Fred Manalli

traveller1st wrote:

Thanks for posting Morf.

I found the little dialogue he has with himself regarding the conversation had about the shoe repair shop where, after been told that the shoes are sold at cost after a certain time he ponders with the words "at what cost?and sold to whom?". I just have to wonder about the implication here - what is he suggesting to the reader? The "at what cost" part I can understand, perhaps suggesting an unseen series of events that could be affected by, or already have happened, that somehow involve your shoes not being collected and ultimately sold.

The bit I'm no so sure about is the "to whom?". When coupled with "at what cost?" as it is, it suggests a cost incurred due to the shoes being sold to a certain person. There is also mention of a stitching machines as well.

Is this just a coincidence?

https://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t1076p45-the-shoe-salesman#31269

There was an old map posted at DKs board at one time. Thought I had it copied but unable to find it at present. It was spelled Paradice on there. Don't remember if Piddles or someone else posted it.

Are you talking about Kauffy's board? I can't imagine anyone posting an old map there, unless it had something to do with "Jack the Zodiac."

Maybe the map has some significance in relation to Manelli, but any information on that site, I would take with a grain of salt.

Little bit of Manalli related Zynchronicity.




Plot: THE CHIEF IS BACK ON THE JOB. When a shocking double homicide rocks the
quiet town of Paradise, Jesse...

As I'm sure you all know that I think there is something about Manalli's writing that I can't quite put my finger on or at least haven't found a reasonable way to explain yet.

I look at it on and off and will present more when I can. Even when I look now at it still I keep finding things and it still surprises me and I mean in a spine tingly way. I thought that would have worn off by now but it hasn't. I couldn't quite understand why his writing would have so many little things interspersed throughout it and even within those have variations that seem to either match Zodiac's or appear to be a mirrored version of them.

Then we come to Zodiac's writing itself. Was it disguised? Well there seem to be suggestions that it may have been but there's no definitive answer to that. Then there was the suggestion that's been around for a while now that he copied his writing from different sources. Again no answer or proof either way on that.

Considering these things together an idea occurred to me that might satisfy all of those criteria. It's probably unlikely but it's more of a complete idea at least.

He did copy the writing but not from different sources or different people, from himself. He created a chart of characters with variations of certain characters to choose from. Flip this one, mirror that one and have it as a rough reference board to pick n choose from as opposed to tracing them. Kinda like having symbols to choose from for a cipher. It would be a pretty neat way to create a different writing style but still be a style that you can write in because it is still your writing style, kinda. Plus you still have the freedom to vary even more between the reference stage and application so that it retains some fluidity.

It may be convoluted and impractical in practice but it's how I might approach it, in theory anyway. Whether its right or wrong it gives an explanation, to me at least, of why characters here and there in Manalli's writing appear in Zodiac's writing as either damn close, spot on, mirrored or a variation.

EDIT: There is a suggestion of this in Zodiac's writing itself where he uses variations or even a different style of this like the g or ampersand to name a few.

Good thinking TRAV...Fred's writing still looks good too, lots of Zodiac's habits etc visible. Personally, I cant see him tracing his own(or anybody else's)writing,it would take hours upon hours. I think I could write one letter in my own writing, and one nmy disguised writing and make them different,no tracing at all. Here are two pages I just wrote in less than a minute.....



Yes,I know, both letters look like a serial killer's handwriting , but one of them is in my natural everyday writing, and one is in my 'hidden' writing that I accomplished by holding the pen in a different way in my fingers. There may be some similarity, butI think anybody would agree, there certainly is not any direct match that screams out that I wrote both letters. I think the same is true of Manalli's writing

I agree, tracing would take far too long and that's why I'm thinking some kind of rough reference or guide to glance at as a reminder of what you are working with.

Alas though I still can't shake the feeling that Zodiac's writing isn't just his own. I mean I have seen other people writing that have those little variations in them as well. So it is just and idea as to how you would go about disguising your writing beyond merely slanting it or writing quickly.

Morph, They look the same to me.... but is it because the similarities genuinely stand out or is it because I know that they are by the same person so I'm tricking myself into seeing what may or may not really be similarities? It's that power of suggestion that I hate and always nags at me when I'm trying to look at writing comparisons.

But I think these kinds of experiments are helpful. I wonder a lot if in doing any kind of such comparisons, not just handwriting, if it would be good to throw in red herrings just to see how it effected the results.

They look the same to me as well despite the differences - try harder young ZODIAC lol.

EDIT - you forgot to change the k's they both look like weird swastika's

The Saga Continues.

Here I have taken 4 Zodiac Letters. The Stine letter and the Belli letter as they had pieces of Paul stine's Shirt, then two contentious ones, the Badlands card and one of the Bates letters and the car door. No real reason, just wanted a nice spread.

I took the Stine letter first and compiled a lower case alphabet from its character and tried to keep them typically zodiac ones as we know them. I then did the same for the other 3 letters.

So, four lowercase alphabets written by Zodiac. Four distinct styles that work as an alphabet in flow and form.

Now ...

To Manalli.

I have approx 36 pages of written material in the form of letters covering the 60's - mid 70's.(Thanks to Seagull). I then opened a file and set about looking for a match to that first 'a' then 'b' and so on for that first alphabet. Going through every page sometimes 8-10 times over as I kept finding better matches for previous alphabets as I worked on the current one.

There is of course the car door and the Bates letter which were too short to provide an alphabet. So they were just matched as is.

I want to point out that the Zodiac alphabets have not been altered. They have been cut n pasted straight in and and only sized as a whole once complete. There has been no flipping, turning, skewing applied to the individual characters. Their size proportions to each other are the same as they were to each other in the letter.

The same has been done with the Manalli alphabets except that these characters have been picked from a larger source over many pages and spanning many years in some cases so minor individual sizing was necessary to ensure ease of comparison. There was hardly any needed though. Again it was minor re-sizing, not turning or compressing, nuttin.

The writing's we have are 99% cursive. So every single character has been pulled from a sea of cursive with all of Zodiacs alphabets interspersed and mixed up in it.

Out of 36 pages, Manalli's writing was able to provide (in my strong estimation) 3 alphabets to match the styles of of the Zodiac's 3 alphabets and also have a high degree of visually matching characters within those alphabets.

The car door's being a bit annoying so it's just rough work at the minute but once I concentrate solely on it the others will get even better through finding better characters as will it.

This stuff now isn't even finished and there's lots more to come and to be pulled onto a larger picture. Look forward to your comments.





UPDATED LARGE PIC

Well, the Belli letter and Badlands exemplar have blown my mind.

Great job.

Blew mine too.

Oh and all of Zodiac's variations on his own characters that ren't shown here - Manalli has matches for those as well.

I only discovered within the last hour but I think I've found evidence that Manalli could mirror write. which means there's a reason for the mirrored characters.

Can you tell me anything about the "q"'s? Especially from the Belli letter. The comparison for the Stine letter look Ok, but a little off. Then you got Z's "q" from the Belli letter that looks nothing like the previous one, but it looks really weird and FM's is a weird one too that looks a pretty good match. That's something that really stood out to me.

Can't really tell you any more than you can see. Both q's end with a figure 8 sign off. Construction direction is the same.

For some perspective - no pun inteded - some of those characters of Manalli's only appear once in 36 pages. His y for example that 's the only one his usual y is a loopy thing. Oh AND HIS L/C q - the 8 THING only ever used it once.

duckking2001 wrote:

Can you tell me anything about the "q"'s? Especially from the Belli letter. The comparison for the Stine letter look Ok, but a little off. Then you got Z's "q" from the Belli letter that looks nothing like the previous one, but it looks really weird and FM's is a weird one too that looks a pretty good match. That's something that really stood out to me.

I had an issue with the Q as well. Both are slightly different from each other, but at the same time, both look unusual. But then I said to myself, hell, forget the Q, the other 25 are very close, so for me, the 25 similar letters override the different Q.

I also thought that the 'BATES HAD TO DIE' letters looked very close to Manalli. It;s really frustrating that we can not find any evidence of Manalli being in Riverside despite Graysmith's claims that he did have ties there.

Don't worry about the non really close matches. Also look at the pen weight the angles of the letters the different b's and g's and the others and that they appear in both, the same construction.

I don't know odds but they gotta be decent. I'm quite stunned by it TBH.

EDIT: Actually I think I can explain why. Think of the examples above as typefaces. If I were looking at those as a designer, which I am doing lol, I would think those alphabets beside each other were part of the same family and created by the same person because of the styles.

That's why I'm stunned by it.

traveller1st wrote:

Blew mine too.

Oh and all of Zodiac's variations on his own characters that ren't shown here - Manalli has matches for those as well.

I only discovered within the last hour but I think I've found evidence that Manalli could mirror write. which means there's a reason for the mirrored characters.

I have heard of mirror writing but never knew exactly how it was done (I know the magic of the brain does it ... in theory ) Your work is fantastic ... seriously.

Manalli and Ted K. are my favorite two possibilities now but Morf's Owen guy who just died sure has a lot of facial characteristics that look good too.

Thanks again for all this hard work. I feel a bit lazy just sitting back reading every one else's hard work.

In reviewing the dozens of pages and posts in the Manalli thread, I have compiled a list of my favorite and most interesting things:

*At the same time Zodiac was writing about 'Slaves in Paradise", Manalli was getting ready to have his story called 'Paradise, it's a nice place' published.

*Both Manalli & Zodiac, write about circles of light, or wording/phrasing that are very similar to each other-


* Both Zodiac & Manalli write about 'hanging by thumbs'-


* Both Zodiac & Manalli use the same exact symbol for the word 'and', and not only is it the same symbol, but it looks like the same handwriting-


* BothZodiac & Manalli use a 'half W'. Seems like a vert tell-tale similarity, a truly odd habit-


* Both Zodiac & Manalli call their letters, 'notes'-


* Zodiac referred to himself as a RED PHANTOM, and Manalli uses RED to refer to himself-


* Manalli wrote alot of stuff that showed he might be capable of violence, and even seemed to indicate he had committed violent acts-











* Both Zodiac & Manalli use the term 'whatshisname'-



* Both Zodiac & Manalli used the word 'SHALL' quite a bit, so much so, that some people wondered if Zodiac might be english since the word was not really used by Americans in 1969-


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* Both Zodiac & Manalli write the word 'PUBLIC' in a strange way, it looks as if its in the shape of a rainbow-


* Both Zodiac & Manalli almost 'keep score' in the same way-



* Here is a slew of writing similarities and habits that seem uncanny between Zodiac & Manalli-














* The fact that Manalli writes about James Joyce and Finnegan's Wake, is of major interest, because that book has purposely misspelled words that are used & misspelled the same exact way by Zodiac

If you add this altogether with TRAV's side by side breakdowns of ZOdiac's and Manalli's writing, its overwhelming. It's easy to explain away one or two similarities, but when we compare Zodiac & Manalli, and find a long list like this, it's pretty alarming.

And this will most likely remain an unsolved mystery, but this personal ad placed in the SF Chronicle a couple days after Manalli died in a car accident, really fascinates me . It sounds from the terminology "deep real estate", that somebody is dead, like 6 ft under....maybe its a coincidence as we have seen before, but the timing is so great, you couldnt make this stuff up-
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[quote="patinky"]

traveller1st wrote:

Blew mine too.

Oh and all of Zodiac's variations on his own characters that ren't shown here - Manalli has matches for those as well.

I only discovered within the last hour but I think I've found evidence that Manalli could mirror write. which means there's a reason for the mirrored characters.

I have heard of mirror writing but never knew exactly how it was done (I know the magic of the brain does it ... in theory ) Your work is fantastic ... seriously.

Manalli and Ted K. are my favorite two possibilities now but Morf's Owen guy who just died sure has a lot of facial characteristics that look good too.

Thanks again for all this hard work. I feel a bit lazy just sitting back reading every one else's har



I think it's mirror writing. I'll probably have to you tube to make sure - the name makes sense for it anyway.

I also think....stand well back.....here comes the math's......maybe. Bet I get this wrong lol.


I think..... it's like asking what are the odds of taking 4 different styles of hand writing mixing them together and creating a 5th typeface that looks nothing like any of them? I think.

(end of how many times can I say 'think' game ......I......It.....Ith......hopefully, phew)

Okay, I am determined not to read more into Trav and Morf's writing and style analyses than what is there but that many similarities can not be coincidence.

Good job, Trav and Morf! Been wishing one of ya'll would do a "Best of Manalli as Zodiac". This is just what I wanted to see.

Trav wrote:
I only discovered within the last hour but I think I've found evidence that Manalli could mirror write. which means there's a reason for the mirrored characters.

Wow!

At the very least I've got an idea for my junior Zodiac Detective Kit - handwriting trumps card lol. My 3 stroke K beats your 3 stroke K.

I'll post the mirror thing later. I have to go through every line and page to find it because it's east to miss.

In the mean time there's this. I could create a better match but here's a straight lift of Manalli's word 'guess' vs the one in the 'death machine car' letter. His writing is even similar to the hoaxes lol. Manalli uses the g shown here in the VPD elsewhere in his writing. He seems to interchange them, sometimes many times even in the same word on occasion.



Here's an example of different styles in one word. Also the word PERSPECTIVE on the other page is his - 2 different P,s 2 Different E's and he has a 3rd E he also uses.

Last night, I was reviewing all of this stuff, and putting an entire report together in a microsoft word file for Manalli, and by the time I was done, it was 30 pages long....30 pages of similairities, points of interest, etc....

I could see one or two things being similar between Manalli & Zodiac, but all of the stuff we have found just seems like a mountain of stuff. It seems too much to be a coincidence.

Here's the mirror-ish thing. Get you head's around this one, not sure I've seen this before in anyone's writing.

Update on previous stuff.

Morf mentioned his stuff coming to 30 page so far. You could also fill that with this stuff. There's so many similarities at every level. I'm gonna try and get the energy to now to look at the little matching mistakes which I think are very very significant. This stuff has taken over 20 hours so far but the variations and style matches are phenomenal and deserve that much attention.

Like Patinky, I too am trying to keep an open mind and am quite prepared to be amazed that people can have all these similarities and not be the same handwriting.

I have made a small collage of some of Manalli's letters and some random words to show you the style variations and what these similarities were taken from.

Some of the alphabets that have been presented already have also been improved.