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| Troy Houghton: The Minuteman | |
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rand Chief
Posts : 1071 Join date : 2010-04-03
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:53 am | |
| "The California “Minutemen” was the brainchild of Troy Houghton of San Diego, CA. Houghton, while favoring the militant slant to anti-Communism, was bent to Halloween type pranks against the better known socialists and leftists of his area. One such rank was the mailing of a small tape recorder complete with a tape to a elected victim, usually some left wing character. Naturally, if you were to anonymously receive such an item you would be apt to play the tape. The voice on this tape said: “...this recorder contains ahigh explosive bomb set to go off in exactly ten seconds — nine — eight — seven — six — ....” One can only imagine the gymnastics performed by the mark in trying to dispose of the “bomb” before zero! Houghton's ability to escalate a touchy situation rather than defuse it, a fascination for machine guns and his apparent leaning toward other questionable areas would later become his undoing."From: http://www.scatteredremnant.org/MMCh4.pdf | |
| | | bruce3 Chief
Posts : 463 Join date : 2010-03-29
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:08 pm | |
| TH would need to be among the living if he sent that Halloween card! | |
| | | rand Chief
Posts : 1071 Join date : 2010-04-03
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:09 pm | |
| of course. And what makes you believe he wasn't alive? | |
| | | bruce3 Chief
Posts : 463 Join date : 2010-03-29
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:11 pm | |
| You need to show us he was alive -it's your suspect and in order for him to be Zodiac he needs to be alive and well! | |
| | | morf13 Admin
Posts : 6416 Join date : 2010-03-04 Age : 53 Location : NJ
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:26 pm | |
| - bruce3 wrote:
- You need to show us he was alive -it's your suspect and in order for him to be Zodiac he needs to be alive and well!
RAND, thats the biggest hurdle with your suspect. You cant prove he was alive, let alone in Vallejo for the Z murders. You have some interesting stuff, but its hard to accept without a viable suspect. The police would likely NEVER look into Haughton as a z suspect for tehse reasons. | |
| | | rand Chief
Posts : 1071 Join date : 2010-04-03
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:34 pm | |
| Why do I need to show he was alive when there's no reason to think he was dead? There is no death certificate for TH. If you believe he was dead, how did he die? Before disappearing, TH said he was going underground as a leader of a hit squad. MM urge members to go underground and give up their family for the cause: When TH was arrested for indecent exposure in early 1967, the police officer reported that he had never come across anyone with more aliases than Houghton. So how in the world could I figure out which alias he chose? Who knows who he became? All I am 100% certain of is that TH was the Zodiac. Not a shred of doubt in my mind. | |
| | | rand Chief
Posts : 1071 Join date : 2010-04-03
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:36 pm | |
| - morf13 wrote:
- bruce3 wrote:
- You need to show us he was alive -it's your suspect and in order for him to be Zodiac he needs to be alive and well!
RAND, thats the biggest hurdle with your suspect. You cant prove he was alive, let alone in Vallejo for the Z murders. You have some interesting stuff, but its hard to accept without a viable suspect. The police would likely NEVER look into Haughton as a z suspect for tehse reasons. And that's why Z said he was crackproof. TH was the Zodiac. I know this to be true; others will find out someday if only LE would pursue it. I don't have the time, money, or authority to do so. But there is no doubt in my mind that TH was Z. I would bet my life on it. | |
| | | morf13 Admin
Posts : 6416 Join date : 2010-03-04 Age : 53 Location : NJ
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:41 pm | |
| - rand wrote:
- morf13 wrote:
- bruce3 wrote:
- You need to show us he was alive -it's your suspect and in order for him to be Zodiac he needs to be alive and well!
RAND, thats the biggest hurdle with your suspect. You cant prove he was alive, let alone in Vallejo for the Z murders. You have some interesting stuff, but its hard to accept without a viable suspect. The police would likely NEVER look into Haughton as a z suspect for tehse reasons. And that's why Z said he was crackproof. TH was the Zodiac. I know this to be true; others will find out someday if only LE would pursue it. I don't have the time, money, or authority to do so. But there is no doubt in my mind that TH was Z. I would bet my life on it.
That is a BOLD statement. | |
| | | rand Chief
Posts : 1071 Join date : 2010-04-03
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Tue Apr 19, 2011 2:46 pm | |
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| | | rand Chief
Posts : 1071 Join date : 2010-04-03
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:05 pm | |
| VERY IMPORTANT STORIES FROM 1968
Who's Hiding In Mountains? The Billings Gazette, July 26, 1968
DEER LODGE (AP) - Who Is the armed man believed to be hiding in mountains between Deer Lodge and Butte? Montana Prison Warden E,C. Ellsworth said Thursday the man who was being sought after allegedly clubbing a Butte woman and taking her car "definitely isn't one of our ex-inmates." Ellsworth made the statement following the arrest in Salt Lake City of two prison escapees. One of them had been believed to be the man who vanished into the mountains after abandoning the Butte woman, Mrs, Alma Robuck, and her car in the mountains. The man allegedly held the woman hostage for several hours. Although one of the 12 inmates who escaped from the prison July 15 is still at large' Ellsworth discounted the possibility that the escapee is the man being sought in the mountains. Ellsworth said the inmate still missing, Harold Bates, 26, of Billings, is believed to be on the West Coast. Ellsworth said papers identifying Bates were found in a car stolen in Idaho. The warden said prison officials have abandoned their search in the mountains between Butte and Deer Lodge for the mystery man who is thought to be armed with three high-powered rifles and ammunition. However, Ellsworth said the prison will cooperate in the search if requested by law enforcement agencies, Ellsworth estimated prison personnel have spent more than 300 man-days on search operations since the 12 escaped. He said the prison had about 20 men working on the search about eight hours a day each on their own time. He said the men receive no compensation for extra time spent searching.
This story is correct in that there was a MM in the mountains of Montana. But it wasn't DePugh or Peyson (who we now know went directly to New Mexico when they fled). It was, IMO, TH.
]Two Leaders of the Minutemen May Be Hiding Out in Montana From The Independent Record, Sunday, November 17, 1968, page 5
The Federal Bureau of Investigation believes two leaders of the Minutemen, a secret, militant right-wing extremist group, may be hiding out in a Montana wilderness of backcountry area They are Robert Bolivar De- Pugh, the acknowledged leader of the Minutemen, and Walter Patrick Peyson, who is believed to be a high-ranking member of the organization. The fugituves are sought by the FBI on a charge of conspiracy to commit bank robbery. Word that the FBI suspects DePugh and Peyson may be in Montana came in the monthly publication o£ the Montana Aeronautics Commission, "Montana and the Sky." The publication said the FBI has asked Montana pilots and their passengers to be on the lookout for the men. It printed their pictures and descriptions. "Both men have been reported as 'having traveled in both Montana and Idaho," the FBI said. "They may seek air transportation, particularly to remote areas." It warned that the fugitives "are considered armed anc dangerous." The report said a 17-year-old girl named Janet Stephanie Taylor may be with DePugh and Peyson. She is described as being 6 feet 1 inch tall. DePugh, the report said, does not smoke and is not known;o drink alcoholic beverages. Mien extremely nervous he coughs considerably. He usually wears business suits or conservative sports clothes and ordinarily stays in well known motels when traveling. He is an expert firearms shot. "DePugh is reported constanty guarded by other Minutemen and in the past has been armed with pistols, rifles and land grenades," the MAC publication reported. "It has been said that he keeps his associates 'emotionally charged' and that they will assist him in resisting arrest." It said Peyson reportedly carries a handgun and has access ;o other types of weapons including hand grenades. DePugh is 45, 5 feet 10 or 11, weighs 175-190 pounds, has a medium build, brown hair, brown eyes, medium complexlip. Peyson, 26, is described as 5 feet 7, 120-130 pounds, slender build, black curly hair, browi eyes, medium complexion anc and a scar on his left temple | |
| | | bruce3 Chief
Posts : 463 Join date : 2010-03-29
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:12 pm | |
| So TH went way-way underground in the North Bay ,even from family,etc.,so he could go to lover's lanes (or by lake side to stab them to death) and kill teens? Or kidnap a pregnant female with an infant and drive them around on farm roads for two hours in CC? Or shoot a taxi driver in SF? I did not know this was a Minuteman deal or that they were doing things like that.
There are thousands of victims of murders that have never been found.The police know most met with foul play ,but they don't have DC's,etc.
It is your repsonsibilty to prove he is still alive or was alive then prove where and when he died and, if so, by whom. | |
| | | rand Chief
Posts : 1071 Join date : 2010-04-03
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:35 pm | |
| there is not a shred of evidence that he was murdered. If you have some, please provide it. It's not my burden of proof to prove someone was alive in 1968-1974 when there's no reason to believe that he was dead. I say he went underground. I've explained so many times already that he went underground as a MM hitman but TH was first and foremost a killer. TH was a serial killer, but he was also a member of the MM. Killing was his business. He talked about it all the time. Why would he go underground and stay there? Because he owed thousands and thousands of dollars in lawsuits. DePugh and Peyson went underground less than a year later. They were caught; TH was not. But if you don't want to know the Zodiac's identity, that's fine with me. If you want to believe that Bruce Davis was Z, go right ahead. All I can do is lead a horse to water. You obviously haven't read or don't understand what I've shown on this thread that links TH to Z. There's always time to read it carefully and see for yourself. Now, if you want to believe that TH was murdered, even though I know the story backwards and forwards and could show all the loopholes and explain why it was all a lie, that's fine. It's a free country and you're entitled to believe whatever you choose. Why do you suppose that Bettie told me that she didn't remember TH's car being found at the side of a road, when Bettie went to all the newspapers with that information in 1968? Why did she say she didn't remember what kind of car it was that TH was driving or how they knew it was his car? Then, after I pushed her on this, she said: "Oh, yes, there was a car found on the side of the road, but I don't remember anything else about it." I asked her where it was found and why she didn't reveal that information to the newspaper but chose to deliberately withhold it: "I think it was Nebraska." Hmmmm. How could you forget information like that about your husband if you thought he was murdered? That would be like me saying: "JFK was shot? Was it in Dallas? Texas School Book Depository? Dealy Plaza? Oh, yes, I remember now" And if she believed that DePugh murdered her husband, why didn't she try to have him arrested? He was already in jail on a federal arms charge. Why instead did she start her own California "Target" MM newsletter? Is that something someone would do if they believed that the leader of the organization had murdered her husband? And why did she continue to lead the MM chapter in TH's absence? Look at the date of TH's questioning re the tire shooting incident (Dec. 21): http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=JA9KAAAAIBAJ&sjid=dh4NAAAAIBAJ&pg=741,2994625&dq=haughton+minutemen&hl=en | |
| | | rand Chief
Posts : 1071 Join date : 2010-04-03
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:51 pm | |
| - bruce3 wrote:
- So TH went way-way underground in the North Bay ,even from family,etc.,so he could go to lover's lanes (or by lake side to stab them to death) and kill teens? Or kidnap a pregnant female with an infant and drive them around on farm roads for two hours in CC? Or shoot a taxi driver in SF?
I did not know this was a Minuteman deal or that they were doing things like that. Interesting that you say this. Your POI, BD, worked for Manson's family and your theory is that these killings somehow served his ends of starting a race revolution? How does that make sense? Why don't these comments of yours apply to BD? Oh, I'm sure you've got plenty of reasons why they served Manson's plans but then one would have to buy into lots of strange theories to get there. But for some reason, you believe that TH had to be murdering to serve some political ends that surely these murders -- going to "lover's lanes (or by lake side to stab them to death) and kill teens? Or kidnap a pregnant female with an infant and drive them around on farm roads for two hours in CC? Or shoot a taxi driver in SF?" -- don't serve. But they do serve Manson's political ends. I don't pretend that they serve political ends. But why should TH, of all serial killers, have to be serving political ends with his murders? Was he serving political ends by exposing himself to teenage girls? FYI, the MM as an organization was, for all intents and purposes, dead by 1969. It's heyday was 1962-1968. | |
| | | rand Chief
Posts : 1071 Join date : 2010-04-03
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:14 pm | |
| - bruce3 wrote:
- So TH went way-way underground in the North Bay ,even from family,etc.,so he could go to lover's lanes (or by lake side to stab them to death) and kill teens? Or kidnap a pregnant female with an infant and drive them around on farm roads for two hours in CC? Or shoot a taxi driver in SF?
I did not know this was a Minuteman deal or that they were doing things like that. Okay, let's look at the murders and see what connection they have: Dec 21, 1968- four years to the day that TH shot out the tires of a woman's car while she was in the car. Also the night before Troy Houghton, Jr's birthday
July 4, 1969 - Independence day (MM!)
Sept. 27, 1969 - TH was a KKK member since he was a kid. Lake Berryessa was a ritualistic murder with all the trappings of the KKK's symbolism: water, knife, hood, robe. Sept. 27, 1787: Constitution submitted to states for ratification. Sept. 27, 1779: John Adams negotiates Revolutionary War peace terms with Britain
Oct. 11, 1969 - Columbus Day weekend and, more important, check this out from a California Patriot MM newsletter:Then there's this unconfirmed letter about the state being in trouble:And then there's the capital letters TH in THe here: | |
| | | bruce3 Chief
Posts : 463 Join date : 2010-03-29
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:35 pm | |
| I am only being frank as you have been with my Z research,and suspect. Fine. No problem.
Abundance.The more information on a suspect that is availble and it's compared to Z in some way,shape or form you find 'Z connections.'Allen was a good 'public 'suspect in that he left letters,and a paper trail and others knew him,etc.;so you start making Z f'inds'and matches, and ID this or that when comparing to Z,whether it's handwriting or a job,etc.
A great deal in the way of docs and other public info is out there on the MM and TH so you have more data to mine and place those rocks against Z rocks to find your Z gold.Most is coincidence and the law of averages-more info more matches.But,it is circumstantial at best.No forensics or real proof.In this case you can't PROVE your guy was even on earth from 1967-74 or '78 for that matter.You assume he is alive as he has to be because TH is Zodiac and Z was alive then!!!
I have posted this many,many times in various ways and have said it since I started Z in 1987- no one knows who Z is unless they were a part of the case in some vital way.ALL of us 'suspect' this or that person.You can't say "TH is Zodiac "unless you do so in the context of law and solid accepted forensics.Part of that -in your case -is you must prove in a court of law and LE he was/s alive! You have to start ,as they say,from Square One. Have you accumulated a lot of information (because it's there!-including FBI/LE files,etc.)on TH and the MM? Yes,no one will deny it. Have you done a good job on that part?YES! Your real mission is to prove your man is or was alive to do those Z crimes and write those letters,otherwise it's sounding brass and tinkling cymbals.Then you must link to Z (or TH!) with forensics,etc. If you find TH was alive 67-78 I will as happy-very happy actually, as anyone that you overcame that portion of your research and then go from there.I want the case solved -it does not matter to me WHO does it or Zodiac was/is!!! It has been very tough for me since '87.It has not been fun and very expensive and very,very time consuming along with a lot of space junk types carping on you all the time.Who wants it?I would be thrilled the case came to a grand conclusion like BTK,for example.
I realize you are in an unusual position-since I am a researcher too I can feel for you there- in Z land as we or YOU don't know if TH was even alive.Kind of different than the other Z suspects, and that's all they are 'suspected' of being Zodiac. I don't envy your task at all,but you persevere and keep gathering more info.You have chosen this and you are proving you are sincere and have the will to keep at it so that's great.
If you would just join all of us that have ordinary suspects instead of saying you solved the case and TH is Zodiac then more people would be watchful and more interested in what you are doing.I think you are a good person and have compassion for others,etc.,and good at your profession,but it's how you display your case and what you claim.
As to CM/BD and MM/TH.There some similarities in that both sides hated the establishment for example,but as to many other factors ,how it was manifested,and motives,etc.,etc.,there are great differences which anyone that has read my book and/or read my posts over the years can see.
When I compare the Z crimes and letters with the MM/TH (and yes I have read your posts on MM/TH)-including ZK.comt)there is not the right fit in my view.You see it differently and that's what makes for research-different or varying views. | |
| | | rand Chief
Posts : 1071 Join date : 2010-04-03
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:42 pm | |
| - bruce3 wrote:
- If you would just join all of us that have ordinary suspects instead of saying you solved the case and TH is Zodiac then more people would be watchful and more interested in what you are doing.I think you are a good person and have compassion for others,etc.,and good at your profession,but it's how you display your case and what you claim.
There are 7653 views on this thread, by far the most of any suspect other than Gareth Penn. The same was true when I was posting about TH on Voigt's site. So I can't understand why you say, if I did things differently or acted differently, more people would be watchful and more interested in what I'm doing. I follow every suspect. I read everything posted on this site. Just because I would bet my life that TH was Z -- that I have no doubts about it -- doesn't mean that I don't follow what others are doing. I only say how I feel when I post something and you and others respond dismissively as you did earlier today. Rather than addressing my post and its content, you wrote: "TH would need to be among the living if he sent that Halloween card!" Leaving aside the the exclamation point (which strikes me as entirely unnecessary), you clearly imply that TH was dead and you know that to be true. Case closed, in your view. I'm just pushing a deadman as a POI; and everything I've uncovered about him that links him to Z is obviously just dumb luck on my part, right? But, as you know, I'm the one who has provided every fact regarding TH's disappearance. That includes the rumour of his death by DePugh. Every single fact about TH's disappearance was something I uncovered. So if we want to have a discussion about TH's supposed murder, fine, bring it on. But you simply dismiss TH as a suspect because you claim he's dead, as if you know something that I don't know. I've done a ton of research on the rumour of TH's death. Obviously, it matters more to me than anyone else at this point (even Bettie couldn't give a rat's ass, which is essentially what she told me). It's a complex story. True, I can't tell you where TH was or if he was alive. True, I don't know what alias he chose. Okay. But to dismiss him based on a rumour when the man said he was going underground and when MM literature urged members to leave their families forever and when Z himself wrote: "I've got a little list of society offenders who might well be underground who would never be missed who would never be missed." Let me be clear on one point for those who may be reading this: This is not about personality or anything personal. I like Howard Davis and respect him. We're just discussing the case. Yes, I know that my bravado often rubs people the wrong way. It only comes out when I feel that people who have been involved with the case for years, like yourself, dismiss TH out of hand and categorically for reasons which I understand better than you. It irks me that the major players in the Z case these days don't want to seriously consider TH as a suspect. Yet, they consider people like Gaik a serious POI (absurd, IMO). Moreover, no matter where I publish the information I've gathered about TH the views on Houghton threads well exceed those for all other POI. I think that an unbiased look at the facts I've uncovered clearly suggest TH is a terrific POI. If LE don't want to check him out, well...that's why the case hasn't been solved in over 40 years. I can't do their job for them. | |
| | | morf13 Admin
Posts : 6416 Join date : 2010-03-04 Age : 53 Location : NJ
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Tue Apr 19, 2011 11:06 pm | |
| Personally, and I am just speaking for myself, you make an interesting case against T.H.
That being said, to get people more interested (including the cops), you need more than 48 pages of every circumstantial tie in the world, to link Zodiac to TH & the Minutemen.
Every person, including myself, on this forum has a circumstantial case against their POI...since we dont have prints or DNA, its all circumstantial. But the difference is, everyone else with a POI knows for a fact that they were 100% alive. You cant say that about T.H., you have no solid evidence that he was alive, no matter how much you believe it. Thats almost like saying Bigfoot is real.....show some proof, then you will get people to listen.
Not too long ago, you posted about an old man that attacked his neighbor in San Diego for some odd reason, and with ZERO facts to support it, you insinuated that the old man may have been T.H.
I dont want to see your POI attacked for the sake of being attacked. Personally, I dont think Bruce Davis or Ted K was Z either. But I do slip into those threads to see what is going on, just like I slip into your T.H. thread.
You are so far up to 48 pages so far on T.H. & the minutemen, and for all I care, you can post another 48 pages.
Perhaps we look at things differently. I look at it like this- if I can gather enough real hard evidence, including prints, writing, DNA, etc, perhaps this stuff can one day be turned over to police to tie them to Zodiac. As slim as the chances are of that happening are, I think it is a possibilty. But you will never be able to present your "evidence" to police, because you have no prints, DNA, etc, that conclusively even shows T.H. was alive and able to be Zodiac.
I have my favorite suspect, who I know for a fact (not a feeling of mine), was at the scene of a Z murder. He had discrepancies in his story to police. He turned over guns for testing. And they didnt even bother to take this guy's prints to clear him. So in my mind, if the cops will not take a closer look at him, how can you ever convince them to look at your theory seriously?
Trust me, I have helped people look at several suspects & POI's in the past 4 years.... from people that Called themself ZODIAC, to people that had code training, etc. But in each of these cases, there is possible physical evidence that can be collected. With T.H., there is not. I suggested to you some time back, to obtain a document or object, that without question, was handled by T.H. Then you could get the prints off of that to give to police. Have you attempted to do that?
I would ask, for people to avoid posting about T.H. if it is just to argue the fact he is not a valid suspect. But RAND, again, for me personally, send me a PM when you prove T.H. was alive in 1969, or when you have gathered an original item with his prints on it.
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| | | rand Chief
Posts : 1071 Join date : 2010-04-03
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:37 am | |
| Thanks, I'll do that. This is all just a hobby for me, as it is with most of us. I wish I had the authority, time, and money to go and speak with Bettie, TH's sons, Mower, Molyneaux, Nedra, Tollerton, and DePugh's son etc. I just don't. I think I'll get heavier into the case in the summer, when I'm not teaching. Perhaps, I'll get the nerve to cold call them, as I did with Bettie and Husted. Just an aside: I didn't say the guy was TH; I said I was anxious to find out who it was. | |
| | | rand Chief
Posts : 1071 Join date : 2010-04-03
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:41 am | |
| - rand wrote:
- I know it's a real long shot, but I'm very curious to find out who this 74-year old man is:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_pets_dispute_stabbing Morf: This is precisely what I wrote. You said: "Not too long ago, you posted about an old man that attacked his neighbor in San Diego for some odd reason, and with ZERO facts to support it, you insinuated that the old man may have been T.H." I don't think anything I said in the post is off base. The guy was roughly the right age, lived in SD, and he stabbed a man because his dog was barking. So I was curious. Nothing wrong with being curious, is there? | |
| | | bruce3 Chief
Posts : 463 Join date : 2010-03-29
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:27 pm | |
| rand, I have not been dismissive-just saying that you need to prove TH was alive at the Z attacks and letters sent. That's all. I related this with and without !'s points. Z research is unregulated and suspects are not the only thing that excites controversy and debate.I could as well as you recount countless subjects to debate in the Z case all because he was not caught and brought to justice.We are left without a confession ,hence, like JTR theories abound.
British scholars discuss Jack with great alacrity leaving their proper British traits behind because the case is unsolved.Suspects abound with George Chapman being my fav.,but most discussions are a blend of speculation,and fact like with our unsolved case Zodiac.
We don't have enough crime scenes (thank God!) to form full opinions on his MO and all the rest that connects to it.We do have basics on this and other areas though.
We all have encountered attacks and misunderstanding relative to our suspect theories because we know-at least we should-more on that subject and they don't.This is common.BUT,this doesn't mean we are right or have Zodiac and they are wrong either.No,not at all.More knowledge does not grant actual truth or reality.
We are doing the best we can with limitations you mention.We all face that factor in doing research. I am not a control hound or my opinion is all that matters like some Z warpos. If I suddenly came into money I would fund different Z suspect projects so that person/s could go as far as they wish.This would include forensics,etc. I know what limitation is!
If we are suspect oriented we need to take what comes along with that. Take BD.It isn't about a beard it's about I dont think he is Zodiac.Cool.If he were clean shaven it would still draw a negative.That's as it should be.Two sides.
I have had private debates with others over the years-really for fun as this is a hobby of mine-I do take it seriously though (like with you having this Z deal as a hobby). One side, 'I don't think BD is Z or was involved,'but when I refute their claim they then say 'what about this or that?'Their core belief, for whatever reason, does not 'like' him or even other Z suspects for various reasons,which is good and their right, of course.It's excercising their free will which is great.
Even if we convinced all of the excellent posters we were right what would that mean?How would that solve the case?
I think we all hope by presenting material on our respective suspects someone out there may know something that could shed light on Z and /or our suspect.No harm no fowl there as to motive.Or they may offer something on an unsolved murder we are researching,etc.
So really it's not to get Zsearhers to 'believe' us or anyone we are right -it's to present what we have found as a point of interest the ol' FYI, and to lay it out there for someone that may offer good info or have proof that will refute one's evidence to save wasting time on this or that subject.
It's a slot machine.Some one of us in the Z community or outside the forums may pull the handle down one day and hit the Z Pot! I say good and we all go home,and rest.YES! Justice for the poor victims and their families!!!
Last edited by bruce3 on Thu Apr 21, 2011 3:22 pm; edited 2 times in total | |
| | | rand Chief
Posts : 1071 Join date : 2010-04-03
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:31 pm | |
| Yes, the whole thing is basically quicksand; but it's fascinating, so we keep at it. | |
| | | rand Chief
Posts : 1071 Join date : 2010-04-03
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Thu Apr 21, 2011 2:54 pm | |
| ZODIAC'S FASCINATION WITH TIME People have commented on the time issue for years. All the different ways, a watch, the zip code stamp, the centering of the word on the Citizen letter, etc.; but no one has come up with a good explanation for the issue. Basically it has been said that time was important to Zodiac, but why? How about: MINUTEMAN? BUTTONSZ had a fascination with buttons. TH wore them as well. IMPLATTThis is the word from the Little List letter. The line reads: "All children who are up in dates and implore you with implatt" The line from The Mikado is : "All children who are up in dates, and floor you with 'em flat-" The way it is written in the Little List letter it looks like im and platt are separate words. Two word definitions seem relevant. The first is a mining term, definition 2 in the link. 2. (Mining) The space at the mouth of a level next the shaft, widened to permit wagons to pass, or ore to be deposited for hoisting; -- called also platt. --Raymond. [1913 Webster] This suggests that Z had mining on his brain when he was riffing on the Mikado. You can tell alot about people when they free associate. TH was a miner by trade. He mined for years during the 1950s with his wife Bettie. The second is language based with platt being a German dialect. (I'm associating German with Nazi/white hate groups) platt - definition of platt by the Online Dictionary from Datasegment.com http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/word/platt plattdeutsch - definition of plattdeutsch by the Online Dictionary from Datasegment.com http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/word/plattdeutsch | |
| | | bruce3 Chief
Posts : 463 Join date : 2010-03-29
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:15 pm | |
| rand, Of course,we know Z misspelled words here in the Mikado 'Little List' and in many other places in his missives.So maybe there is something maybe not. Look how he spells puff it for example! It's all speculation as we both know and that's fine to be sure.
It almost looks like the Mikado piece was read to him and he wrote it as he heard it phonetically. He seems though to know it by heart as it not exact.He is paraphrasing to a certain extent. We don't know that of course,but it's just Z trying to make LE think he doesn't know how to spell or keep them guessing as to his spelling abilities,hence, his educational background. This misspelling on purpose instruction is found in common antidetection books.Misspell words you normally dont misspell so if they ask you to give a writing sample it won't jibe with your spelling,etc.
Now,those clues you see and that's sharp thinking or detailed observation,but they can fit in even with bad suspect BD. Implant welding and he was a welder. As far as mining goes CM/BD looked for gold in Death Valley.They made friends with several miners that lived there.This was from 1967-69/70.CM in one letter claims to know where some gold is hidden.
Now,I can see that dragon (CM draws dragons and was into them as symbolic) card as CM as an older miner on the dragon and BD on the lesser animal or donkey. One is 'higher'than the other, but both are together BD/CM.
CM mentions the donkeys he saw in DV.But,I don't know that for certain. Does it fit symbolically with my scenario?Yes,but is that why Z picked that card? Don't know for sure.No one does.
As far as the German element is concerned you mention;well, both men were into Neos/Nazis/AH/white supremists,etc.This is known.As a matter of fact Zs' sybmbol is used on neo Nazi flags,etc.It was used as a sybmol in Great Britain by Neos there. BD had traveled to GB three times. As FYI it was used in the popular TV series Dark Shadows 60's-70s and was called the "mark of the devil"It is used in the occult and both men were certainly into the occult big time.
It or that symbol or cross/circle is Celtic (used in astrology too) and that's what CM/BD were into.They hoped to bring these kinds of groups into their War.Even the LA Crips as black gang used this symbol in the 60's and still do!!!
So lots of Z type connections to suspects not just Troy as ya know. | |
| | | rand Chief
Posts : 1071 Join date : 2010-04-03
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:47 pm | |
| You didn't comment on Z's fascination with time or buttons, but that's okay. As for the Dragon card, here's my theory. Paul Revere began his famous ride from the Green Dragon Tavern, which still exists: Here's the sign: The dragon is also a symbol of the KKK. TH was a miner and owned the Trojan Mining and Blasting Company. BLAST is prominently written on the card as well. By the way, has anyone ever commented on what looks like the crosshair/zodiac symbol here: | |
| | | morf13 Admin
Posts : 6416 Join date : 2010-03-04 Age : 53 Location : NJ
| Subject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman Thu Apr 21, 2011 4:57 pm | |
| I am still wondering...with all of this great material you have colleceted, are there any samples at all of Troy H's printed writing for us to examine??? | |
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