , had the clue R P H + ME with small Z logos under each initial (again the number 4).
Have you noticed that Zodiac used the 4th letter of the alphabet D ,as also his logo ? This can be verified by looking at the solved ciphers.

Regardless of if I am wrong or not about these letters , I think its a good idea to put everything out on the table to be looked at. Sharing is the only way we can get everything together, with out the infantile bashing ! Why waste energy with negativity ? It can only deplete the brains power. To coin the phrase : "Knowledge is power"
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:54 pm

sandy betts wrote:
I looked very closely at the ones shown here, and I do believe that they are in fact written by the Zodiac. Sure its easy to try and copy his printing, but he has certain strokes most miss when they copy. The envelopes should have the strange way of sealing them according to Dave Toschi.

I would think if there was a special way Zodiac sealed the envelopes, it would be known with this letter and it would have been put on the list of confirmed letters.

This letter was sent during the height of Zodiac's letters. If it were years later, I might question the change in style.

Zodiac told us he was no longer going to announce who he killed or was going to kill...and I believe him.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:01 pm

Sandy,
Thank you for your message.What did Toschi mean a strange way of sealing his letters?Did he place the flap after it was moistened into the envelope and seal it to the letter or what? Or did Z just seal half of the flap? You would think the FBI would have noted this 'strange' procedure.

Can't figure that out.I know there was no DNA on flaps on real Z letters.The April '78 did have DNA on the flap.

As far as this letter/s goes DNA testing should be done.The stamp would be important.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:50 pm

Quote :
Mr Bungle mentioned that the Z never used lined paper, Bruce 3 knew differently as did a few others. The z used lined paper in the Riverside letters.

You're assuming that Zodiac murdered Cheri Jo Bates. In reality, there is no real proof that he did, other than his taking belated credit for it. There's also no proof he actually wrote the letters. It's all assumptions. It's not as if Zodiac never lied in his letters or took false credit for murders he did not commit. I stand by my statement.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:46 pm

Bungle,
This case is full of unknowns even amongst experts so there are debatable issues such as the Bates case.The '66 envelopes were written by Z according to Morrell CA State Examiner who was world authority on Z's writing.He also said the three '67 notes were authored by young Z too.I accept his expertise so for me it' s' done.For you it's not -so we move on here.
The '66 Confession contents after I studied them off/on since '87 is Z as compared to his 69-74 series.There are some who don't accept all or even some of the '74 missives so there you go on another debable issue.1/29/74 does seem more acceptable to some though.
I don't leave reseaching these contraversial cases or letters as it may be a Z and may yield some clue -who knows?

All of the Z elements are there even to using "twich",etc. Gives warnings to an entire city as did Z later ,demanding the letter to be published,giving crime details,the 'game,'sending letter/s to the newspaper,envelope details,etc.,etc.
He used antidetection techiques as did Z.I think the Bates case shows Z's ability to remain undetected as we have with canonical murders.My thought only MTO

More exotic -so dump fast- as late Z expert since '68 Dave Peterson and I agreed on this:there was a full moon,there were 'water' connections that some,but not all,of course,have observed-Riverside CC/Riverside Dr.where old car-no doubt the killers- was parked 10/30/66.
Examples:Riverside;Lake Herman Road,SB victims were next to beach/water;Blue Rock Springs;Lake Berryessa;Washington St.;Lake Tahoe.Vallejo was called "Water town."Call from LB at Carwash and river next to it.Since h called himself "Zodiac" it would seem he had some interest in such things,but it's all speculation,of course.Water or it's symbolism is part of the occult.There ware three water signs in astrology.Dave noted that zodiac killed when there were a lot of planets transiting in water signs.An astrologer I got to look up charts,etc.and observed the same thing when he looked at Z kill times.There are three in earth,three in air and three in fire signs.FYI

CII and other CA State reports affirm CJB as a Z victim Now,if one is RSPD it's a no go!

Crime was with a knife on a young female.Z used a knife at LB and killed a young female.Z did not always attack couples as we know.Paul Stine is one example.
Z did not claim responsibilty in a normal fashion,but he said they "stumbled" on my 'Riverside activity.'It was like he begrudged them of their discovery.

KJ,DL,RD,LE(SB) will be argued about till the end of Z time too.

Of course,none of this forensically proves Z killed Cheri.We have those who do not accept LHR even LB either as Zer's.Some hold to SB as Z as I do,but some do not.It goes on and on with this unsolved complicated case.

The same holds true with Jack the Ripper case.Scholars argue as to who and who wasn't a JTR victim and this goes for the canonicity of letters too.I have feared this would end up a 'Ripper' as one retired detective said.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:37 pm

Bruce,

Morrill also authenticated the fake '78 letter. Many of his findings have been disputed. The only thing that really looks like Z handwriting on the '67 letters is the "ATTN: Editor" from the Hautz letter. We already know he didn't write the Hautz letter itself, so the chances he is responsible for "ATTN: Editor" are very, very slim.

The typed confession does have a Zodiac feel to it, but I'm sure that would hold true to many other letters written by murderers or simply deranged copycats. The "demand" that it be published was laid out more as a suggestion, as opposed to Zodiac, who made no bones that the letters be published or he'd keep killing. Zodiac wasn't the first or last to send letters to the press. I'm not saying it couldn't have been Zodiac, just that there's nothing that solidifies it as being Zodiac.

You mention "anti-detection techniques"...care to explain further here? And please, the whole "water connection" thing is tenuous at best.

You act as if Bates is generally accepted as a Zodiac victim outside of Riverside, and that is simply not a fact. If it was, then Bates would be widely listed as a Zodiac victim, and she is not. All of the respected websites list her as a "possible" victim, as they should. Once again, this is not to say Zodiac definitely didn't kill Bates, just that the evidence doesn't support this definitively.

I'm not even getting into Johns, Lass and the rest...hell, there's no proof Lass was even murdered, much less murdered by Zodiac!

My point is that you have to look at what is definitive in this case. That would mean you start with the '69 letters and the LHR murder. From '69 on, Zodiac used the same paper and felt tip pens. This letter shares neither of those things. Belli's letter is right after this and he uses the exact same techniques as the accepted letters. Why would he suddenly change for this one letter? Why no piece of Stine's shirt? We know Zodiac has more than enough left to have send a piece, as he did with Belli's. Even the other Fairfield fakes are more reminiscent of the genuine letters than this! That's not even taking into account that the handwriting isn't close enough and the message doesn't really jive with the authenticated letters. What's more, this letter had to have been seen by other handwriting experts, and I'd have to assume that Morrill and Shimoda had an opportunity to look at it since they had a shot at all of the others, yet neither of them (or anyone else) authenticated it.

When you look at the real deal facts, this letter cannot be considered viable.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:49 pm

IMHO this one is fake. Too many dissimilarities for me.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:14 pm

Yeppers, Zodio, I agree, and Mr. Bungle...you read my mind....wow....Smile
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PostSubject: Observations   Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:13 pm

The letter is definitely fascinating as well as all the other member insights and findings. Zam brought my attention to the new find and after I shared my thoughts with her on it, she implored me to share my observations with the other members.

One thing that did pop out for me was the 4 satellite Celtic crosses surrounding the large one, which for me indicates the 4P-4 Pi-Process Church trademark sigil and pattern. Also, this Zodiac mania of "You better Print" this and that, may have nothing to do with a patent narcissism, but may instead be a public message to either a remote handler or someone possibly directing the terror/murder spree as an operation. It could also represent a symbolic marking of territory.

A part of the letter reads "... I will go for the Government life so don't foreget (sic) me" which seems to indicate that that he is declaring a retirement or change of pattern, but a continuation of his twisted 'mission'. It does not mean he's going to kill government personnel of any sort in my opinion. He spells 'Government' with an initial cap which denotes a respect for the institution which may have been an instilled trait. The author of the letter also writes on the lined compositional paper in a manner that depicts someone who learned to write straight on the lines late in life. The poor spelling which I once thought might be a code in and of itself, also reflects this. It's almost child-like and is very reminiscent of Manson family writings which also contained simple errors i.e. Healter Skelter written on the wall at the Tate murder scene.

So far that's my take on it.

- RD
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:41 am

Clearly there is something different about the writing in the Fairfield letters than most other Z communication of that time. As the FBI puts it, they see "distortion" and say they were not "written as freely". But they also note matching characteristics and say the Fairfield letters "may have" been prepared by the Zodiac, which is exactly the same langauge the FBI analyst used in regard to the Riverside writing - a lukewarm endorsement. Graysmith wrote these off as copycats.

Was Zodiac in a difficult position when he wrote these letters? Was he traveling in a car, writing on his knee, as opposed to sitting at a desk? Was he intentionally altering his style, as he had done and would do again? Or are these just the work of a very busy and perhaps insane hoaxer?

Why did he pick Fairfield? What is significant about that place? Just random? A train was derailed in Fairfield.

What leans me towards perhaps being real is something I don't see the critics here or on other boards addressing. If the Fairfield letter is fake, why does the cry for help match what came 13 days later in a confirmed Zodiac letter, the Belli letter, which also asked for help? Just coincidence? Lucky guess? How would a hoaxer know the real Zodiac would pick up on the Dunbar fake?

Also at the time of the Fairfield letters Zodiac had not made a point of threatening police, other than a joke that if cops believed his bus plan they deserved to have "holes in their heads". Both Fairfield letters threaten police - and in the 4/20/70 confirmed Zodiac letter, Z says "there is more glory in killing a cop than a (kid)". And Zodiac later hinted he killed Officer Radetich. Once again, the hoaxer made a lucky guess in predicting Zodiac would explicitly threaten police?

Also, the letter threatens to kill 9 people in Sacramento, and threatens lives of government employees. Two of the next probable Zodiac victims, Hakari and Bennallack, were Sacramento residents, and Bennallack a government employee, a court reporter. So, for a third time, the hoaxer got lucky?

These may well be fake, but I think these issues are serious signs pointing that they could be real, and I have yet to see the critics, here or on other boards, address them.

If the Fairfield/Sacramento letters are real, was Z trying to create a new (false) persona? To make police think he was a Fairfield or Sacramento resident, into astrology, obsessed with killing cops, mentally ill and wanting help (that theme of which was continued in the Belli letter)?

Also good to keep in mind Z had many different styles.





Also, something I don't see discussed much, the FBI handwriting expert, who has better quality versions and knowledge we don't, concludes that "ALL" the letters sent to the FBI at that point in time were "PROBABLY" done by "one person", and he specifically inlcudes the Fairfield letters.

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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Sat Sep 04, 2010 11:28 am

AK

I think that when the FBI said this letter was not "written as freely" as some of the others they meant the author labored over this one more..........ie........instead of getting on a roll and writing out the letter the author concentrated on each letter. Thats my opinion and its what I see in the letter as well...........it does not flow freely like some of the more "confirmed" letters.

I am still on the fence regarding this communique..........somewhere around 50/50 in any case it is very interesting.

Mr Bungle
I am reading your counterpoints with great interest and I will adress one of them now. Your point that z always used the same paper and pen is a good one..........however..........z in my mind is the serial killer that broke all the rules...........just when you have his MO pegged as "likes to gun down young lovers" he uses a knife.............then he kills a lone cabbie. It is also obvious to me that he sees himself as a master of misinformation............the bomb threat is a great example of this. So if in the future this letter is somehow "confirmed" it would be just another example of z breaking his pattern............I do think he was/is a smart man but not genuis level.........one of the smartest things he did was keep breaking that patteren.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:09 pm

AK, your handwriting comparisons sheet is highly misleading. You're including many exemplars that are may not be Zodiac in the first place (including the fairly obvious Hautz cursive) and a few that simply were not authenticated in any way whatsoever! Also, including the cipher writing is a bad idea, as it really isn't "handwriting" and was obviously very carefully done to form the tight block style.

Just because there are some similar things in the Fairfield letters when compared to the genuine ones doesn't mean that this strengthens the case towards them being genuine. If you think logically, why wouldn't a crazed murderer target cops? It's not as if Zodiac hadn't explicitly shown his hatred for police before this! Why wouldn't he declare his need for help (which has happened many times in similar cases)? These are things that are purely coincidental because anyone could have come up with them! I wouldn't even call that "lucky", I'd call that "natural progression" and a logical jump. You say we haven't been addressing these things...well, you should go back and read a bit, as Tahoe and I have both discussed this. You're also assuming Zodiac "picked up on" the Dunbar show for his help plea. Isn't it more logical that he simply wanted help?

You're also trying to connect murders that are NOT confirmed to be associated with Zodiac to prove the letters as genuine. That's a really slippery slope there. The further you go outside the realm of fact only distorts the case. You bring up Sacramento and "probable" victims, yet there's simply no evidence that Zodiac was involved in these murders. Could he have been? Possibly. But there's nothing that proves this! You site that this letter writer would kill 9, yet can only come up with 3 possible victims and can't show how they are connected. If you try hard enough, I'm sure you can find murders in all the places this letter writer mentions, but it still does not prove this writer had anything to do with any of them!

You're also relying far too much on small bits of text in the FBI files that mention a "possibility" of one writer while totally dismissing the opinions of Morrill (who admittedly had his own doubters) and Shimoda, the two men who authenticated the letters that are widely accepted as genuine (this letter not being one of them). No one's ignoring the FBI stuff, we're just not accepting it as the be all, end all of this letter. I don't care if "this is the best the FBI does", they leave room for doubt, while Morrill and Shimoda didn't. You're right, they gave this letter the same lukewarm endorsement as the Riverside letters, and with good reason...they may all not be from Zodiac!

As I stated earlier, if you stick with the absolutely indisputable Zodiac writings ('69-74), then this letter has no merit. Once you try to use disputed letters to prove another disputed letter, you're heading down a truly troubled path, and nothing can be solved. The same goes with trying to use disputed crimes.

Jon, just saw you posted as I was writing this, so I'll address some of your concerns...

"Not as freely written" means that the handwriting is most likely not his natural writing. When you write freely, your writing has certain "tells"...in this case, the writer either tried to disguise his handwriting or tried to copy Zodiac's...I go for the latter.

As for "breaking the pattern", while he did this with the crimes themselves, he really stuck with the plain paper or greeting cards ('69 to '74, again...the confirmed, no-doubt letters) and felt tip pens. This was as much of his signature as the crosshair symbol itself. It doesn't make sense for me that he'd try to break the pattern like this, only to go right back to his normal style, which he then stuck with in the remaining definite letters. That and the handwriting doesn't match. And there's nothing in the text of the letter that really jives with Zodiac's style.

I'd say it's just me, but there are others that agree with me too.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:12 pm

I am interested in this message whether or not it was from the Zodiac.

This message is a threat and it could have been sent by a different killer.

Maybe it would be possible to link this message to different murders, not necessarily the ones committed by the Zodiac.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:35 pm

Ricardo wrote:
......I am interested in this message whether or not it was from the Zodiac..........
Me too.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Sat Sep 04, 2010 12:47 pm

Rufus T Firefly wrote:
Ricardo wrote:
......I am interested in this message whether or not it was from the Zodiac..........
Me too.

Me three Smile Like a Star @ heaven
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:03 pm

Me four (to some extent...).

The FBI files, however, clearly indicate that the newly found letter and "Bleeding knife" drawing are part of the same communication, postmarked from Fairfield, CA on 12/16/69. I posted a comparison of this and other letters from Fairfield on Mike's site for discussion:

12/16/69:



12/7/69:



1971:



I think all of these letters seem very much alike in both handwriting and tone and have a certain derivative quality unlike confirmed Zodiac letters. Of interest is the boasting of dozens of new victims all over the Bay area in the 12/16/69 (including Fairfield) while Zodiac wrote a confirmed letter to Belli from San Francisco just four days talking about taking his "nineth and possibly tenth victom".
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:59 pm

entropy wrote:
I think all of these letters seem very much alike in both handwriting and tone and have a certain derivative quality unlike confirmed Zodiac letters. Of interest is the boasting of dozens of new victims all over the Bay area in the 12/16/69 (including Fairfield) while Zodiac wrote a confirmed letter to Belli from San Francisco just four days talking about taking his "nineth and possibly tenth victom".

Just to clarify, you meant FUTURE victims...and this I agree with. He'd have gone from talking about all the people he planned to kill to asking for help so he didn't go for 9 or 10. The Belli letter certainly makes it seems as though Zodiac wasn't planning ahead...this letter makes it seem as though he's got it all planned out. Once again, this doesn't jive with a genuine Zodiac letter.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:02 pm

Entropy -

He is NOT boasting of 38 new murders, he is threatening 38 new murders in the future.

As Rufus points out, eventually Z would claim 37.

Bungle I have no problem if you don't think this is a real Z letter. You make some good points..SFPD apparently did not think it real, FBI says "may" then says "probably".

As for threatening cops, what previous serial killer went from killing couples or women to cops? None that I know of. Perhaps the "hoaxer" made a lucky guess, but he was right on the real Z threatening cops, and asking for help and perhaps killing in Sacramento.

Food for thought...for me, anyway. Maybe not for you, and others, which is fine.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:07 pm

AK, he meant future victims, which is what he psoted at ZKF. I was correcting him, but we posted at basically the same time Smile

As for the cops thing, it was well known that Zodiac had an issue with cops and called them out in his letters. Making a threat would not be a huge leap of faith.
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:39 pm

Maybe... Smile
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PostSubject: Re: "THIS STATE IS IN TROUBLE" LETTER   Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:50 pm

Yes, by "new" I meant future victims. I presume that's what the letter-writer (whoever it was) is indicating by stating "I will kill in...".

Thanks for the clarification.
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Zodiackillersite :: Unconfirmed Zodiac Letters & Mailings General Discussion-
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