Fred Manalli

Can we dig this guy up already?

These are whole word lifts to compare characters, spacing and overall form. I had to stop.

I could re-create exactly with individual characters barre the extremely flourished letters.

Stunned, again.

Update of this.

patinky wrote:

Thanks Nachtsider. Did you mean the Hartnell reference to Zodiac being nearly as tall as Hartnell? Or did someone besides Fouke believe think the Stine suspect was 6'2"? I don't remember a Stine report giving that height but hey, I forget more than I remember now days!

Fouke gave that figure in an initial broadcast, according to Mel Nicolai of the DOJ.

Thanks, Nachtsider. I don't think I knew this.

Trav, where do you want me to meet you with my shovel?

patinky wrote:

Thanks, Nachtsider. I don't think I knew this.

Trav, where do you want me to meet you with my shovel?

Hehehe, Actually I wonder where he is buried. Must read back.

In the meantime, here's how the car door is proceeding. It's probably been the least forthcoming regarding matches but then it is a different set of conditions we're looking at here. There are certain thing's like the p in sept that I don't think Zodiac himself used again or before. Still it's not bad. 6:30 is pretty much bang on, even down to the angle of the colon and the the larger dot at the bottom.

The other variations I have left in as well and will no doubt add more but probably not too much. As it is I was limited by this one anyway as it was mostly numbers and there far less of those to work from. Having said that I can still see matches in angles and of course even distorted width's with the like of the 6:30. Even the variation matches in the way the 6's were made.

The 'e' on knife is unique to the car door, as are quite a few of the characters, but even at that I'm pretty sure I can affect a shape match to one of Manalli's 'e's'. As it stands at the moment I have tried to stick to straight comparisons so nothing has been stretched or rotated and it's like for like ie if it's a 1 it's matched with a 1, not an i or lower case l for example. I say this because I could compare Manalli's z's to the 2's for a better visual match to show that he can, and has, created that shape on paper but to be honest I'd rather not. All the comp's so far have been 'pure' as I call them, like for like and no distortion other than minor, proportional, re-sizing.

I have found way too many striking similarities in so many aspects of this guy's writing, even down to habits that I have only touched on with regards the mirror thing, there are other shared habits. Simply put, I just keep finding thing's that rule the handwriting in rather than out and I wish I knew either way but I'm not an expert but not a novice either. I've spent enough years crafting typefaces and trying to untangle french curves to know shape and form matches when I see them and this guy's writing is riddled with them.

Geat work as usual TRAV.... The many, many similarities outscore any differences in my opinion.

morf13 wrote:

Geat work as usual TRAV.... The many, many similarities outscore any differences in my opinion.

Thanks Morf,

Yup, that's how I feel about it, it's 'drownding' in similarities right across the board.

EDIT: Some additions to this one.

Some of Manalli's writing looks the exact same as Zodiac's, but it might appear to be 'mirrored' as you call it.

I looked up 'mirrored' writing and Google has many results(including something different, like an ambulance that has its logo backwards so when you see it inyour rearview mirror, you can easily read the word ambulance). But i did find this book about handwriting ID & disguise, you may want to look at-

http://books.google.com/books?id=X-2XBySn0Q4C&pg=PA281&lpg=PA281&dq=%22mirrored+writing%22+%22disguise%22&source=bl&ots=UsoMoKaqXC&sig=XiKz8VF9lKxDL434rL6ldbBk_EA&hl=en#v=onepage&q=%22mirrored%20writing%22%20%22disguise%22&f=false

There are some helpful tips which we may want to consider in comparing Manalli's writing (and anybody else's)to Zodiac:

Nice one Morf,

Must get a read through that later. Very interesting.

I'm seeing a few more examples of 3 stroke Ks. Could you post a half dozen?

bentley wrote:

I'm seeing a few more examples of 3 stroke Ks. Could you post a half dozen?

I Am sure Trav can indeed. Who uses both 2 stroke & 3 stroke? It doesnt seem natural to use both. I myself am a 3stroker, and wouldnt do a 2 stroke unless I purposely tried to

Nope lol and actually Bents I think we only have two at most. One's enough for me though.

And Morf's right, this guy uses both and the same on the y's - he uses looped and zodiac y's. It's not different people it's one person in 5 minds.

traveller1st wrote:

Nope lol and actually Bents I think we only have two at most. One's enough for me though.

Really,I thought there were more?

morf13 wrote:

traveller1st wrote:

I was curious so I thought I'd see what this looked like. The height thing I can't account for but I wouldn't let facial features rule him out. I can see similarities. Particularly regarding the nose on the composite. If you look at it logically the I think the composite is trying to depict a long (or more on the long side than the short) nose and that would fit with Manalli. I've long pondered the nose thing as I'm sure we all have and wondered what the profile would look like.

It makes sense to me that the nose should have more of a pronounced profile than not because going by the length in the composite a flat nose at that length would look really weird.

His chin is interesting as well. It's a reasonably robust looking thing with a mound and a dimple. A feature that usually has the effect of making someone look heavy set or a 'bit of a bruiser' (think Marv in Sin City).

Last but not least, the glasses. I can attest to the fact that wearing thick rimmed glasses can do two relevant things to a person appearence. Providing a stronger focal point than the features, they can detract from things like a prominent nose or heavy eyebrows.

EDIT: Bear in mind this image is from 1957

For what its worth, the 3 girls at Berryessa described the mystery guy watching them as being 6ft-6ft2,certainly closer to Manalli's height(if the guy the girls seen was zodiac)
http://www.zodiackiller.com/LBReport10.html

On top of all this writing similarity with Manalli,I found myself staring at the side by side of Manalli & the Zodiac sketch again today. Certainly looks close enough in my eyes

It will look close - the composite can only ever be an approximation. All I know is that for my standards - this guys writing is off the chart - actually scrap that - HE IS THE CHART as far as handwriting is concerned. He displays full alphabets for 2 confirmed letters and damn close similarities - actually not similarities, variations of the same path.

My humble position is - unless someone more qualified can exclude him on handwriting then he wrote those letters. I would love to know either way. Sorry to get all adamant lol.

Well, Traveler, just don't use Nanette Barto!

Seriously, it is too bad Sherwood Morril has passed.

Has Napa Sheriff's Office given up now that funds are exhausted?
Perhaps they could request the FBI take a look at the handwriting.
Like NCIS, the FBI has excellent document examiners.

I know Manelli is out of the Napa jurisdiction, but more than one killing is involved, and these samples deserve a good scrutiny.

trainmaster wrote:

Well, Traveler, just don't use Nanette Barto!

Seriously, it is too bad Sherwood Morril has passed.

Has Napa Sheriff's Office given up now that funds are exhausted?
Perhaps they could request the FBI take a look at the handwriting.
Like NCIS, the FBI has excellent document examiners.

I know Manelli is out of the Napa jurisdiction, but more than one killing is involved, and these samples deserve a good scrutiny.

The zodiac case is NOT dead in Napa. Not sure what can be researched or how fast, but the case still is alive!

traveller1st wrote:

Nope lol and actually Bents I think we only have two at most. One's enough for me though.

And Morf's right, this guy uses both and the same on the y's - he uses looped and zodiac y's. It's not different people it's one person in 5 minds.

OK, thanks for checking. In light of all the phrase and spelling matches that have been found I'd agree, not a deal killer, however it seems strange that he would change the basic structure of his usual K (making it 3 stroke) for the Z letters and meanwhile leave every other character a virtual match. So where do we (you guys actually, I'm an observer on this one) go from here to move this forward?

bentley wrote:

traveller1st wrote:

Nope lol and actually Bents I think we only have two at most. One's enough for me though.

And Morf's right, this guy uses both and the same on the y's - he uses looped and zodiac y's. It's not different people it's one person in 5 minds.

OK, thanks for checking. In light of all the phrase and spelling matches that have been found I'd agree, not a deal killer, however it seems strange that he would change the basic structure of his usual K (making it 3 stroke) for the Z letters and meanwhile leave every other character a virtual match. So where do we (you guys actually, I'm an observer on this one) go from here to move this forward?

Personally, I think its not even the letter similarities, but rather the 'habits' that are common between Manalli & Zodiac. They incorrectly break the same words at the same part of the words, or leave odd spacing in the middle of words such as, SOME THING, CAUG HT.

Both are very fond of the word, SHALL, a word which was NOT commonly used around 1969, not in America.

Both have shown the same habit of writing 'half w's', in which they do not complete the right side of the w, and it looks unfinished

Zodiac wrote 'Hang by their thumbs', and manalli wrote a story in which a character says 'Hang by your thumbs'

At the time Zodiac wrote 'slaves in Paradise', Manalli had a short story being published called 'Paradise, its a nice place'

Zodiac used all the same misspellings as found in Finnegans wake. Manallimentions the same exact writing.

It goes on and on. One or two things you could pass off as coincidence, but this many things is hard to explain. Both Manalli & Zodiac were looking for attention from their writing.

I guess writing comparisons sent to the FBI or to a questioned document examiner would be the best bet, but we are working with 3rd or 4th generation letters & writing, so I dont know if that is ideal. Besides that, prints or DNA are the only things that would make a positive ID. Napa IS aware of manalli. They ARE aware of Santa Rosa Pd's interest in him as a killer. Where it goes, not sure. More food for thought, their timelines fit well together too.
Zodiac's last confirmed letter was 1974. At this time, Manalli moved back to Illinois, and lived there until 75 or 76. He then came back to CA, and was killed in his car accident. Certainly could explain the end of the Z letters.

Trav, I've always thought Manalli favored the Zodiac composite big time.

Your letter comparisons are mind-boggling. If he can't be excluded then you know what that leaves!

Another thing important in my eyes is Manalli was an English teacher at college level. He easily could have been so familiar with the Tit Willow thing, the Mikado, the literature such as Finegan's Wake and, well, I could go on and on but I'm getting sleepy.

Great work, Trav. Truly excellent.

I wish AK Wilks would comment because he produced some persuasive arguments for Ted K. Maybe he could be the Devil's Advocate for Manalli <hint, hint>

trainmaster wrote:

Well, Traveler, just don't use Nanette Barto!

Seriously, it is too bad Sherwood Morril has passed.

I won't lol and it is too bad about Sherwood but if nothing else, working on this guy's handwriting has shown me what he was seeing in these letters and I have to say He was awesome at what he did. He could see through the disguised writing and everything, linking things that people have since argued over. I can't say if Sherwood 100% correct but I certainly can't say he wasn't and it's humbling just to get a glimpse of what he could see. I can't even begin to imagine what he would have thought of Manalli's writing but I think I can lol.

If Manalli didn't write the Zodiac letters it sure is an intriguing benchmark as to the possible type of handwriting that does fit the bill, bearing in mind possible disguising of sed writing.

I think it's about time that one of the greatest and most iconic design items of the 20th Century was once again invoked into a t-shirt.

patinky wrote:

Trav, I've always thought Manalli favored the Zodiac composite big time.

Your letter comparisons are mind-boggling. If he can't be excluded then you know what that leaves!

Another thing important in my eyes is Manalli was an English teacher at college level. He easily could have been so familiar with the Tit Willow thing, the Mikado, the literature such as Finegan's Wake and, well, I could go on and on but I'm getting sleepy.

Great work, Trav. Truly excellent.

I wish AK Wilks would comment because he produced some persuasive arguments for Ted K. Maybe he could be the Devil's Advocate for Manalli <hint, hint>

You are too kind Sir, Thank you.

Well if we can get this thing out of the way one of the next things to look at is TK's writing. It too has caught my attention and warrants a further look but as many have correctly said, we are working off jpeg copies and it's a good guide but ultimately not as definitive or accurate as actual on the page analysis of handwriting and that's a whole other level of scrutiny. We are all learning through this I think, which is cool.

FWIW, the copies of Manalli's handwriting that I have are 1st generation. What I sent Morf are copies of mine and I had them done at a copy place with good equipment. So I guess what he has are 2nd generation. The originals can be viewed if it gets to that point.

Thank you Deb,

That may have answered an un-asked question of mine. I wondered about the follow through on his words and if what I was looking at was degraded cursive in some instances but if that isn't the case then this is most definitely interesting. Actually even if it was degraded cursive it still works.

I still keep in mind that this is your POI or one of them for SRHM and we can't overlook that either as far as this guy is concerned. It may yet fit a part of a puzzle that might be my crazy theory. Actually, 'Crazy' Theory is a good name for it lol.

Seagull wrote:

FWIW, the copies of Manalli's handwriting that I have are 1st generation. What I sent Morf are copies of mine and I had them done at a copy place with good equipment. So I guess what he has are 2nd generation. The originals can be viewed if it gets to that point.

Thanks for that info Seagull. Even at second generation Trav's work is compelling. The spacing of letters and words is soooo close to Zodiac spacing. Pretty incredible stuff.

And Trav ... I hate to tell you ... but I'm a female.