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 Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"

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onewhoknows
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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:40 am

Wasn't Owens a little OLD to be Zodiac?
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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:58 am

onewhoknows wrote:
Wasn't Owens a little OLD to be Zodiac?

The SFPD Zodiac sketch described Zodiac as being 35-45 years old. At the time of that sketch, Owen was 39

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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:06 pm

He just sounds like a good man. I don't think he was the Zodiac killer. To each his own. I mean, it's good you looked into him Morf, but I'm not feelin' it.

...not to mention he was 6'3".

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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:26 pm

tahoe27 wrote:
He just sounds like a good man. I don't think he was the Zodiac killer. To each his own. I mean, it's good you looked into him Morf, but I'm not feelin' it.

...not to mention he was 6'3".

Ted Bundy looked like a nice man....all american looks, good family & schooling,etc...I try not to judge a book by its cover. The 6ft3 thing doesnt matter too much to me,since Hartnell stated in one report that he felt Zodiac "wasnt that much shorter" than him.

Owen might not have ANYTHING to do with the Zodiac case,but he simply was not properly ruled out despite the facts I mentioned above and previously in this thread. I just would like to see that happen,and there IS still a chance that will happen.

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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:46 pm

morf13 wrote:
onewhoknows wrote:
Wasn't Owens a little OLD to be Zodiac?

The SFPD Zodiac sketch described Zodiac as being 35-45 years old. At the time of that sketch, Owen was 39

I don't have a problem with his age range but his height bothers me. He fits Harnell's description but what about the 5' 8'' range? Eye witness reports are really not that reliable but Hartnell, as a tall man, would have better judgement about the attacker's height. I would think that LE on the Stine call would have been trained to accurately recognize such details but they guy they saw was reported to be much shorter person they said was Z.

Then Manalli was 6'3" too wasn't he (I'm too old and senile to keep all this in my head and half the time I can't find my notes Sleep ).
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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:48 pm

Manalli was about 6ft2 I think

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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:30 am

I don't think this guy was Zodiac, but that opinion's not based on his obit. Whoever wrote that, or contributed, was someone who thought he was a wonderful guy. The truth could be very different. So I'd like to know whether or not Owens actually "adopted" kids. As in taking non-bio children into his home, feeding and clothing them, being a father to them. Or legal adoption of children not genetically related. Did James Owen actually do this? Or was it more like ~ Lots of kids liked to hang out at the Owens place and Mr. Owen rarely objected strongly?

That's why it would be helpful to talk to one of the "adopted" kids. If there are any. They may have a very different view of James Owen. BUT - if there are, indeed, adopted kids who say he really was the guy described in the article, then that would be good grounds to move him down on the POI list, imo.
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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:01 pm

I agree that an obit would be written to shine him in a good light, but if there is any truth to this statement, I stand by my comment.

The stories Jim loved to share were of the goodness of others and the deeds that truly great men accomplished. He was never impressed by fame or wealth, but by the simple acts of kindness and humanity that typically go unnoticed.

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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:44 am

Found this on another site:

"Mr. James Owen next comes into the picture. He, too, contacted he police. At 11:20 p.m. that night he had driven past the entrance to the pumping station, coming from Vallejo, going toward Benicia. He noticed 2 cars at the turnout. One was the Rambler station wagon. It was parked where the earlier witnesses, Homer and Peggier Your, had located it, facing easterly, not where Connley said it was parked. Parked along its passenger side, about 5 feet from it, was another car. He could not identify it by model or year, but it was a dark car, not too big, not compact, little chrome finishings. Curiously, he did not notice anybody in either car or anybody about. One quarter of a mile down the road he heard what he thought was a gunshot. Taken together, the chain of events show that James Owen passed by extremely close to the shooting."

Thats an understatement, it was very close,and very soon after,Stella Borges came upon the bodies.the fact Owen claims there was nobody around or in the cars, goes against what the evidence says,which is that they were ordered out of the car and David was shot as he exited.Some people will say that maybe all of the occupants were crouched down in their seats,but NOT ONE WITNESS that night saw the2 victims crouched down in their seats,they were always vissible. In addition, The other site doesnt point out the various inconsistencies in his statements. Jimmy remains in my top 3 Favorite POI's, and his prints are in safe keeping awaiting potential print analysis.

After he passed away,I requested any FBI file for him, and was advised that any records that would have potentially involved him were destroyed in 1986(not sure what that means),but the FBI stated that they "can not confirm or deny" that there were any files about Owen in their posession.

Nothing can change the fact that Owen was the only person confirmed to be at the scene of the murders AFTER the hunters left,and BEFORE Borges found the bodies, a very tight window indeed, add that to the fact he was ex air force,had just moved to the area,and the inconsistencies in his statements, he is a logical person of interest,and as such, he should be ruled out properly

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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:45 am

If Owen drove approximately 30 miles per hour, driving 1/4 mile until he heard the shot, this would be only about 30 seconds for Z and David and Betty to get back to their cars. This somehow would explain the position of Betty, e.g. fleeing towards the car. David being faster but still too slow. BUT as the shells have been close to their car, this is not an option as long as the shells haven't been positioned by purpose next to David (rather not the case). Also Owen didn't see them walking or running towards their cars either.

30 seconds is not much time, so I think it is strange that Owen didn't see anybody there. Have they been sitting in Z's car which was harder to see as it stood behind Betty's? If not, could it be that Owen had been involved in the shooting somehow, or at least in some discussions that might have happened at the scene?

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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:53 am

Regarding Owen's statements about hearing the shot, he didn't report it the next morning while he was standing at the crime scene. Instead, he doesn't mention it until 3 days later in his 2nd police statement. I just continue to have a hard time believing that a guy standing at the scene of a double shooting 9 hours later, would fail to mention hearing a shot. Also, I question him hearing a shot at all. A .22 caliber handgun is pretty quiet(remember Mageau said it sounded like a silencer when he was being shot) it sounds more like a crack. He was driving away from the scene a quarter mile away, and I think it's unlikely he heard a shot. The police investigation was steered by what Owen told them from the beginning. He also told them the cars were 3 or 4 feet apart in one report, but 10 feet apart in the other report. I would love to be wrong about Owen, but I don't think he was ever ruled out properly, and as the only person known to be at the scene between the time the victims were last seen alive, and when they were found dead, he should have been a logical suspect all along. To their credit, Solano DID suspect him somewhat since they checked 2 of his guns and compared two of his cursive signatures to Zodiacs printed writing. In addition, 'IF' Owen was Zodiac, it could explain the long delay in writing a letter to police, or the long delay in attacking again since he may have felt he was under suspicion. Once he felt he was in the clear, he could have struck again, and picked up a quick pace.

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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:35 pm

morf13 wrote:
A .22 caliber handgun is pretty quiet....
I beg to differ Morf - not that quiet. Have a look at the youtube entries.
Quote :
(remember Mageau said it sounded like a silencer when he was being shot)
...although he was shot with a 9 millimetre.
And since he was shot through the jaw, I expect at least one of his ears wasn't doing him much service.

Please don't mind my small intervention though - I am enjoying the thread, and I agree about the helpful but not entirely believable man in question...
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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:05 pm

Guess we will agree to disagree. As somebody that's owned and shot both 9mm and 22 calibers, I think they are quiet, and they are both very similar size as far as bullet, power, sound

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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:46 pm

morf13 wrote:
Guess we will agree to disagree. As somebody that's owned and shot both 9mm and 22 calibers, I think they are quiet, and they are both very similar size as far as bullet, power, sound

I too own both and would disagree about it being "quiet". While a .22 has more of a pop/firecracker sound, it still isn't pleasant on the ears, but a 9mm? They're loud!

Obviously a personal opinion. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:55 pm

Remember we are talking about hearing the shot from a quarter mile away, not holding it and shooting it

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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:09 pm

morf13 wrote:
Remember we are talking about hearing the shot from a quarter mile away, not holding it and shooting it

Ah yes...

In that sense, I do agree. You can be not too far away and not hear a thing. It's true.


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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:51 pm

Morf, I think it's important to get the calibre of the murder weapons right. I too have owned and shot weapons of different calibre and yes, "loud" is a personal opinion. Take your defenders off next time you go shooting!
The Youtube videos I referred to are of the actual weapon being fired - it's quite revealing.
Here wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressor
"Live tests by independent reviewers of numerous commercially available suppressors find that even low caliber unsuppressed .22 LR handguns produce gunshots over 160 decibels."

BTW I was firing black-powder vintage rifles last week - they were VERY loud. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:14 pm

Shotguns, and large caliber handguns, like .357, .44, .45, now those are loud, at least in my opinion. The .22 is simply acrack or pop compared to the others,but its all a matter of opinion.

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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:24 pm

Here's a good video of the shooting of the Hi Standard/JC Higgins model that Zodiac used(I wonder if he had the same problems shooting that the guy in this video did?


Its not that loud, even though its inside a range. Now, below is one of a similar gun outdoors...


And one more inside a range, still not loud:


Now, compare to a .45(similar to the gun Z likely had with him at Berryessa):


Also added a .357 Magnum(cannon)


And if you feel like shooting somebody's limbs off, here's a .44


Lastly, as a comparison, I am using a shotgun for example. This is a Remington 870 12 gauge,slug gun. I own this gun and its very loud:

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Last edited by morf13 on Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:40 pm; edited 4 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:33 pm

Opinion, yes. Is 160 decibels not too loud then?
118 Decibels - Police siren
140 Decibels - Military jet takeoff (you've probably only heard this from a distance)
160 Decibels - Perforation of eardrum and permanent deafness
170 Decibels – Level of sound in a grenade called “Flashbang”, emits a deafening sound intended to incapacitate any person in the vicinity.
180 Decibels: penetrates the body, shakes air-filled lungs and causes them to hemorrhage with death following.

Anyway - opinion, opinion.

As you know, I don't think Owen's all that reliable. I'm not even sure there was a car there to see. (maybe the attacker arrived - and left - on foot.)
Could Owen have heard a series of shots from a .22 from 450 yards away - driving his car away from the scene?
Yes, in my opinion he could. On a still December night, maybe.
And this is still all just opinion, of course.

The guy in that first video has some problems with non-original spec magazines from what I recall, no?
The video with the guy dressed in red (as I remember) has no issues. Much better. (And it's louder of course. But then I would like that one wouldn't I?)
The attacker that night seems to have managed to fire a full clip in rapid order, no issues. Like Bill. Wink
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqIuapx37So
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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:38 pm

Random thoughts ....

Are there mountains in that area? Reverberation might make a real difference in how sound traveled.

Since Owen was in a car with a low-volume radio playing (according to Owen) and the engine running (by inference), half a mile away (who knows which way the wind was blowing, if at all), I see possibilities for both claims of hearing a shot vs not hearing it. What bothers me more is he didn't report it initially. NO BODY with common sense fails to report the sound of a gunshot in the vicinity of a shooting when being questioned by a cop about said shooting.

FWIW, the guy's photo looks remarkably like the composite to me, more so than anyone else's I've seen. Since Owen worked graveyard how would this work within the time frames of opportunity? He may have had time before clocking in at work on Friday nights; maybe he was off for holidays for some. But ... I can't see him fitting the Cheri Jo Bates homicide.
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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:47 pm

smithy wrote:
... The guy in that first video has some problems with non-original spec magazines from what I recall, no? ....

Now, now, Smithy. Those are clips, not magazines. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:11 pm

patinky wrote:
Random thoughts ....

Are there mountains in that area? Reverberation might make a real difference in how sound traveled.

Since Owen was in a car with a low-volume radio playing (according to Owen) and the engine running (by inference), half a mile away (who knows which way the wind was blowing, if at all), I see possibilities for both claims of hearing a shot vs not hearing it. What bothers me more is he didn't report it initially. NO BODY with common sense fails to report the sound of a gunshot in the vicinity of a shooting when being questioned by a cop about said shooting.

FWIW, the guy's photo looks remarkably like the composite to me, more so than anyone else's I've seen. Since Owen worked graveyard how would this work within the time frames of opportunity? He may have had time before clocking in at work on Friday nights; maybe he was off for holidays for some. But ... I can't see him fitting the Cheri Jo Bates homicide.

Good points Patinky! I am one of the most honest and impartial people with a POI, or at least I hope so, and I also like to point put things that seem to NOT fit my poi, such as most of the z letters being mailed in SF. Owen lived in Vallejo and worked in Benicia, so that seems to not fit. I also can't fit Owen into Riverside or the Bates case. While I agree his facial features do look a lot like the sketch, I need to see pics of him in 1969

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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:40 am

patinky wrote:
smithy wrote:
... The guy in that first video has some problems with non-original spec magazines from what I recall, no? ....

Now, now, Smithy. Those are clips, not magazines. Razz
Potato, Tomato, Patinky! Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Morf13's POI, "JIMMY"   Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:35 am

morf13 wrote:
patinky wrote:
Random thoughts ....

Are there mountains in that area? Reverberation might make a real difference in how sound traveled.

Since Owen was in a car with a low-volume radio playing (according to Owen) and the engine running (by inference), half a mile away (who knows which way the wind was blowing, if at all), I see possibilities for both claims of hearing a shot vs not hearing it. What bothers me more is he didn't report it initially. NO BODY with common sense fails to report the sound of a gunshot in the vicinity of a shooting when being questioned by a cop about said shooting.

FWIW, the guy's photo looks remarkably like the composite to me, more so than anyone else's I've seen. Since Owen worked graveyard how would this work within the time frames of opportunity? He may have had time before clocking in at work on Friday nights; maybe he was off for holidays for some. But ... I can't see him fitting the Cheri Jo Bates homicide.

Good points Patinky! I am one of the most honest and impartial people with a POI, or at least I hope so, and I also like to point put things that seem to NOT fit my poi, such as most of the z letters being mailed in SF. Owen lived in Vallejo and worked in Benicia, so that seems to not fit. I also can't fit Owen into Riverside or the Bates case. While I agree his facial features do look a lot like the sketch, I need to see pics of him in 1969

I DID find a photo of him that appears to be likely from the late 50's or early to mid 60's. I will NOT post it here,but if anybody want a copy I will PM it to them. He is NOT wearing glasses in the photo,but if you added glasses,he looks similar to that sketch

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