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Boilermaker
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:04 pm

Interesting Kevin - nice job on all of your research + sharing on here
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:25 pm

Boilermaker wrote:
Interesting Kevin - nice job on all of your research + sharing on here

Thank you Boiler maker for the kind words. I have been working hard. I know I don't dot all the I's but I know what I'm doing and what to look for....
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Boilermaker
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:37 am

carry on and believe in your poi and what you are after...I am amazed at all of the talented researchers on here...the patience and drive that you all display in getting this solved is great...I cant tell you how many times i have read about a poi and thought, this has got to be Z

It brings me to what I always typed to Zam in the past...how many weirdos are out there on the West Coast????? Smile

On a side note, has anyone watched all the great college games today and great endings? such a great sport to watch...

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tahoe27
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:05 am

Boilermaker wrote:
It brings me to what I always typed to Zam in the past...how many weirdos are out there on the West Coast????? Smile

Laughing They all end up here, but come from everywhere else. Laughing
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bentley
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Sun Oct 30, 2011 6:32 am


Boilermaker wrote:

On a side note, has anyone watched all the great college games today and great endings? such a great sport to watch...


Just Stanford/USC, those weirdos
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:06 am

Seagull wrote:
Kevin the wheel track of the car suspected to be Zodiac's at LB was 57" as can be arrived at by reading the official reports and doing the math, I do not need to call Napa to be able to read and understand a police report. Please don't insult my intelligence.

The car suspected to be Zodiac's did not have stock tires! This is evidenced by the fact that there were two different widths of tires on the car. The 52" inside wheel measurement was taken along with the width of each tire, one was 5 1/2" the other 4 1/2", by the officers on scene in order to calculate the wheel track width.

The fact that you went to a car show and measured inside tire widths is totally irrelevant and only clouds the issue of the wheel track width. You have stated that Bujok's vehicles had that 52" inside wheel track measurement to further your case against him but that 52" measurement is only part of the equation when comes to calculating the actual wheel track of the vehicle suspected to be Zodiac's.

You are wrong! The rims were stock and the tires were not original. They were mismatched on the front and well-worn all around. Besides that what does inside to inside mean to you....They measured inside to inside thread because that is the only way to be consistent! I'm so glad i'm out of here...
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AK Wilks
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:40 am

What is going on? Why are you out of here? You are a well liked and valued member and there is a lot of interest in your POI. If you have a problem talk to morf zam me or another mod.
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Zamantha
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:50 am

AK Wilks wrote:
What is going on? Why are you out of here? You are a well liked and valued member and there is a lot of interest in your POI. If you have a problem talk to morf zam me or another mod.

Hey Kevin B,
I totally get it. It's stressful being asked questions and scrutinized over & over. Maybe take a deep breathe and a mini break if needed. I know we all need to do that from time to time. Emotions go wild when it comes to the Z. I can't explain it...but I guess we all want to be right. Anyways, all I can say is hang in there, hang in here...as most of us are totally into Bujok. He's one of the most interesting POI's that have come along for awhile.

Zincerely, your pal Zam*
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Jem
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:08 am

Zam wrote:

Anyways, all I can say is hang in there, hang in here...as most of us are totally into Bujok. He's one of the most interesting POI's that have come along for awhile.

Definitely one of the most interesting POIs lately! If not THE most interesting.

Please post, Kevin! Something, anything, whatever you can share about Bujok. I, like probably most members of this site, look forward every day to reading what you have to say. And always feel disappointed if I don't see anything!

( bounce --> That's me hoping you'll give us more info on this guy. And soon!)

Smile
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:42 am

Jem wrote:
Zam wrote:

Anyways, all I can say is hang in there, hang in here...as most of us are totally into Bujok. He's one of the most interesting POI's that have come along for awhile.

Definitely one of the most interesting POIs lately! If not THE most interesting.

Please post, Kevin! Something, anything, whatever you can share about Bujok. I, like probably most members of this site, look forward every day to reading what you have to say. And always feel disappointed if I don't see anything!

( bounce --> That's me hoping you'll give us more info on this guy. And soon!)

Smile
I disagree. Kevin has made it clear he does not want to be questioned, yet he also claims he makes many mistakes due to "typos".
I honestly do not see what he has added other than assumptions and theories.
I look forward to Bujok being looked at further, the whole deer lodge stuff is very interesting.
But I look forward to Bujok being researched by people who want to share and do
not have other motives.
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AK Wilks
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:02 am

Kevin has ended his membership. Lets give him some time to coll down and reconsider but I doubt he will. His choice. For now lets not discuss Kevin he is not a member at this time. We can discuss the pros and cons of Bujok as a Z suspect but lets leave Kevin out of the discussion per his wishes.
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AK Wilks
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:39 am

Per board rules there will be NO negative attacks on Kevin no personal attacks on Tom V and no discussion of what happened at other boards here. Period. Anyone who violates the rules will have the post removed and if it happens again will be banned. Lets all move on. This thread is about Bujok.
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AK Wilks
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:58 am

Caresut is banned for two days he was warned but went ahead and made several more posts that were OFF TOPIC personal fight starters and bringing in outside board wars here.
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Qz1
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:22 am

AK Wilks wrote:
Per board rules there will be NO negative attacks on Kevin no personal attacks on Tom V and no discussion of what happened at other boards here. Period. Anyone who violates the rules will have the post removed and if it happens again will be banned. Lets all move on. This thread is about Bujok.

I like this. Good job. Good policy.
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:53 am

AK Wilks wrote:
Caresut is banned for two days he was warned but went ahead and made several more posts that were OFF TOPIC personal fight starters and bringing in outside board wars here.

The last post Caresut made that I saw was this:
"I disagree. Kevin has made it clear he does not want to be questioned, yet he also claims he makes many mistakes due to "typos".
I honestly do not see what he has added other than assumptions and theories.
I look forward to Bujok being looked at further, the whole deer lodge stuff is very interesting.
But I look forward to Bujok being researched by people who want to share and do
"

Did I miss something? I didnt see any kind of personal attack against Kevin, or anybody else by this post, merely an opinion. Was there something else posted by Caresut that was troublesome?


I love waking up to this stuff....(that's sarcasm) Mad
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AK Wilks
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:07 am

Yes caresut made an off topic post attacking Kevin and bringing in Tom V and zk board issues. I then made the post you see above asking for no attacks no personal issues no Tom V issues and no board wars. Caresut ignored this and made two more posts attacking kevin accusing me and this board of bias against Tom bringing in zk issues and trying to stir afight. I banned him for two days. Kevin aske to end his membership and starting deleting his posts which also ruins weeks of work by others. Your call on what to do me seagull and zam tried to cover as best we could. I asked Kevin to tay as did others but he wanted to leave.
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tracers
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:33 am

Discussion of Bujok as a poi did not begin with Kevin and it doesn't have to end with Kevin's departure. Morf and others found some good info and I am sure there is more info out there. Also, if the Deer Lodge Prison Museum sent various documents to Kevin, these documents are obviously not confidential and would be sent to anyone else who asked for them. So people who wan to know more about Bujok may want to write the Museum and ask for copies of that info on Bujok. Keep digging Bujok enthusiasts! i bet you'll find more information.
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tahoe27
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:25 pm

AK Wilks wrote:
Yes caresut made an off topic post attacking Kevin and bringing in Tom V and zk board issues. I then made the post you see above asking for no attacks no personal issues no Tom V issues and no board wars. Caresut ignored this and made two more posts attacking kevin accusing me and this board of bias against Tom bringing in zk issues and trying to stir afight. I banned him for two days. Kevin aske to end his membership and starting deleting his posts which also ruins weeks of work by others. Your call on what to do me seagull and zam tried to cover as best we could. I asked Kevin to tay as did others but he wanted to leave.

If those are the rules...Kevin should have been banned a long time ago. It must run both ways. I think Caresut's comments were fair and just.

I also agree with Tracers last posts. Bujok was a topic before Kevin even started posting about him. Other fine researchers have offered some good Bujok info. Let's continue....
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AK Wilks
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:10 pm

I doubt you read caresuts comments, because they were only on the board for seconds. I posted a warning to him that there would be no more attacks, no more personal issues, no more mention of Tom V and no bringing in issues from other boards. I warned that offending posts would be deleted and the poster banned. He went ahead and made several posts that did everything I had just said were violations of board rules. I banned him for two days.

Morf has indicated he will reinstate him before the two days are up and I said thats fine.

We had a bit of an emergency situation late last night, Kevin B was banned for violating board rules (and his own request) and caresut decided to addd gas to the fire after two warnings not to do that.

Here is a suggestion - LETS MOVE ON.

This thread is for discussion of BUJOK, and only BUJOK.

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tracers
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:59 pm

Can someone clarify the discussion about the tire tracks? I See Bentley and Seagull saying one thing and Kevin saying another. Since I know ZIP about cars and tires, etc. I am not sure what is correct.
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Zamantha
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:19 pm

tracers wrote:
Can someone clarify the discussion about the tire tracks? I See Bentley and Seagull saying one thing and Kevin saying another. Since I know ZIP about cars and tires, etc. I am not sure what is correct.

Thanks Tracers for posting this question. I am also confused on this tire track thing...but find it very interesting.
Like the old tires versa new tires...or tires worn in different spots, different size tires or even air pressure. Or different tires on different rims. And yes were do you measure for the correct distance. And how do we know for sure?
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Seagull
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:54 pm

Bentley posted a good illustration of the wheel track measurements here-

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t873p300-more-on-don-bujok

This is the post
Quote :
For those of you non-automotive types desperately trying to follow along, or just there picking your nose, here is a simple diagram noting the difference between tire track as used by the auto industry and the measurement taken at LB. Basically, if you take the LB measurement of 52" and add half of each tire width, which I believe are different on the suspected Zmobile but are quoted, you will arrive at the published auto figures, should you be checking on your POImobile.

One thing to keep in mind if measuring cars on the road: Many old collector cars have been modified with fancier, wider or different offset wheels and tires, which will dramatically change the track measurement. Probably best to stick to the published figures unless you know for sure the car you are checking. It is possible, since Zs tires didn't match (iirc), that he had a different wheel as well. I would generally give about an inch leeway either way when considering a vehicle for LB


Basically what Bentley is saying is that the wheel track measurement that was taken at LB by LE was different than how the automoble industry arrives at the figures they publish for the wheel track width. You can not use a published measurement for a particular vehicle to compare to the wheel track measurement at LB without doing a little more math to compensate for the difference in the way the measurement was taken.

From here on out I will defer all wheel track questions to Bentley!

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bentley
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:59 pm

This might better explain the LB tire marks. As measured by LE, the passenger side front tire, by the fence, measured 4.5" wide. The drivers side tire measured an inch wider, 5.5". Not normal practice, either one was the spare or he was just broke and using whatever tires he came across. The distance between the inside of one tire to the inside of the other was 52".

The auto industry measures track from the center of tire to the center of tire on other side. So in the case of LB, the track of the vehicle is a simple calculation of the center of the 4.5" tire, which is 2.25", plus the 52" measurement taken between the inside edges of the tires, plus the center of the 5.5" tire ,which is 2.75". Track of LB vehicle is 57".



The difference in tire widths alone will not change a track measurement. For example, if you add a tire that is one inch wider, you will add 1/2" to the tire part of the measurement (center of tire to inside), but you subtract 1/2" from the measurement between the tires since the wider tire will go in further towards the center of the car 1/2". The net result of the track measurement stays the same. I know, it's a bit confusing, but it is exactly the case in the example above.

What will alter the track measurement of a vehicle is the rim itself that the given tire is mounted on. Different rims have different offsets. The offset is how far the wheel assembly itself makes the tire intrude or protrude out of the vehicle fender. You have all see hopped up cars and trucks with deep dish rims and tires sticking out of the fenders. These rims can have up to 4" of offset, which would directly change the track measurement by a whopping 4 inches, per side. In the case of Z's alleged car, if one of the front rims (or both) was off of a different car, the original track measurement for that vehicle might not be 57 inches as measured. However, with the narrow tires used, it's likely that any rim offset would not me more than one inch or so. That, combined with the LE quote of "approximately 52" on the inside to inside measurements causes me to believe that a wheel track, as quoted by the auto industry, of between 56-58 inches would be within reason for the car in question.

I got the impression Kevin understood all this, there may have been some confusion in the way he expressed it. I believe the one car he mentioned fits the track measurement, a 1957 Chevy pickup I recall checking on and was too wide, at least on the specification I came across.

Edit: The word 'track' is a little misleading as it has two meanings in this case. The imprints the tires make into the ground as it rolls are often referred to as 'tracks', and the measurement of the vehicles footprint, as explained above, is also called the 'track". Though one relates to the other for calculations, they again have separate meanings. Thinking of rolling tracks as 'imprints' and the measurement as track is probably the best way to distinguish between them.

Also, the rim is the what the tire is mounted on, the wheel is the assembly of tire and rim.


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tracers
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:11 am

Thanks, Bentley! I understand things a lot better now.
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bentley
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:10 pm

My pleasure Tracers.

Geez, I hope the Bujok doesn't stop here. Wonder if we could find out who his cellmates were?
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