Fred Manalli

Some more similarities in use of language. Lots of people have similar ways of saying certain things but in this instance I wanted to show that they are quite similar in context. For example in Mikado the line is actually just "leave it to you" no 'up'. Also the same use here of "as to" after the word curious.

Zodiac or not, given Manalli's career and writing and so on, it certainly useful to have an example of someone who uses language very similar to Zodiac and lends credence to the possibility that Zodiac, whoever he was, may have been of a similar ilk and surrounded by similar influences in his life - a similar background.

If we had even more materials from Manalli,I am quite sure we would find alot more stuff. I really like dthe way that both Manalli & Zodiac used the word SATERICAL/SATIRICAL.

More than likely. Just wanted to get those ones posted as they jumped at me.

traveller1st wrote:

Some more similarities in use of language. Lots of people have similar ways of saying certain things but in this instance I wanted to show that they are quite similar in context. For example in Mikado the line is actually just "leave it to you" no 'up'. Also the same use here of "as to" after the word curious.

Zodiac or not, given Manalli's career and writing and so on, it certainly useful to have an example of someone who uses language very similar to Zodiac and lends credence to the possibility that Zodiac, whoever he was, may have been of a similar ilk and surrounded by similar influences in his life - a similar background.

Re-looking at this again, the word & phrasing similarities are awesome. I also found Manalli using the word 'SHALL' a couple more times. This guy looks better & better. And wow....both using the word COMPLY

Found this interesting.

The "g's" - I was working on the Count Marco card (which, after some things I've noticed, consider genuine) and I became aware of not only similarity in the shapes but also a pattern in them.

The pattern concerns the use of the double g's in this example and I've seen this elsewhere throughout the letters - zodiac and manalli. When using doubles there is a slight variation on the type of g used, in the second double in the sequence. On the Marco card the second double is slightly shorter and starts to curve inward toward the first g. Manalli's does the same. Manalli loops his second g in the series and, depending on how heavy he is with the pen, it can look like second g is curving in - like the Marco card.

And finally....the obvious bit - there's two types of g used by the zodiac and Manalli. The one with the curled tail and the straight one with the smaller head.

Left hand tick from Zodiac and Manalli, This may prove important later on. Sorry for being cryptic but I can't be bothered explaining lol.......ah to hell with it. It may concern use of alternating ticks - I say may because I can't be bothered looking.

traveller1st wrote:

Found this interesting.

The "g's" - I was working on the Count Marco card (which, after some things I've noticed, consider genuine) and I became aware of not only similarity in the shapes but also a pattern in them.

The pattern concerns the use of the double g's in this example and I've seen this elsewhere throughout the letters - zodiac and manalli. When using doubles there is a slight variation on the type of g used, in the second double in the sequence. On the Marco card the second double is slightly shorter and starts to curve inward toward the first g. Manalli's does the same. Manalli loops his second g in the series and, depending on how heavy he is with the pen, it can look like second g is curving in - like the Marco card.

And finally....the obvious bit - there's two types of g used by the zodiac and Manalli. The one with the curled tail and the straight one with the smaller head.

The two styles of G from both is yet another item on the checklist

Does Manalli have any children? Is there any way you can obtain his DNA?
I'm having trouble finding hard evidence against this man, aside from a cartoon sketch
found by his ex-wife and her new husband, that points towards the Santa Rose crimes.
Any evidence he owned guns and knew how to use them, did he hunt, any evidence of
violent acts, what kind of vehicles did he drive, etc.? Why would he be hanging out in
Vallejo or Berryessa? It also appears he is an educated man who can spell.

Manalli did not have any children. He was buried, not cremated, in a Santa Rosa cemetery. As I have said in previous posts, there is a possibility that he could be exhumed and a sample of his DNA taken.

Manalli was in the Army so he would have had firearms training but I do not know if he owned a firearm. He was driving a van at the time of his death. I don't know what other vehicles he might have owned. He was divorced in 1972, his wife could have had a car. Manalli does not speak of his vehicles in his letters that I recall.

Santa Rosa is an hours drive from both Vallejo and Napa. Serial killers tend to start out farther from their homes and as they gain confidence in their ability to to get away with their crimes they tend to move closer to home. I'm not proposing that Manalli is the Zodiac just that it would be possible for a person like Manalli who lived in Santa Rosa to have been Zodiac.

Yes, Manalli was an educated man but given what Traveller learned and presented about the novel Finnegans Wake, which could apply to any suspect, my opinion is that Zodiac's mispellings are deliberate.

onewhoknows wrote:

Does Manalli have any children? Is there any way you can obtain his DNA?
I'm having trouble finding hard evidence against this man, aside from a cartoon sketch
found by his ex-wife and her new husband, that points towards the Santa Rose crimes.
Any evidence he owned guns and knew how to use them, did he hunt, any evidence of
violent acts, what kind of vehicles did he drive, etc.? Why would he be hanging out in
Vallejo or Berryessa? It also appears he is an educated man who can spell.

Its very hard to get information about people from 35-40 years ago. Whether they shot guns,etc. Thats a problem with alot of suspects & POI's. ONEWHOKNOWS, you are lucky to have personally known & lived with your suspect. You knew him as wellas anybody could. But that is rare, most of the suspects & POI's dont have that information provided by somebody close to them. The only way to know about Manalli's use of guns,etc, would be to talk to somebody that knew him personally.

I didn't start off looking at Manalli as a favorite suspect. I thought he was interesting in the Santa Rosa murders,and also because of him being linked to the Zodiac case by Graysmith. It wasn't until I was skimming thru his writings that I noticed what I thought was a similarity in writing to Zodiac. I asked Trav to take a look,and then everything else started falling into place.

*Manalli mentions James Joyce. Low & behold, James Joyce has a book FILLED with many of the same misspelled words as used by Zodiac,misspelled in the same exact ways.

*Manalli frequently uses the word 'SHALL'. Zodiac was awfully fond of that word too.

*Many of thewriters mentioned by Manalli, were featured in a 1968 book. Included in that book, was the writing of Manalli's friends, Daniel Curley. As it happens, THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME was in that book as well. Zodiac referenced THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME.

*In 1969, Zodiac used the words 'SLAVES IN PARADISE'. At that same time, Manlli was writing a book called 'PARADISE,ITS A NICE PLACE'.

*Both Zodiac & Manalli use the word 'SATIRICAL'(of course Z spells it wrong). Thats NOT a word used frequently whatsoever.

*Multiple times, Manalli writes of violence, and even writes the term 'GOD HELP ME BEFORE I KILL MORE'. Almost exactly as Zodiac writes it in the letter to Belli.

*Zodiac wrote 'RED WITH RAGE' & Manalli wrote(underlining RED)'Thed RED reveals a homicidal tendency'

*Both Zodiac & Manalli refer to theor letters as 'notes'

*Zodiac wrote 'RATHER LEAVE IT UP TO YOU' & Manalli wrote 'ILL LEAVE IT UP TO YOU'

*Zodiac wrote 'THEY HAVE NOT COMPLIED' & Manalli wrote 'DO MY BEST TO COMPLY'

*Zodiac wrote 'MILDLY CURIOUS AS TO' & Manalli wrote 'IM CURIOUS AS TO'

Add ALL of this to the many, many writing similarities between Zodiac & Manalli,and it seems it is more than some random similarity or Zyncronicity. I challenge ANYBODY to lay out a suspect's side by side writings with Zodiac's like we have done here with Manalli, and show the same amount of similarities,and use of common words & phrases. I highly doubt that any suspect or POI can be compared so favorably side by side with Zodiac

morf13 wrote:

Add ALL of this to the many, many writing similarities between Zodiac & Manalli,and it seems it is more than some random similarity or Zyncronicity. I challenge ANYBODY to lay out a suspect's side by side writings with Zodiac's like we have done here with Manalli, and show the same amount of similarities,and use of common words & phrases. I highly doubt that any suspect or POI can be compared so favorably side by side with Zodiac

Are you serious? Look here: https://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t117p30-kaczynski-and-zodiac-shared-words-and-phrases#29969

With Manalli you show some matches and several similar phrases, but there we have over two dozen matches, including exact matches of rare phrases like RATHER MESSY, AROUND IN THE SNOW, CONTRARY TO WHAT POLICE SAY, etc.

Please take a look...I mention it in direct response to your question.

I think you guys are doing some good work on this interesting suspect. I would ask if he had any knowledge of or training in codes. And the key question is if he was the Santa Rosa killer, he is a very good Z suspect, if he is not, well then he is still interesting but you don't have proof of capacity to kill.

AK Wilks wrote:

morf13 wrote:

Add ALL of this to the many, many writing similarities between Zodiac & Manalli,and it seems it is more than some random similarity or Zyncronicity. I challenge ANYBODY to lay out a suspect's side by side writings with Zodiac's like we have done here with Manalli, and show the same amount of similarities,and use of common words & phrases. I highly doubt that any suspect or POI can be compared so favorably side by side with Zodiac

Are you serious? Look here: https://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t117p30-kaczynski-and-zodiac-shared-words-and-phrases#29969

With Manalli you show some matches and several similar phrases, but there we have over two dozen matches, including exact matches of rare phrases like RATHER MESSY, AROUND IN THE SNOW, CONTRARY TO WHAT POLICE SAY, etc.

Please take a look...I mention it in direct response to your question.

I think you guys are doing some good work on this interesting suspect. I would ask if he had any knowledge of or training in codes. And the key question is if he was the Santa Rosa killer, he is a very good Z suspect, if he is not, well then he is still interesting but you don't have proof of capacity to kill.

AK, those phrases, etc are similar to zodiac's as well, However, I am also looking at the overall writing...phrases, choice of words, and similarity in writing structure and formation.

Not sure if Manalli 'could kill' but he certainly wrote that he could, including strangling people and using the phrase 'GOD SAVE ME- CATCH ME BEFORE I KILL MORE'.

This guy pointed out an author & book, that book contains MANY of the Zodiac's misspelled words...CHRISTMASS, WOEMAN,etc

The guy was writing a book called ....PARADISE,ITS A NICE PLACE, around the time Zodiac used the phrase 'slaves in Paradise'. The guy uses the word 'SHALL' in several letters.

He shares a very distinct similarity in writing as seen here-


AK, It's not a competition, or question of why one suspect is better. I certainly don't think so anyhow. I have little interest in whether anybody is or is not sold on any particular suspect. Trav and I are just laying out our findings, as you have done with your suspect. Whil I certainly would like to see Manalli 'on a silver platter, with an address in Vallejo and a membership to the NRA, I can only present what I can find

I understand. Since you asked if any other suspect has many matches to Z, I will invite you and others to look here:

http://www.unazod.com/style.html

And then here:

https://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t117p30-kaczynski-and-zodiac-shared-words-and-phrases#29969

Other than that, rock on, keep looking, you and Trav and others have found some good stuff! I would like to get Manalli's DNA for sure.

I struck out getting a more recent photo of Fred Manalli. I had a very helpful person at the college where he taught that went thru all of the 1960's and 70's yearbooks, and found ZERO photos of him. The only thing they found was a listing of his name under the 'not pictured' list.

In response to AK and OWK.

They are very good questions regarding Manalli's provenance concerning codes, firearms and even the ability to kill or commit violence.

Morf and Seagull have done a great job answering the possible connotations of those things, and that he was in the army, in his own writings. The codes connection it could be suggested are there through the Joyce connection and JF Bryce. There are many, many things (as Morf showed) that can be alluded to in Manalli's writing and just obvious stuff either. There's also stuff that doesn't need allusion but is it for real or just Manalli's thought's on paper and nothing more? We don't know.

Then we have Teddy K. Officially identified and incarcerated whacko can't get any more solid). Guns, knives, bombs, codes. disguises. The handwriting is very good (will be looking at that at some point). Again similar use of words and phrases. And much more.

So...on paper and in reality - Teddy K looks way better. Hands down but then he has to - he's a convicted terrorist/killer and maybe more. There's not only weight of evidence but also proof the ability to commit certain acts with certain tools.

But that was from his "work" stuff. what about his personal letters to his family or brother - I assume they weren't they full of direct references to his nefarious activities.

With Manalli's stuff we only have personal letters so with that in mind it would be interesting to see how any of Teddy K's personal letters compare against Manalli's for overall tone and content. Not only would that be a more unbiased comparison but it would be good to see if there are any similarities between a known murderer's personal writings and a POI's letters of the same nature.

I have found myself asking the questions AK and OWK have asked and I did wonder - how much of a killers (work habits) would filter through in everyday writing, if any. Would something like the ciphers be represented in a direct way or would it be more obscure? I would tend towards the latter if you were actively avoiding attention. I would imagine the last thing a killer would do, if the importance of ciphers was being splashed all over the media, would be to use something, or even reference it, so obviously incriminating in every day use. But would that be the case? Don't know for sure.

I just can't ignore the line - I have been too clever for them. From what I've seen and it's just MHO, Zodiac was clever and he was cunning and capable of lateral thinking and planning. He wasn't necessarily all that careful but he tried to be. Problem is clever and careful aren't always easy to balance but I think Zodiac did a pretty good job of it. There's a feeling in the tone of what Zodiac writes, that that seems very much like the zodiac is a character, an alter ego and in the wearing of a costume at Berryessa. Considering the most popular reference we have for that, comics, movies etc, the one thing that a character must keep hidden is his true IDENTITY. Zodiac writes that "in this cipher is my idenity [sic]" then writes "I will not give you my name" or in other words - his true IDENTITY. The 408 contained what the Zodiac promised - the Zodiac's Identity - actually a mini manifesto or biog of the killer's alter ego - the Zodiac.

The point I'm trying to make is that I would expect there to be little or no direct reference to the alter ego or his activities in the "name" or "true identity's" everyday writing. There would be a separation, on multiple levels, from the alter ego and the person in everyday life and activities ...... "the rest of the time I look completely different"

I think the Zodiac may have been like that or rather "name" was because the Zodiac is just a construct, a parallel existence that didn't exist. I think that the killer may have done more than create a "name" in using Zodiac. I think (and remember he's as good as said this himself) he created an IDENTITY. The character would do things and say things. Even speak and act in a certain way that the real identity doesn't in normal life ensuring that the character is as 'different' as possible from the real person. Ensuring that no part of the character leaked into everyday life - it's like the killer is a completely different person. I could see a would be murderer/serial killer thinking that would be clever - create a character, even with a back story to assist yourself in playing that character whilst doing your crimes so that anything regarding appearance, voice, walk etc etc doesn't get brought back into the true identities life. It's like the killer is phantom, only seem to exist for sure when he's killing.

A hunter who may or may not have gotten his rocks off with a girl. An escaped convict trying to get to mexico after killing a guard from an escape we're not sure happened. Wore a Disguise. Has a symbol. Has a walking impediment and speaks with no accent. By day a mild mannered ..................... (insert likely profession to suit your POI)

I would imagine this skill would be something a writer would be good at - character building.

Oh and course there's the possibility that if the Zodiac was as much of a created character as I've suggested, his creator may not have been all that sure if his acting skills at first if that phone call to the police sounded like it was being read from a script because it was lol.

morf13 wrote:

I struck out getting a more recent photo of Fred Manalli. I had a very helpful person at the college where he taught that went thru all of the 1960's and 70's yearbooks, and found ZERO photos of him. The only thing they found was a listing of his name under the 'not pictured' list.

Mr elusive. Maybe he thought photographs steal your soul. Thanks for trying.

Whether or not he owned a gun I couldn't say but he may have been having an affair with one lol.

Ok I will do more on this but as the writing in the Marco letter (note?) is stylised this is probably the bulk of the interesting ones.

Morf: "1960's and 70's yearbooks, and found ZERO photos of him."

There were NO pictures of Manelli in all those years as part of the faculty of SRJC?

I can understand being left out for a year or two, but the lack of photos for all those years is something suspicious. It is like Manelli deliberately did not want his photo seen.

One suggestion: You could check the 1975 yearbook, especially the English Department, and see if you can locate anyone who is listed as they probably knew Manelli - I am sure most of the staff in that book are retired now, and many may have passed.

I have the impression Manelli was a social recluse, which means only a few people really knew him, and they are gone as well. If that is the case,
any faculty member, who was at SRJC at the time Manelli taught, would likely say Manelli was shy, kept to himself, etc, and nobody really knew him. That is just a guess, but based on the letters and behavior, I can't see him being popular, or socially active with fellow instructors.

trainmaster wrote:

Morf: "1960's and 70's yearbooks, and found ZERO photos of him."

There were NO pictures of Manelli in all those years as part of the faculty of SRJC?

I can understand being left out for a year or two, but the lack of photos for all those years is something suspicious. It is like Manelli deliberately did not want his photo seen.

One suggestion: You could check the 1975 yearbook, especially the English Department, and see if you can locate anyone who is listed as they probably knew Manelli - I am sure most of the staff in that book are retired now, and many may have passed.

I have the impression Manelli was a social recluse, which means only a few people really knew him, and they are gone as well. If that is the case,
any faculty member, who was at SRJC at the time Manelli taught, would likely say Manelli was shy, kept to himself, etc, and nobody really knew him. That is just a guess, but based on the letters and behavior, I can't see him being popular, or socially active with fellow instructors.

Manalli was NOT a full time teacher, and that is likely why he is not in the photos. The librarian told me that most of the part-time teachers were not shown. Also, he told me that around 69,they stopped yearbook production, so Manalli wouldnt have been in the yearbook photos in the 70's since they didnt have any.

I wonder if you would have any luck trying San Quentin for a photo. He taught there until the mid '60's I believe. I bet they photographed their employees. Something from the mid '60's would be better than the 1957 photo. Also have you tried San Francisco State where he got his masters degree?

Seagull wrote:

I wonder if you would have any luck trying San Quentin for a photo. He taught there until the mid '60's I believe. I bet they photographed their employees. Something from the mid '60's would be better than the 1957 photo. Also have you tried San Francisco State where he got his masters degree?

I checked with SF State, and they went thru the 60-64 yearbooks, and found no photo of Manalli. They stopped publishing yearbooks in 64. I really don't even know how to go about contacting the prison to look into finding a photo of him. But that made me think of something, between his prison teaching, his job at the college, and his military, he has to have prints on file someplace. If police want to look at him for ANY crimes, I think they could track down his prints.

traveller1st wrote:

Ok I will do more on this but as the writing in the Marco letter (note?) is stylised this is probably the bulk of the interesting ones.

The question mark at the end of Fred's letter looks quite similar to the question mark at the end of the Badlands letter, i.e. it looks like a "2". Jus' sayin'.

Manalli writes about a guy named Dostoievski in one of his letters. As it turns out, on an old ZK.com thread, a couple people were discussing that same guy mentioned by Manalli, in reference to Gaik. Here's the link:
http://zodiackiller.21.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?p=37197&sid=24455bd5e28ac15f7d5bff43bd739d03

Here's a quote from one member(you can simply sub the name MANALLI for GAIK)


" Yes, it's Dostoevsky, and this makes for what I think is a compelling argument about Gaikowski as the Zodiac, and why he was able to stop. One of Dostoevsky's most important books is Crime & Punishment (hinted at in the article); the main protagonist, Raskolnikov, imagines himself to be a revolutionary Superman in the Nietzschean mold, to whom rules do not apply and so he murders a pawnbroker and her sister, rationalizing it to be for the greater good.
If Gaikowski was thinking along the same lines, seeing himself as Raskolnikov, the Z murders could be seen as an attempt to destabilize society (a common theme of his other writings), for what he saw as the greater good, and which would be justified politically. Z in his letters stays very far away from politics other than taunting the wholly ineffectual police, since that would give up the game. But once it didn't take much effect, Gaikowski as not a deranged serial killer driven to kill, but goofy theorist trying to make a political statement through killings and more especially the letter writing, he was able to stop without any problem.
Anyway, it makes sense to me, and the more references to Dostoevsky I see in Gaik's writing the more I'm sure that it could be the explanation for why Z is doing his thing, and the persistent mystery of why he was able to stop so abruptly"

And here's another old ZK.com thread, discussing TEDK in reference to Dostoievski.
http://www.zodiackiller.com/mba/ozs/761.html

Once again, a quote from the poster:
"It's interesting to note that in the Kropotkin and Garnett translations of Dostoevsky the word "nasty" is used very frequently--even in the title of one of Dostoevsky's short stories, "A Nasty Tale." There must be some very frequently-used Russian word that corresponds closely in the same sense that we use it. Kaczynski was a big Dostoevsky reader. He got it from his mother"

I dont know enough about TedK or Gaik to know if either of them ever mentioned Dostoievski,but I know that Manalli did!

Hey waht do you know(this stuff is not surprising me anymore), Manalli mentions this guy:

Vladimir Nabokov .

Well guess what, there is an old ZK.com thread discussing him too:
http://zodiackiller.21.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?p=29165&sid=996eddb0bff18344182eac4335ae1db8

Even Ray Grant took notice:
http://www.thezodiacmurderssolved.com/1970_Letters.html

Even a thread on Opord:
http://www.opordanalytical.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=368&start=30

"The most famous example I can think of (which is also highly appropriate in this context) is The Vane Sisters* by Vladimir Nabokov (the author of Lolita). In the story the Narrator derides "paranoid" people who look for hidden messages in books and such; but if you take the final paragraph of the story it contains a hidden message about the Narrator not being everything they seem!
Nabokov was a big fan of ciphers, puzzles, word-play, and chess. Hmm, sounds familiar...."

Wow, Manalli sure has a habit of mentiong lots of people that seem in some way to link up to Zodiac. I guess its more coincidence.