Fred Manalli

TRAV.....this is great work,thanks for the effort.

The comparison you made reading 'BATES HAD TO DIE' looks like its from the same writer. I wish we had some smoking gun putting Manalli in Riverside. That writing is uncanny,thanks for the effort

No probs,

This really has become a case of the sheer amount of matching variations almost becoming as important as identical letters because there isn't always a match for each one.

I think this recent comp shows just how close these similarities are, especially when you start getting down to being able to create alphabets that match visually.

I don't know about you Morf but this guy melts my head.

BTW the very last E on the last bates letter. I think he messed it up and then corrected it that's why I've shown both of Manalli's upper case E's. He didn't want to use the more unique E I think it's the same for his z's which look like backward versions of his unique E's.

TRAV, Can you do an enlarged closeup of the 'BATES HAD TO DIE' comparison?

The Bates Had To Die comparisons are making my head melt too!

The "RE" in "MORE" is amazing. The entire series of "Bates Had To Die" comparisons give me goose bumps.

Another thing that keeps nagging at me is Manalli's death date and bam ... Zodiac seems to have disappeared.

The Paradise book.

His height.

His location/residence.

The one big negative on this guy is the Stine murder and what is known about the fleeing suspect. I just can't see an officer making such a major error in a suspect's height.

Yeah I know.

This guy doesn't seem to fit. Maybe that's what makes it intriguing. All I can do is work through the handwriting. I couldn't even being to try and explain the appearance aspects.

More stuff. Regarding the mirror effect - it's not strictly mirroring but that's what I 'm calling it. Zodiac does it too.

Spotted this by accident. Look at the W's here. The are the same but they aren't. They are both drawn in the same direction but they are opposites of each other in shape. Small loop to big loop on one then big loop to small loop on the other. So weird. That's another oddity shared. That 's' one was BTW - That is the only place Zodiac uses it on that one page of the bus bomb letter. Manalli uses it aout 3 times in all his pages and I have the exact match for it - will post in another post though as it's part of similar things.

That's what I was working on when I spotted the w's.



EDIT: Actually I've just realized it's weirder than that. The w thing occurs on the two words that are unique in zodiacs writing because of that 'th' and
that 's' - Manalli does both.

Ok here's a preview. (Work in progress)

I saw a better 'th' so those are just placements. The 's is the one I was looking for, the others are placements. Manlli's t's match a variation of Zodiac's ampersand or +. The 'O' on Manalli's one matches Zodiac's weird 'open' ampersand but again in a reversed, mirror way. There is another of Manalli's 't's' that match Zodiac usual ampersand exactly, still looking for it again though and then on to O's and zeros, I think there may be a reversal of direction on both accounts for these.



Actually just found previous work on the 'th'

There's maybe more detail here that's being lost in the posting. Here's a blow up of a section of the last bates letter. The letter writer suddenly uses an upper case R with a little tick at the start.

Manalli's example doesn't but I've used it because the shape is closer. Does that bother me? No - look at the other examples of Manalli's R's below it - bingo. His writing has been like this all along. Dead end, then a door opens.

I want to correct a statement I made earlier.

I said that Manalli's handwriting was 99% cursive. That is incorrect. Whilst looking at this tonight I've realized that his writing is a woven mixture of both. He uses a chaotic mix even in the same word. 2 letters cursive, 3 print, 1 cursive, 1 print - that chaotic. At a glance it looks cursive but when you look at it it's a total mixed bag that flows to create his style.

Within that chaos there are different styles that don't appear progressive ie he can suddenly switch to a different style used years earlier. It's like a typeface pick n mix.

I hope someday an analyst can look at this writing and see what they can tell about him from it.

I feel like a scientist with this stuff. As I work I find myself almost unable to avoid having theories to explain why some things appear to be happening. My most recent has kinda stunned me a little bit because as soon as it popped into my head it made possible sense of events in the case and even why other people's theories exist. I say popped, it was more like exploded and I wasn't expecting it - it was all down to Manalli's hand writing and one page in particular that had at least 3 different styles on it, flowing together.

The jist of it involves multiple personalities (something I know nothing about). That's why I was doing riddles n stuff in chit-chat, that was the minute it occurred to me.

I won't spell it out here because even tho Maniili research inspired it I don't want to tie it exclusively to him as it could be relevant to other POI's so I will start a new thread at a later point. Although I will say that a prerequisite would probably have to be a pre-existing and possibly progressive & aggressive psychiatric condition and also a level of complexity in their writing akin to Manalli's.

It sounds like a plausible work of fiction but possibly because it would be a great movie plot lol. There are interesting elements to it though that would tie it to many threads and discussions so even if it's rubbish there may be something useful in it.

I will do it soon but it is late / early here and I just wanted to give you all a head's up and a bit of background thinking as to why I would be suddenly discussing this type of theory.

patinky wrote:

The one big negative on this guy is the Stine murder and what is known about the fleeing suspect. I just can't see an officer making such a major error in a suspect's height.

Bear in mind that Fouke saw Zodiac for less than ten seconds, and at a distance. Another report cites him as estimating Zodiac's height as six-foot-two.

Excellent and interessting work Trav and Morf!!!

I think it's time for LE proffessional handwriting expert to check out this Manalli stuf.

Thanks TF.

Yes I agree. Even to find out if this is normal lol, all these styles in one persons handwriting, I don't think it is.

Not sure if this was discussed but Manalli was in both of these in HS/College


Naughty Marietta (operetta)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naughty_Marietta_(operetta)


Rio Rita (musical)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rio_Rita_(musical)


He was also A Capella & Madrigal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madrigal

Astounding work, Trav! Brilliant, really! I agree with The Foreigner.

Thanks Nachtsider. Did you mean the Hartnell reference to Zodiac being nearly as tall as Hartnell? Or did someone besides Fouke believe think the Stine suspect was 6'2"? I don't remember a Stine report giving that height but hey, I forget more than I remember now days!

Thank you Patinky.

This is the second time Manalli mentions driving a taxi as a job. It is the first time he mentions the possibility of working in the Shipyard for a living. I wonder if he did either and where. Did he know anyone that was a taxi driver?

Stine was going to SF university,correct? I think that Manalli went there too,but years earlier. I think SEAGULL knows the details

Trav here are the addresses of the cab companies in SF 1969/70. Are any of them near where Manalli lived?

Yes, Morf Manalli did go to SF State College. He went in the first half of the '60's because by 1965 he was teaching at SRJC.

Personally, even though I'm not convinced that Manalli could have been Zodiac, I find his job at San Quentin Prison most intriguing. If he were Zodiac he could have learned so much there from the prisoners, particularly forgers who could have unknowingly given him tips on handwriting disguise not to mention those prisoners who were imprisoned for murder. You can learn from other people's mistakes and there was a large pool to draw from!

Seagull wrote:

Yes, Morf Manalli did go to SF State College. He went in the first half of the '60's because by 1965 he was teaching at SRJC.

Personally, even though I'm not convinced that Manalli could have been Zodiac, I find his job at San Quentin Prison most intriguing. If he were Zodiac he could have learned so much there from the prisoners, particularly forgers who could have unknowingly given him tips on handwriting disguise not to mention those prisoners who were imprisoned for murder. You can learn from other people's mistakes and there was a large pool to draw from!

Ott was at San Quentin too.

Are we finding a new team Zodiac?

LOL! I think that Ott was too young to have been at San Quentin when Manalli taught there in the early '60's.

C HARRY OTT is what is on the Leo card not SEE HARRY OTT.

AK Wilks wrote:

C HARRY OTT is what is on the Leo card not SEE HARRY OTT.

What I meant was, that the one FBI file(forget the exact wording) stated that CHARIOTT may have translated to C HARRY OTT (see Harry Ott)

Seagull wrote:

LOL! I think that Ott was too young to have been at San Quentin when Manalli taught there in the early '60's.

I was joking, but according to TheForgeiner's post Ott was in SQ in '62.

Oh Really For some reason I didn't think he was that old. This case causes serious information overload!

Seagull wrote:

Oh Really For some reason I didn't think he was that old. This case causes serious information overload!

Is your brain melting now, too, Seagull.