More on Don Bujok

KevinB, Very well written and hit a lot of points we were wondering about. Thanks for all the details and giving us an update.

Zincerely, Zam

So the case is essentially solved?!!!! And Kevin is the man!! Wow! Unbelievable work
I'm shocked it's not my POI. In fact, it seems statistical impossible to me. But if it's not him, it's not him. If the case is solved (I pray it is), I can't think of anyone I'd rather have solved it and get the glory than Kevin. Bravo! And all I've got to say is HALLELUJAH!!! HALLELUJAH! HALLELUJAH!! The truth has finally set us FREE!!!!! And freedom from this case has been a long time coming for most of us, esp. the victims' families. I sure hope it's solved. I'm already starting to feel a huge weight lifted off my shoulders. Please Z, be Bujok!

rand wrote:

So the case is essentially solved?!!!! And Kevin is the man!! Wow! Unbelievable work
I'm shocked it's not my POI. In fact, it seems statistical impossible to me. But if it's not him, it's not him. If the case is solved (I pray it is), I can't think of anyone I'd rather have solved it and get the glory than Kevin. Bravo! And all I've got to say is HALLELUJAH!!! HALLELUJAH! HALLELUJAH!! The truth has finally set us FREE!!!!! And freedom from this case has been a long time coming for most of us, esp. the victims' families. I sure hope it's solved. I'm already starting to feel a huge weight lifted off my shoulders. Please Z, be Bujok!

I

Have the fingerprints been matched? I'm confused. You wrote "The handprint analysis is back. And it's a match!" Did you mean, the handwriting analysis is a match? If you meant handprints, then the case seems closed to me. But one observation: am I to understand that LE didn't check fingerprints from released prisoners from Deer Lodge prison to see if they matched those on Stine's cab? If that's true, it's criminal. Z said he was an escaped prisoner from Deer Lodge, of all places. That's what we know Z said to people he didn't expect to live after he met them. The least one would expect is that LE checked fingerprints from prisoners who left the prison over the past five years (1964-68). If that didn't happened, it's an outrage.

Kevin, I hope you are right, and if you are, good job for digging and not giving up. Obviously, just like everyone else, I would like to see a photo of him around 1969, a writing sample, and a confirmed print match from police. They have dozens of suspected prints of Zodiac from phones, letters and the taxi. I hope we hear that it matches Bujok with 100% certainty. Until then, I have to be on the fence. If you are right and the case is solved, I am going to burn all of my Zodiac stuff, and take a long rest before even thinking about any other unsolved cases. For your sake Kevin, in the eyes of all the Zodiac members on this forum and others, as well as the Victims Family members, I hope that facts will back up your statement.

rand wrote:

Have the fingerprints been matched? I'm confused. You wrote "The handprint analysis is a match." Did you mean, the handwriting analysis is a match? If you meant handprints, then the case seems closed to me. But one observation: am I to understand that LE didn't check fingerprints from released prisoners from Deer Lodge prison to see if they matched those on Stine's cab? If that's true, it's criminal. Z said he was an escaped prisoner from Deer Lodge, of all places. That's what we know Z said to people he didn't expect to live after he met them. The least one would expect is that LE checked fingerprints from prisoners who left the prison over the past five years (1964-68). If that didn't happened, it's an outrage.

Rand, the police investigation from the beginning was sloppy. The various LE agencies didnt even share info. One of the people at the scene of the LHR crime scene had two of his cursive signatures compared to Zodiac's printed writing, and they ruled him out without ever taking his prints. Mistakes were made Rand, no doubt!

Kevin B wrote:

rand wrote:

Have the fingerprints been matched? I'm confused. You wrote "The handprint analysis is back. And it's a match!" Did you mean, the handwriting analysis is a match? If you meant handprints, then the case seems closed to me. But one observation: am I to understand that LE didn't check fingerprints from released prisoners from Deer Lodge prison to see if they matched those on Stine's cab? If that's true, it's criminal. Z said he was an escaped prisoner from Deer Lodge, of all places. That's what we know Z said to people he didn't expect to live after he met them. The least one would expect is that LE checked fingerprints from prisoners who left the prison over the past five years (1964-68). If that didn't happened, it's an outrage.

Handwriting match, the prints are now being looked at in Napa. ....I’m like a nutty professor! I'm so sorry Again! Morf I need your address as I want to send the writing to you and Zam. As you know his writing is small so make sure you have a magnifying glass.

Please tell me the name of the handwriting expert that looked at these writing samples, you can do it in a PM to me if you want. As a matter of fact, I will send you my mailing address in a PM, and you can email me back with her name.

Morf, I do know it's NOT Barto....so that is the good news.

Zamantha wrote:

Morf, I do know it's NOT Barto....so that is the good news.

Ok,

morf13 wrote:

Zamantha wrote:

Morf, I do know it's NOT Barto....so that is the good news.

Ok,

Yeah Morf,... I could read your mind way over here in Cali. That was one of the first questions I asked Kev...and was so happy to hear that it's not Barto. >smile<

In

p

Kevin B wrote:

In Ed Edwards’s book he writes of losing a whole lot of weight when he was in Deer Lodge; as the food was shit! All the guards ate the good stuff and the rest was sold and the prisoners ate slop! That's why in Bujok's 1st mug he was 200 and then in 1961 he looked to be about 170 or so. If you want I will post the page from ‘Metamorphosis of a Criminal by Ed Edwards.
I know some think Ed Edwards was Zodiac but the fact is his murders included picking up the evidence (spent shells) and sex. I don't believe Zodiac committed rape as Edwards did.

But, remember these people are cut from the same cloth which often includes neglect, early abuse, lack of a father figure, a lack of love and of course genetics. I liked Edwards for a while too. I even looked at Dennis Kaufman's step-dad until I found some things that didn't jive. You have to admit he looks like the composite... I thought Houghton looked good and was interested in Morf's guy.
One of the most common signs and indicators of psychosis is solitude.... Bujok was close to no one I spoke with! He was a real loner! Bujok loved joke shops and Army and Navy stores. He collected buttons and trinkets and military medals. His nephew told me about a science fiction story he wrote where "one bat would come out of this castle and a bell would toll and then two and the bell would toll again twice...His nephews are real nice guys... I really like them. Their father is dying right now so I don't like bothering them too much as tending to him is much more important right now than having some guy ask about what might be your serial killer uncle every couple of days....

There is much more work that needs to be done and I could use the help if you are willing. Its true Tom’s site was always a big help, but I walked on egg-shells and towed the line and never challenged him as I didn’t want the wrath to come down on me like I’d seen it come down on others. I even sent him small donations when I could. I kept writing him when I found this information but he never returned my e-mails and then all of the sudden I got a bunch and they basically told me to shove what I had. He cut me off his site… Despite what anyone thinks I did have Bujok’s first mug-shot but someone posted it before me. That I received from Julia Brewer who I became friends with from the Montana Prison Museum. Without her the new mugs would have never been as she searched boxes and boxes for them for me. She is the true hero if this gets solved. Tracers is brilliant but I know she is not loyal to me. Again, I respect Tom for his web-site building skills. I thank Tracers for being such a great researcher!
I asked so many questions around Roundup, Montana that some got sick of me…. I’m used to that as a sales-manager.

For the record I teach Guitar, I am a District Sales-manager and have worked on several high profile murder cases doing medical research and information. But remember, it was a school-teacher who solved the 1st code not an FBI agent, not a CIA agent, not Navy intelligence, not the police, not the Sheriff's department but a school-teacher.

Just what do you mean when you say you know I am not loyal to you?

tracers wrote:

Just what do you mean when you say you know I am not loyal to you?

Yes, I am also curious what you mean by this? I have never seen Tracers post anything negative
about you on any board?

caresut wrote:

tracers wrote:

Just what do you mean when you say you know I am not loyal to you?

Yes, I am also curious what you mean by this? I have never seen Tracers post anything negative
about you on any board?

I wrote Tracers a PM to explain

Yes, Kevin sent me a pm to explain in private an accusation he made against me in public. LOL

I actually defended him when In Bones Fides was being so rude. Guess he forgot about this post I made which has since been deleted?

Quote :

tracers
Chief


Posts: 405
Join date: 2010-03-06


PostSubject: Re: I believe the case is solved! [According to Kevin B.] Today at 3:50 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post
In Bonus Fides wrote:

Quote :

As far as Zynchronicity...look no further than Allen?? Many VERY experienced LE and DOJ veterans were, seemingly, wrongly convinced about a guy that lived only a few miles from the crime scene(s) and fit so many perameters; wore a Zodiac watch, was a felon, skin-dived at LB the day of the crime, loved the Most Dangerous Game,tortured animals, communicated with the media, owned firearms,etc.

Maybe Kevin could post some actual evidence versus supposition or self portraits in the POI section. Seriously, who does that unless it's a cry for gratitude and attention?

In fact, I think Kevin brings up a strong yet, unintended, point in mentioning Don Harden( in lieu of actual evidence).

He makes as strong a Zynchronistic suspect as anyone. Glasses, widow's peak, lived in California, interjected themselves in the case, and is one of only 2 ( or 1?!) who knows the ciphertext and solution to the 408.

IIRC, Allen was not a felon until after the zodiac crimes and there is NO proof he was at Lake Berryessa the day Bryan and Cecilia were attacked. Back then no one equated supposed torture of animals with being a serial killer. BTW, just how did ALA torture animals? AS for communicating with the media, seems to me the media courted/hounded ALA, not the other way around.

To accuse another board member of crying out for gratitude or attention is totally uncalled for, IMO. If he were making posts in support of Ted K would you be making the same comments or holding him to the same standards? I'd love to see some actual evidence that ties Ted K to the Zodiac crimes, but you don't see me belittling you or AK or other people who think Ted k is the Zodiac.

I find your rudeness in this situation totally uncalled for. If you don't think he has proven a point, you could make that observation in a much more respectful manner. Instead, you mock him and then have the gall to make a supposedly "amusing" observation that since KevinB mentioned Don Harden, that Harden himself makes a good Zynchronistic Zodiac suspect. Shame on you. Shame. I really thought you were better than this.
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I really don't think the issue of "loyalty" is even relevant to the discussion of whether or not Bujok is Zodiac. I have no idea why it was even mentioned by KevinB, but once it was mentioned, I was not going to sit by while someone made such a claim about me and then provided nothing to "support" their claim.

This is all quite sad to watch. Let's all stop the bickering and get the thread back onto what it is supposed to be about - could Don Bujok be the Zodiac?

I guess tensions are running quite high. A lot of emotion and decades of work has gone into this case by many people who are present here and the point of these forums is for us to share whatever we can on this case so that it might one day be solved, the victims can have justice and their families can have a tiny amount of closure. Should we get to that point, I'm sure we all want to share credit for the vast amount of private, unpaid work that has gone into trying to solve this forlorn case.

Kevin - I applaud your footwork to get more info on Bujok. Ever since his name surfaced, I have thought he ticked many Zodiac boxes but needed to be solidly linked to the Bay area. However, we have all spent many years jointly looking into very promising suspects and shared all the information only to find what looked like a waterproof case crumble at the final hurdle. At no point have any of us suddenly tried to copyright our posts and keep information to ourselves whilst stating we are going to write a book on it to make money. Yes, some posters are authors who share their information on these forums in addition to putting it into print but only the likes of Kaufman, Perez, etc have trawled the forums for info and then run off to make money from the case saying it is solved. I'm sure many people are just disappointed to see a promising contributor of these forums - and a member of the "team" resort to those tactics. I'm sure this is not how you ever wanted to be perceived.

It's not my thread but why don't we all put the personal issues aside and use the thread solely for the purpose it was intended for - to share information on our 3000th possible Z suspect, in the hope that this guy might at long last be the right one.

Quagmire wrote:

This is all quite sad to watch. Let's all stop the bickering and get the thread back onto what it is supposed to be about - could Don Bujok be the Zodiac?

I guess tensions are running quite high. A lot of emotion and decades of work has gone into this case by many people who are present here and the point of these forums is for us to share whatever we can on this case so that it might one day be solved, the victims can have justice and their families can have a tiny amount of closure. Should we get to that point, I'm sure we all want to share credit for the vast amount of private, unpaid work that has gone into trying to solve this forlorn case.

Kevin - I applaud your footwork to get more info on Bujok. Ever since his name surfaced, I have thought he ticked many Zodiac boxes but needed to be solidly linked to the Bay area. However, we have all spent many years jointly looking into very promising suspects and shared all the information only to find what looked like a waterproof case crumble at the final hurdle. At no point have any of us suddenly tried to copyright our posts and keep information to ourselves whilst stating we are going to write a book on it to make money. Yes, some posters are authors who share their information on these forums in addition to putting it into print but only the likes of Kaufman, Perez, etc have trawled the forums for info and then run off to make money from the case saying it is solved. I'm sure many people are just disappointed to see a promising contributor of these forums - and a member of the "team" resort to those tactics. I'm sure this is not how you ever wanted to be perceived.

It's not my thread but why don't we all put the personal issues aside and use the thread solely for the purpose it was intended for - to share information on our 3000th possible Z suspect, in the hope that this guy might at long last be the right one.

Thank you! Amen. I would also like to add that a number of people have told me that they would find KevinB more credible if he stopped editing his posts all the time. At the risk of sounding "disloyal," I have to say I agree with them. Why the frequent editing of posts? Either you stand by what you post or you just don't post it. I find it extremely annoying to try to look back on what KevinB has said, only to find that due to his editing, I can never be quite sure what he said.

I am sorry to sound so harsh, but KevinB, don't you realize how bad it looks when you keep editing your posts? I am sure you don't intend to appear to look like you are trying to backtrack or hide what you previously posted, but that is what it looks like to a lot of people, and that may be part of the reason why some people have been reluctant to believe you.

Also, what is the big deal about posting a writing sample? If it is small, people can magnify it after you post it.

tracers wrote:

I am sorry to sound so harsh, but KevinB, don't you realize how bad it looks when you keep editing your posts? I am sure you don't intend to appear to look like you are trying to backtrack or hide what you previously posted, but that is what it looks like to a lot of people, and that may be part of the reason why some people have been reluctant to believe you.

Also, what is the big deal about posting a writing sample? If it is small, people can magnify it after you post it.

I agree, I dont see whether or not Tracers has any loyalty to Kevin, has anything to do with whether or not Bujok was Zodiac. He either was or he was not, and it will be proven that he was, or it will not. It shouldnt effect the case no matter what Tracers thinks.

Let's get back on topic. Kevin, you have told me a couple times you would send me the writing samples. I did not get any email. Now you asked me for my mailing address. Now you have that too. I will be looking for it. I hope it shows up. If it doesnt, then I will just have to sit back and wait to hear an official announcement from police that the case is solved.

morf13 wrote:

I hope it shows up. If it doesnt, then I will just have to sit back and wait to hear an official announcement from police that the case is solved.

Or for the book, whichever comes first...

[quote="morf13"][quote="tracers"]I am sorry to sound so harsh, but KevinB, don't you realize how bad it looks when you keep editing your posts? I am sure you don't intend to appear to look like you are trying to backtrack or hide what you previously posted, but that is what it looks like to a lot of people, and that may be part of the reason why some people have been reluctant to believe you.

See ya!

By nature I am a perfectionist probably obsessive compulsive too. So, when I wrote that last night I was very tired and kept finding errors and things I wanted to add. Listen, I’ll do you a favor and stop posting all together. I have asked you over and over if you would work with me and finish some things. You have not replied. You seem preoccupied with my handwriting samples rather than my friendship or working with me. Send me handwriting samples is what I get… How about, how are you, what’s up? How about look what I found on Bujok?
What inside anyone finds me so devious? Like I am editing to cover something up? I could care less what someone thinks in that regard. I have opened my life with pictures, defended you, wrote stories about myself, and showed you my world. I have written why I think Bujok is Z. Although circumstantial this suspect has too much to deny. Still he may not be if not I’ll take the hit and let Tom put pictures on his web everyone can throw comments at. I have called you personally when I found things I thought you would be interested in. I have given you confidential information. I PM Tracers and asked her some real questions very open and honest. I’m not hiding, I’m here, go to Facebook and see who I am… See who my friends are. You will find good Christian folk, old musicians, old girl-friends, old guitar greats; I toured with and know. I was the lead guitarist at Church of the Cross in Bradenton for five years. Ask Pastor Stan about me. I was the worship leader at More Than Conquers for two years. Ask Pastor Phife about me. I have a beautiful wife, a son and daughter in the U.S. Air Force. Do a background check on me. You will find nothing!
What about me bugs you so? What have Ii done in the past to make someone think me a liar or even insinuate that? Insinuate that I am a liar! All I want is to see this solved and to tell you the truth I’m tired of this case! There are plenty more to be solved that may have a greater impact than this. This is the first POI I have delved into and I think I am right! In fact, I know I am! I knew what to look for and found it.
Tom Voigt has had 4 POI'S and has never been right yet! Would you call him out? Again, this is my first. You will not find one person that will tell you a negative thing about me down here. I treat people with compassion and honesty and kindness. Again, I tried to reach out and have been critiqued so I will stop posting. Thank you for the use of your site and your help!

Kevin B. Oct. 2011

Kevin B,

I have no skin in this, just an observer. Bujok seems is a likely suspect imo, I hope it pans out, and you seem like a nice guy.

However, at least 10 people, good, long time Z researchers, have asked you to see the handwriting, and the newer mug shot (which doesn't mean all that much to me personally). I'm sure I know the reason these have not been posted, and it has nothing to do with scanners or faxes. Are you being truthful, is that why in a month or so you have not figured out how to post these items, while posting pictures of yourself, books you've read, etc.?

You say you've solved the case and are going to write a book. Fine by me, however to dismiss the finding of Bujok's mention in Edward's book as something you've know about since 1979 or whatever, but somehow failed to mention or follow up on until it was brought up on a Z forum to which you, yourself, thanked those who found it for the terrific find, must a be a real slap in the face to those folks. It's no wonder they, and the rest of us are frustrated.

Again, taking the Bujok info and turning it into hard evidence, rather than just batting circumstantial evidence around on the forum ad nauseum, is very commendable. I, and others, have done the same thing with other suspects, and shared out findings, which makes this situation all the more frustrating.

Hold the horses...Kevin, calm down and think. You may still need more help researching the case even in there is no fingerprint match ( or DNA)! Sloppiness from over 40 years ago will only magnify the problem. Even if we can line up all facts and circumstances and witnesses and etc.. Does not mean the case is solved. The case is solved when LE declares the case solved. That may never happen, my friend. One day LE may accnowledge a match based on DNA found in only two of all Zodiac cases. Do we really know Zodiac is responsible for LHR? Really? Do we really know he did LB? Really? Do we really know Z did CJB? Really? What if someone else did CJB, Edward and Domingos and LB, but not LHR,BRS and Stine?

There are more possible combinations here. One of the reasons the Zodiac case was never "solved" may be - besides sloppy investigation and not matching fingerprints- that things just did not happen the way they look! Zodiac is not the uebermensch, not at all. He was indeed very sloppy and plain lucky. If the 340 wasn't solved, that does not mean in any way it is unbreakable. It means that the slob did not stick to the rules of classical cryptography, made mistakes or planted a personal information in the cipher which one can only locate if you know that particular personal information. Or he created a 340 of bunch of balony. However, he would have had to be even smarter to achieve that!

Regarding loyalty, loyalty is a way of showing respect to a certain person (country, belief, group etc.). One is loyal to another person unless such loyalty is being betrayed or taken advantage of. Then usually loyalty will be withdrawn from the person sharing it. Loyalty in itself is a very good concept. It shows the person's integrity in dealing with each other. That's a good thing and we teach our children to be that way. If a person is loyal, thsi person has a fundamental reason and a belief to do so. Loyalty, same as respect, is earned and can be withdrawn at any time.

If you claim a person is not loyal to you but loyal to another person or cause, you have to ask yourself why that is. One reason individuals cling to loyalty to one person may be that they simply have not developed the trust yet in another person. In that case one need to give the other person time while in the meantime proving to be trustworthy.
Another reason why people hold up loyalty- or interest- is that fact that they feel committed as for example moderators for another site would feel. There is a fine line between being loyal- or committed- and being integer enought not to jeopardize any trust you earn anywhere.
Tracers is an honest person. You will not see he post or talk (pm) with anyone in a way she would not talk if the person that the post or pm was about wasn't present. Her comments are respectful and cautious.

See, Kevin, you say you could care less when you edit your post ( to the extend that you actually delete them or take out information), copyright them and what others think about it. You really should be interested what everone thinks here. If you plan to eventually publish a book, we are all your potential buyers. That's why you should always care. That's what they teach in churches too, I was told..

So, let's get back on topic and conduct a very thorough scrutiny of Donald Lee Bujok possibly being the Zodiac. For now nothing has been proven, not a thing. It would not make it to court, heck, it would not even make it into my driveway..

More work, less talk.

-Nin