"I was once a roommate of the Zodiac Killer" Roommate was Jim Crabtree

Qz1 wrote:

He has been evasive, squirrely, of all Z's female victims Darlene was the only one who had been married. He was her ex-husband. She was promiscuous. She left him. He looks like the composite. The Zodiac sent a Phillips 66 road map. He seems to have "dropped out" shortly after the murders commenced. Z disappeared and he was living off the grid in a teepee. Very suspicious.

All he has is an inconsistent, questionable alibi and a cursory dismissal by an overwhelmed and somewhat inept police force in Vallejo. Or Solano County Sheriffs office or whom ever.

Much more has been made suspects or personal persons of interest with a lot less.

He actually makes the perfect POI when you consider all of the above and The Foreigner's post.
We all paid very close attention to his posts on the old ZodiacZee forum and caught him in what appeared to be some untruths, or total forgetfulness.
We also saw just how much he disliked Darlene. That bothered a lot of us. He seemed personable and friendly until the situation started to steam up...then we saw him quite upset. I realize he was upset because he was asked tough questions and yes Zig/Rick put up his picture to piss him off and boy did that work... He blew! Not that any of us haven't seen his picture before. Just thinking since he agreeded to come to the forum and talk to us that he had to expect and be prepared for some controversy. If I were him I would of continued to post on the forum and ease everyone's possible suspicion. Disclaimer: I not saying its him! All I'm saying is I wanted to hear more for possible closure...we didn't get that
PS makes one wonder, was he set up with that Phillips 66 Map as that's a lot of coincidence.

Heck, Darlene's husband at the time would have had more motive than Jim.

***

I don't think Mike described Jim Phillips/Crabtree. Therefore, he would have had to hire someone. Possible? Sure. Plausable? Not so much.

While Jim still showed his disdain for Darlene in 2010, hiring someone to kill her is extreme and he would need good reason. He didn't seem upset about the divorce. So, I'm with AK in regards to motive.

I think most aren't too fond of their ex's. That's why they are ex's.

In a letter I read from Fred S. DOJ in Sacramento to David T SFPD. It was right after Paul Stine was killed that they went after Crabtree, because they thought he was living in SF, and had lived in Vallejo. But because of how large they felt the Zodiac was from the evidence at Lake B. , Crabtree was no longer a suspect.
Thanks to TF for keeping some of the questions and answers from the Zodiac Zee site, I think Zam kept some also ?
I asked Jim who was Honcho ? (Someone using the name Honcho, is who went with them to NY and the Virgin Islands) His answer was maybe Darlene's dog ? I wanted to ask him who was the man he stayed with in Mexico , but the site was shut down by Jim, before I could ask.
My thoughts about Honcho ( As in head Honcho )is that he could be the Zodiac. That could be the person Darlene said she saw kill someone. It was thought that she saw that murder in the Virgin Islands.

Just wondering ... was the poster positively JC or could the poster have been an impostor?

patinky wrote:

Just wondering ... was the poster positively JC or could the poster have been an impostor?

It was definitely the real Crabtree, I exchanged some emails with him. Without disclosing the exact things he wrote about Darlene in his emails to me, I would certainly say that BITTER' comes to mind,as to how he felt about Darlene. I don't think she was a favorite person of his.

morf13 wrote:

patinky wrote:

Just wondering ... was the poster positively JC or could the poster have been an impostor?

It was definitely the real Crabtree, I exchanged some emails with him. Without disclosing the exact things he wrote about Darlene in his emails to me, I would certainly say that BITTER' comes to mind,as to how he felt about Darlene. I don't think she was a favorite person of his.

Yes. I concur...the real deal.

I trust both your opinions. Thanks for the quick response.

Sooooo .... maybe Crabtree's memory failed him but decades later he sure remembered a lot of details about July 4, 1969. Surely he had not forgotten that his vehicle was supposedly not running.

Didn't Darlene make some comments about whoever it was who pulled up beside her and Mageau? Something on the order of "oh, don't worry about it ... it's nobody important."(my paraphrasing)

Don´t forget that Crabtree was a trained cryptographer & that he was in the "airborne regiment" etc, etc:

Jim Crabtree posted on Zodiaczee Feb 22, 2010:

Quote:

"First day of the military I’m told I’m special because of the stability and position of my family. I am offered work in the top secret field of cryptography, once I get through basic training. A secret clearance within a week… Top Secret before I’m out of basic. Then on to crypto school… none of your business where… just before graduation from the crypto school I am asked to join a very special group, which I accept and go on to the 16-week training leading to Pineville… you who know… know.. you who don’t… don’t… it doesn’t matter to this story…"



And here, from the same post, info by JC that he was in the "airborne regiment" :

I was immediately picked up, limp… and placed in the back of a military police car and taken to the stockade. After a somewhat less than congenial meeting with the commanding officer of the stockade, represented in the person of an underfed captain outside of the airborne regiment to which I belonged, have a little fit of pounding his desk and racking all his desk objects on the floor, I knew we were ready for some serious partying… finally… music!



Here is the entire JC's Feb 22, 2010 JC post:



JIM_CRABTREE Post subject: Re: Jim Crabtree Thread

Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:20 pm

... and now, for something completely different...


Let's kinda go back to some foundational stuff....

As if any of this were anyones business but my own… sheesh… get real… After I get done, I want everyone to write, in detail, about their life for the public to gnaw on…

Orphaned by both parents before I was four years old. Watched my precious daddy die of TB right before my eyes. Raised in Shasta, California by my father’s sister and her husband… Diamond Bell Phillips one of the first three California Highway Patrolman appointed by the Governor of California in 1929. Both now dead… both now dragged out on the OptDork site… I’m sure you can feel the heat of my animosity towards the people who have denigrated these fine people who took my broken soul into their home, fed me, clothed me and loved me for 17 years.

D.B. Phillips rode a motorcycle for 20 years for the CHP and spent years in the hospital due to injuries inflicted upon him by his service. We may have had some minor issues… but you of degenerate moral character…you without the sense that God gave a stone, drag his name out onto the internet and degrade him… you have just started a war.

So….let me cool down…

I'm 17 (TF note: 1961) and fed up with school and the very, very small town and group of people I've known since kindergarten. So, I get together with a bunch of my buddies and we all go down to the recruiting station where they sign up for the Marines... Yippee...

I immediately walked across the room and signed up for the army... really... I had finally broken the small town curse and was out in the world on my own... finally no one but me knew what I had for breakfast! It was exhilarating.

First day of the military I’m told I’m special because of the stability and position of my family. I am offered work in the top secret field of cryptography, once I get through basic training. A secret clearance within a week… Top Secret before I’m out of basic. Then on to crypto school… none of your business where… just before graduation from the crypto school I am asked to join a very special group, which I accept and go on to the 16-week training leading to Pineville… you who know… know.. you who don’t… don’t… it doesn’t matter to this story…

I am on my way to a career in the State Department, CIA or the foreign service… yippee.. havin’ fun now! Small town kid makes it in the big city…

I spent my time at the largest communications center in Europe, balanced by a great deal of war games throughout Europe… face down in the mud playing the role of aggressors, unannounced, and inserted into war games already in progress… we were the fun element… those who know… know… don’t write it down on this discussion group… it doesn’t matter…

While I was in the comm. center I experienced the Cuban missile crisis… yippee, a whole ten days with ordnance, ammo, a crypto machine between my legs and a plane warming up on the tarmac. Good times…

“Inside” I witnessed extended discussions between commanders in Washington DC and those ‘in the field’ about Vietnam…still in the formative stages… the argument was livid, extensive and a huge problem for many generals, including my commanding general for whom I had the greatest admiration and respect….my mind was in knots… top secret knots… This is mouth shut stuff… In addition, I found myself in the crypto room when Kennedy was killed. Public information… classified information.. things no fit.. bad timeline… lots of pieces wrong… big, big problem…. ( TF note : November 22, 1963)

My world fell apart. I cannot, on this list write why, but information came across that led me to believe I had made some very, very serious misjudgments about my country. My life began to fall apart. I was sick unto the soul. Something had to be done.

I knew if I left the military I would be just another person floating around looking for a job… and my skillset, ahem, was only valuable at the lowest level of society.

So… I knew in my heart and mind my commander was correct, but nothing could be said. You do not buck the military command structure… On the other hand… wrenching news… I knew I had to address the military, face to face, in a public manner… from a position inside the system… So… I reenlisted for six years and promptly went AWOL for six months and one day… qualifying me for the top prize… deserter.

I turned myself in on Governor’s Island…. accompanied by my Quaker lawyer… all dressed up for the prom and ready to party.

While I was establishing my deserter status and considering exactly how I was going to talk to a General Courts Martial board… (well thought out, as usual) I contacted the Quakers to explore Conscientious Objector status… just groping for how I could conduct my, inevitable, confrontation with the military.

The Quakers counseled me and really turned on the lights for me… “The only reason for war is profit and making money..” …. OMG! Egad! Really?!!.... You mean it’s not for God, country, pride and just plain Saturday night fun killin’ zipperheads? I’ve been misinformed! Again…

The Quakers agreed to work with me, but before anything could be said I had to lay down my arms and swear my life over to peace from that moment forward… It was a very serious consideration in my life… and I thought about it a lot… Then it came… at that instant I saw the power of peace coming from the person in front of me and I knew it to be much, much greater than any kind of violence that could be mounted… At that moment I laid down my arms, I laid down the guns I had carried, laid down the aggression I carried in my heart.

and… the world changed…

Suddenly, the entire world became a possibility instead of continual struggle and wrasslin’ or boxing match… I cried… I felt the power of peace fill my being and I knew, for the first time in my life I had done the right thing… I, for the first time, was in control of my life and the world around me… I have not changed one iota in all those years…. Peace wins… every time…

So…

Then we moved on to the battle to take place on the non-violent field… the field of the mind…

My Quaker lawyer had recently won a Supreme Court case specifically establishing that, in the civilian world, a person did not have to believe in “God” as the concept of the white guy sitting on the throne in robes and long hair, to be a conscientious objector… I agreed to act as the person who would take this position to the military courts. If I lose, I go to jail for 30 years… if I win… everyone who is not a Protestant wins… That is American Indians, Buddhists, Confucianists, Hindus, Muslims, agnostics, atheists and anyone else will be free to claim CO status and be accepted… Seemed like a good idea to me!

So… I took Quaker literature and, while I was on Governor’s Island awaiting my Courts Martial, passed out some pamphlets to enlisted men, who found the arguments for a pacifist position to be intriguing enough to not fall out into formation and to pratice not wearing their uniforms… as I had elected to do… suddenly the enlisted guys waiting for Courts Martial were not wearing insignias… not blousing their boots… not standing formation for chow, but just walking over to the mess hall on their own when it was time to eat… we went from being a formed military unit to just a group of guys… the commanders may have been upset… I couldn’t really tell because by that time the pamphlets I had passed out all up and down General’s Row to the generals who all worked at the UN, began to telephone my commanders phone… which I had written on the pamphlets with just a teeny bit less of the appreciation I had earned from the enlisted men. I could never understand why peace could be such a difficult issue for them to look at… oh well…

So… I was packed off to the Army’s mental ward… Peace it turns out alights in the category ‘nuts’ in the military… I disagreed and filed a request to be reassigned as a counselor, a position for which, not only was I qualified, but was a position, due to my reenlistment and freedom to choose another occupation within the army, under our reenlistment agreement, to which I was contractually owed by my good government. I didn’t want out of the army… I wanted to serve my time as a good, well informed citizen and counsel others on the advantages of the CO position.

Seems like a good thing, doesn’t it? I’m tryin’ to help my country. More COs were killed in the war, per capita than armed soliders… stretcher bearers, medic, ambulance drivers… ever think about running onto a battle field with a giant red cross on your front and back?... So.. who’s brave?

Well, it seems Mr McNamara to whom my request was ultimately filed, took some degree of umbrage with this suggestion. His reply to me was… Give more information… So I wrote more than 50 pages about my perception of the Supreme Being, my philosophy about war and peace and the role that a spiritual person should play in the face of aggression and war…

Orders came down to have me moved away from my Quaker lawyer… immediately… So, I was transferred to the lovely Presidio to await the results of my further discussions with Mr McNamara… During the four months incarceration I helped the mentally damaged people within the ward file suits for damages inflicted upon them by the military… racial demagoguery… religious intolerance and unfair treatment of dependents… my actions included helping those interred find their way to the outside streets where the interns could spend some of their much underutilized time trying to find those who had determined to seek their freedom in the outside world.

Finally, after the third request to be installed as a CO counselor my papers came back rejected. I signed the papers as having been received, returned them to the officer who had handed them to me and laid down on the floor, informing those around me that if they wanted my body, they could have it… don’t forget to feed, water and… above all.. clean it a few times a day… because things might get somewhat messy from time to time moving forward.

I was immediately picked up, limp… and placed in the back of a military police car and taken to the stockade. After a somewhat less than congenial meeting with the commanding officer of the stockade, represented in the person of an underfed captain outside of the airborne regiment to which I belonged, have a little fit of pounding his desk and racking all his desk objects on the floor, I knew we were ready for some serious partying… finally… music!

I was carried to a cellblock where some toughs decided I was one of those ‘chickens’… Since I had worked my way up to the most elite group in the military, and could prove it, and they had not finished basic… we promptly rearranged our relationship… Following some quiet discussions about whether the military was in charge of their lives or whether they were in charge of their own lives… I suddenly had a whole cellblock on a hunger strike… within a half hour both cellblocks were on hunger strikes and refusing to obey any orders…

I was hauled off to solitary confinement.

At first, it appeared as if I might have to entertain myself with my own thoughts for awhile, when I noticed through the one-inch gap along the top of the darkened cell, which I could see out of if I turned my head sideways, down the hallway and out a small window… trees were blowing in the wind…. Entertainment! Someone to talk to about nature!... no matter what happened… I would win!

So….

For 22 more days I refused food. I was visited by my chaplain from my outfit in Germany, who had baptized me… He was torn. There was a pacifist section of his church and he had to choose the church or the military. He sided with his church and his God and was on a plane for Vietnam the next day, having to leave his family in German….retribution from the military can be inordinately cruel.

The commanding general of the First Army visited me, agreed with my position and admitted he would have the same position except he had a family and a long career getting ready to end. We cried together about war and hatred. We shook hands in friendship.

Suddenly on the 22rd day of my hunger strike, I was taken before a General Courts Martial board where I faced some 30 years. The Quakers had transferred my defense to their west coast offices in San Francisco… bad move by the military… and Mr Ben Seaver prepared me for a long ordeal before the board… He stood up, walked to the board, leaned on their table and spoke so quietly I could not hear, for about two minutes. He then turned around, walked back, sat down and the commanding general said… “Charges dismissed..” It was over in the blink of an eye… I still don’t know to this day what he said…

The next day the military police arrived with my Honorable Discharge in hand, new clothes and orders to take me around the base to check out of the military. I had been offered a less than honorable discharge earlier in the siege, but refused it. I served my time, I was an honorable person only seeking to serve my country and help those who requested a peaceful association with the military… unacceptable.

So… I’m out on the streets in front of the Presido. I caught a bus downtown, read in the paper there was an opening for a desk clerk, walked into the Harcourt, was given the job and a place to live and started on the midnight shift.

A few days later I met a kewpie doll we all know and I started an adventure that I still find somewhat less than wonderful to this very day….

If you’re still not tearin’ your hair out, about this commie bastard in your idst, I’ll write some more about my adventures with Ms Suennen…

I just thought you might find these preceding words germane to the formation of your perceptions of who this person is on the other end of the line….

Just a gratefully raised, country boy with peace on his mind…

Rather grandiose and a slight touch of narcissism.

Verrrrrry interesting, TheForeigner! Thank you for posting all that.

Interesting comment about going to Pineville. (Peek through the pines???????)

Just catching up on this thread.

I wonder if Crabtree's time at the Presidio was during the riots. Somewhere, we've talked about a potential link to the Zodiac.

About this quote from Crabtree:

Quote :

Posted by JC: 20 Feb 2010 19:50

I was taken off the suspect list almost immediately.. next day after my arrest... Thank goodness I'm a friendly guy... I had been on a walk in Boulder Creek... July 4th, ya know... and I passed a family I didn't know having a barbeque in their back yard... we talked, exchanged pleasantries and they remembered when the cops talked to them... six eyewitnesses... even saw me drivin' my 1929 Model A flat deck truck... common car, right?

Posted by JC: 27 Feb 2010 15:26

several perfect strangers saw me at the time of the murder, one of them a judge, and definitely placed me 300 miles away, driving a 1929 Model "A" flat deck truck....

Foreigner - To me it reads sarcastically - he is saying 'yeah, they said I was driving the truck and actually it's a common truck so it could be anyone's truck'. He is being sarcastic about the witnesses and stating what they said, not what he was doing.

He goes as far as to say he was out walking, not driving. In other words, the witnesses contrived they saw him in a truck.

In the the above quoted text, what was he arrested for?

Luke68 wrote:

Just catching up on this thread.

I wonder if Crabtree's time at the Presidio was during the riots. Somewhere, we've talked about a potential link to the Zodiac.

About this quote from Crabtree:

Quote :

Posted by JC: 20 Feb 2010 19:50

I was taken off the suspect list almost immediately.. next day after my arrest... Thank goodness I'm a friendly guy... I had been on a walk in Boulder Creek... July 4th, ya know... and I passed a family I didn't know having a barbeque in their back yard... we talked, exchanged pleasantries and they remembered when the cops talked to them... six eyewitnesses... even saw me drivin' my 1929 Model A flat deck truck... common car, right?

Posted by JC: 27 Feb 2010 15:26

several perfect strangers saw me at the time of the murder, one of them a judge, and definitely placed me 300 miles away, driving a 1929 Model "A" flat deck truck....

Foreigner - To me it reads sarcastically - he is saying 'yeah, they said I was driving the truck and actually it's a common truck so it could be anyone's truck'. He is being sarcastic about the witnesses and stating what they said, not what he was doing.

He goes as far as to say he was out walking, not driving. In other words, the witnesses contrived they saw him in a truck.

Yes. This is how I am reading it as well.

It comes across as he is trying to use it as his alibi, but I too think he is being sarcastic. "Perfect strangers" are placing me in my truck.


Qz1: He was arrested on a warrant for passing bad checks.


***

Here, it appears Jim Phillips/Crabtree WAS brought to VPD's attention from psychic DeLouise.....at least Jim sounds like a new suspect...in late January, 1970.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/DFR56.html

Thanks Tahoe

Quote from Tahoe : Here, it appears Jim Phillips/Crabtree WAS brought to VPD's attention from psychic DeLouise.....at least Jim sounds like a new suspect...in late January, 1970.

The letter I saw about picking up Crabtree for the Z murders , was Oct 69 not 1970, so I personally don't think it was because of a psychic that they went after him. Most LE think psychics are a joke.

If I didn't know better I would have to say Jim is one of the better suspects. I have his handwriting ( printing) samples, they were close, but not perfect to the Z printing. ( one even has a Z logo on it ! )
As far as him not looking like the Z, he is the only one so far who did look the most like the SFPD composite. ( hair with a reddish tint ,Crew Cut and horn rimed glasses)
If I were a profiler, I would have to say his background as a young child being abandoned by his mother and father would be devastating to say the least. He had to feel unloved , something that I feel is in the Zodiac's persona.

He told some of you that he had no feelings for Darlene , yet he writes that he did think about her.
Some have asked if it was him who killed Darlene, what would be his motive ? "If" he did something that she saw him do, and it could put him away for a long time, would be motive enough. What if he was the person she saw kill someone ?
He mentions giving up guns for peace, yet he owned a 22 a short time later.
One of you also said that Mike M didn't mention the killer looking like Crabtree, but he did say the the killers car was like Darlene's ex's car. To be clear, I am not saying that Jim is the Zodiac I have my own suspect and it isn't him nor have I been followed by anyone looking like him. I did however have one uncomfortable run with him, in the mid 90's. I can only say I am glad I was not alone at that time, he is not a nice person when he gets upset.

sandy betts wrote:

Quote from Tahoe : Here, it appears Jim Phillips/Crabtree WAS brought to VPD's attention from psychic DeLouise.....at least Jim sounds like a new suspect...in late January, 1970.

The letter I saw about picking up Crabtree for the Z murders , was Oct 69 not 1970, so I personally don't think it was because of a psychic that they went after him. Most LE think psychics are a joke.

I cannot speak for any other jurisdiction of course. This is just Vallejo. The link I provided shows clearly Vallejo didn't take an interest until January 22 of 1970.


***

There is mention here of the cab driver being shot and suggests picking up "James Phillips" in connection with Zodiac, but that too wasn't until January and it's not LE.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/DFR62.html

All good points Sandy.

One thing though, my understanding is that JC is more on the skinny side, no?

Not anymore. Is there a mugshot from when he was arrested for the bad checks.

Luke68 wrote:

All good points Sandy.

One thing though, my understanding is that JC is more on the skinny side, no?

I couldn't say what he looked like back then , but when I saw him in the mid 90's he wasn't fat but he was chubby, he was dressed like a hippie with his hair curly and to his shoulders, reddish blond,blue eyes and had a poncho that hid most of his body.

Qz1 wrote:

Not anymore. Is there a mugshot from when he was arrested for the bad checks.

I do believe I read that there was a mug shot taken, but I don't know of anyone who has seen it.

tahoe27 wrote:

sandy betts wrote:

Quote from Tahoe : Here, it appears Jim Phillips/Crabtree WAS brought to VPD's attention from psychic DeLouise.....at least Jim sounds like a new suspect...in late January, 1970.

The letter I saw about picking up Crabtree for the Z murders , was Oct 69 not 1970, so I personally don't think it was because of a psychic that they went after him. Most LE think psychics are a joke.

I cannot speak for any other jurisdiction of course. This is just Vallejo. The link I provided shows clearly Vallejo didn't take an interest until January 22 of 1970.


***

There is mention here of the cab driver being shot and suggests picking up "James Phillips" in connection with Zodiac, but that too wasn't until January and it's not LE.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/DFR62.html

True, it was entered in Jan 1970, as a part of Darlene's case, but the words indicate that the telegram could have been sent soon after Paul Stine was shot. Like right after the letter was sent by Zodiac ? It would be very odd for a Det who was involved in the Zodiac case to not know for 3 months, that Zodiac had struck again. I would like to see the attached telegram and see what date that was sent ?

tahoe27 wrote:

Heck, Darlene's husband at the time would have had more motive than Jim.

***

I don't think Mike described Jim Phillips/Crabtree. Therefore, he would have had to hire someone. Possible? Sure. Plausable? Not so much.

While Jim still showed his disdain for Darlene in 2010, hiring someone to kill her is extreme and he would need good reason. He didn't seem upset about the divorce. So, I'm with AK in regards to motive.

I think most aren't too fond of their ex's. That's why they are ex's.

- What people aren't understanding here is quite the opposite, IN MY OPINION j__ cared for dee in the beginning very much, and even after her death, and she begain cheating on jim. IN MY OPINION that's what made him hate her, she was the best thing he ever had. revenge and jealousy is the # 1 reason for murder.

And furthermore when j__ had my site taken off and deleated, IF I RECALL CORRECTLY he told the forum people we were accusing him of murdering his ex wife whom he cared for dearly. IN MY OPINION jim is a very cunning crafty person capable a lot of things. don't under estimate him. He is at the top of my list. and you guys don't even know the other things he was saying to me in e-mails, that I cant go into right at this moment. I have been in contact with Americas most wanted on this matter, maybe something will come of it, maybe not

Interesting

Zig, I can understand your reasoning about Jim's feelings towards Darlene. If Darlene's murder were not tied to the Zodiac killings I would be inclined to agree with you. What I don't see, where Jim is concerned, is why he would kill the others and write all the letters as part of a grand scheme to do away with Darlene. The kind of love/hate you are talking about is very personal and single minded.

Were Jim a suspect in the eyes of LE he would need to be placed at the appropriate places and times to have committed the other murders and mailed the letters. Each of the jurisdictions involved would have and perhaps did investigate him thoroughly. We most certainly do not have all the police reports so it's hard to know what the other jurisdictions did. It's the other murders that stop me from entertaining in my mind the idea of him as a suspect.