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 The Shoe Salesman

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Nachtsider
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PostSubject: The Shoe Salesman   Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:18 pm

As related by Cecelia Shepherd's roommate on Tom's board...

RoomMate wrote:
Cecelia's home was in Loma Llinda, Site of the SDA Medical School, Loma Linda Univ. Right before she went up to start school at PUC, she went to a mall in the nearby town of San Bernardino to buy a pair of boots to wear in bad weather at PUC. She talked to the she salesman and was surprised that he was familiar with PUC and the Napa Valley area. She ended up going out with him to a performance of the Mikado -unknown to her parents who would not have allowed her to date a non-SDA.

Cecelia & I got together right before she transferred from La Sierra to PUC as she was getting ready to go see the Mikado with her "ShoeSalesman" date. This was before the fall semester of '67. She talked privately with me because she knew I was engaged to someone in the Air Force (which was a big no-no for SDAs) and that I was pretty fed up with what was going on with the officials of La Sierra College (another SDA school).

She told me that she had gone to the mall in San Bernadino to buy a pair of boots because PUC sometimes got dustings of snow and had a lot more rain. She asked the "shoe Salesman" as to whether or not the boots could be waterproofed as she was transferring to PUC College up north. The guy was familiar with the Napa Valley and they ended up chatting for awhile. She finally accepted in invitation to see the Mikado with him (we had both fallen in love with Gilbert & Sullivan music the year before).

She did not want her parents or the SDA community to know she went out with a Non-SDA - it wasn't worth the hassle when she didn't care about the guy - she just wanted to see the Mikado.

It was my impression that the guy was moonlighting selling shoes and was in the service-probably Air Force. Norton AFB was in operating in SB; George AFB in Victorville and March AFB in Riverside were close enough to commute.

The Mikado performance was somewhere in SoCal, not SF. I can't remember where.

Her date arrived as I was going out to my car. It was twilight and I didn't notice or remember anything about him or his car. Her family didn't know anything about the date.

After her junior year at PUC, we talked that summer by phone but didn't get together. She did mention over the phone that the "shoe salesman" had contacted her at PUC but she wasn't interested.

After the next school year('68-69) we got together again with a couple of friends from La Sierra. She said she was transferring to UC Riverside as a music major. After they left, she told me she was in love with Brian and thought they had a future together. For some reason, I have the impression that her transferring to UC Riverside was a cost savings idea from Brian. She expected him to be living in Socal the follow year.

She said she would be going up to get her stuff in storage at PUC in the next couple of weeks. Some days later, I woke up on a Monday morning before dawn thinking that something was terribly wrong. When the paper came, her murder was on the front page!

I was shocked at the posts about Brian saying Cecelia was just a friend and he had a girlfriend/fiance back in Oregon. From what Cecelia said, she and Brian were in love. Her statements were strong enough for me to ask if she expected a proposal at Christmas. My impression was that nothing official would happen until they could be self-supporting.

I moved to Napa in 1971. The San Francisco Chronicle ran an article about the murders and asked for the public's help. In the Chronicle's story, there was a supposition that the Zodiac had been in the military which accounted for a break in his killings (overseas perhaps?) and the wing walker shoe prints. I sent the full story plus a picture of Cecelia and myself together (to prove I wasn't a nut) to the San Francisco detectives. They never contacted me.

I met the Napa detective Ken N. at the 2003(?) Zodiac Killer get together in Vallejo. Ken told me he never received this information from SFPD even though he was in charge of Cecelia's murder investigation. If he had, he said he would have been on the next plane to San Bernadino.

Because the SFPD didn't contact me, I thought that the info I had was not pertinent to her murder...

Thoughts, guys? I think this stuff is fascinating; this salesman chap sounds like a genuinely solid suspect. Wonder if any of you folks would be able to further probe this angle.
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:39 pm

It is really interesting. However, wasn't Cecelia able to briefly see Zodiac without the hood at LB and provide a brief description to the park ranger? Wouldn't she have recognized the guy and told the ranger that?
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:22 pm

Not to mention hearing him speak quite a bit.

"Stanley, is that you?"

Interesting though...
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:42 pm

bentley wrote:
Not to mention hearing him speak quite a bit.

"Stanley, is that you?"

Interesting though...

Interestingly Bryan Hartnell thought that he kind of recoginzed the Zodiac killer's voice:

Here is a quote from the September 28, 1969 Bryan Hartnell interview (the day after the attack):

http://www.zodiackiller.com/HartnellInterview4.html

Quote:

Bryan Hartnell said:
" his voice... I can remember...almost like I´d heard it before. You know there's some drawls that a lot of people have similar. And... almost as if I'd heard it before...coundn´t think where"
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:08 pm

Drew wrote:
It is really interesting. However, wasn't Cecelia able to briefly see Zodiac without the hood at LB and provide a brief description to the park ranger? Wouldn't she have recognized the guy and told the ranger that?
She saw him at a distance. If he had altered his appearance, say, by wearing a new haircut, she might not have recognized him.

bentley wrote:
Not to mention hearing him speak quite a bit.

"Stanley, is that you?"

Interesting though...
As for this, the hood might have well distorted his voice beyond recognition.
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:38 pm

Nachtsider wrote:
Drew wrote:
It is really interesting. However, wasn't Cecelia able to briefly see Zodiac without the hood at LB and provide a brief description to the park ranger? Wouldn't she have recognized the guy and told the ranger that?
She saw him at a distance. If he had altered his appearance, say, by wearing a new haircut, she might not have recognized him.

bentley wrote:
Not to mention hearing him speak quite a bit.

"Stanley, is that you?"

Interesting though...
As for this, the hood might have well distorted his voice beyond recognition.

Plus, if she was in shock and the shoe salesman didnt make a big impression on her, she may not have even remembered him

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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:58 pm

If this is our boy, and Cecelia was a pre-meditated target, Z must have trailed them from the college in Angwin, complete with his weapons and paraphernalia, and for some time, as they did a bunch of running around with friends and rummage sales that day and the LB destination was a last minute destination per Hartnell.

Anyway, assuming he went unnoticed trailing Cecilia that day, were they at the lake 3 hours before the attack? The 3 girls saw their suspect around 3:30, if Hartnell wasn't yet at the lake, Z couldn't have been if he was following them.
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:19 am

bentley wrote:
If this is our boy, and Cecelia was a pre-meditated target, Z must have trailed them from the college in Angwin, complete with his weapons and paraphernalia, and for some time, as they did a bunch of running around with friends and rummage sales that day and the LB destination was a last minute destination per Hartnell.

Anyway, assuming he went unnoticed trailing Cecilia that day, were they at the lake 3 hours before the attack? The 3 girls saw their suspect around 3:30, if Hartnell wasn't yet at the lake, Z couldn't have been if he was following them.

Thats true!

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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:59 pm

This would have been a person completely infatuated with Cecelia. Surely she would have talked to others about this guy. I wonder if any other friends have any recollection of this man?

Good luck with finding some random shoesalesman from 1969 though. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:16 pm

Saw in the yellow book RG says they got to the lake at 4pm, dunno where he got that but it might leave enough wiggle room for Z to have followed them out and been the guy the 3 girls saw at 3:30. However I don't know why Z would be messing around with the 3 girls, and losing his tail on Cecilia, if she was the intended target. It's no deal breaker if the guy the girls saw wasn't Z anyway.

Also noted in the YB, Narlow as well said they could not have been intended targets because of the spontaneity of the LB trip. I believe Celia had just come up for the weekend to get some things, so Z would have to have known about the trip, sewn up his costume, gotten himself all ready in a hurry in addition to finding her on that fateful day. An inside informer?

Another issue is the other crimes. Were LHR and BRS also intended victims? What about Stine? Considering Z's ulterior motive, fame, freaking out the public and needling the cops, it seems a bit doubtful.

But anything is possible. Did Z wear the costume so he wouldn't be recognized by Cecelia? Why not just come out and say "It's me, now you die"?

If we could get a name on this guy it'd certainly be worth checking him out. As I recall last time we talked about him someone said the shoe store, and even the shopping mall were gone.

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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:52 pm

Does anybody know the shoe salesman's name? I know Cecelia's friend knew of him,but did she actually know his name?

If we could get our hands on a 1969 San Bernardino directory, we could look up shoe stores and at least find the name of the place

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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:24 pm

Nope, no name. That would be too easy! Wink

Although I hear he was stocky, walked with a lumbering gimp and spoke in a monotone voice. (not really--being sarcastic today)

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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:42 am

I do admit the timing issue poses a problem, but these issues...

bentley wrote:
Another issue is the other crimes. Were LHR and BRS also intended victims? What about Stine? Considering Z's ulterior motive, fame, freaking out the public and needling the cops, it seems a bit doubtful.

But anything is possible. Did Z wear the costume so he wouldn't be recognized by Cecelia? Why not just come out and say "It's me, now you die"?

... aren't really too much of issues.

Perhaps Betty, David, Mike and Darlene were surrogates for Zodiac; if Cecelia rebuffed him, he might have taken his rage out on them first, his intended target being beyond his reach at the time. If he were also a nobody with fantasies of being someone infamous, and someone with a bone to pick with the cops, he might have struck on the idea of concurrently using his crimes to terrify the Bay Area and make LE look bad. As for Paul, the Chron articles accusing Zodiac of being a latent homosexual might have had something to do with that.

As for the costume, it may not just have been a matter of not allowing her to recognize him. Perhaps he just could not bring himself to face her without some sort of 'security blanket' hiding himself, or was just too immersed in his Zodiac persona by that point in time.
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:03 am

Either way....they game is a-foot Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:51 am

Nachtsider wrote:
I do admit the timing issue poses a problem, but these issues...

bentley wrote:
Another issue is the other crimes. Were LHR and BRS also intended victims? What about Stine? Considering Z's ulterior motive, fame, freaking out the public and needling the cops, it seems a bit doubtful.

But anything is possible. Did Z wear the costume so he wouldn't be recognized by Cecelia? Why not just come out and say "It's me, now you die"?

... aren't really too much of issues.


True enough. Of Means, Motive and Opportunity, there's usually a way to explain the motive, it's the other two that get sticky.

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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:41 am

As crazy as it may sound....you know who might be able to help us find info about this shoe salesman and the store he worked at....may be 'ZODE' from San Bernardino. I might be able to give him a call. Do we know EXACTLY which mall this store was located at?I recall reading that there was only one possible location back then. Was in 1969? Any info will help, if I get enough info I will give him a call.

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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:23 pm

morf13 wrote:
As crazy as it may sound....you know who might be able to help us find info about this shoe salesman and the store he worked at....may be 'ZODE' from San Bernardino. I might be able to give him a call. Do we know EXACTLY which mall this store was located at?I recall reading that there was only one possible location back then. Was in 1969? Any info will help, if I get enough info I will give him a call.

Morf, it would have to be the Inland Center Mall in San Bernardino as the other Central City Mall (later renamed Carousel Mall ) Mall did not open prior to 1972. I posted about it here:

http://zodiackiller.21.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?p=126536&sid=921cac5288680f8fa90322a9b6fe895f#126536

Not sure if we can pinpoint a certain shoestore as the anchor department stores may have also sold shoes. I have also looked through San Bernardino yearbooks from the time and some years after to see any pics of the Mall in question. Did not spot any shoestores. Could not find any vintage floor plans or indices either.

-Nin

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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:31 pm

If we were able to say we are looking for an indivudually operated shoestore located inside the Inland Center Mall in the year 1969, chances are the Mall will not have any records from that time. However, if it was a store they must have had a sign over their entrance. In that case it would have required a city permit to put up a sign of any kind. The city of San Bernardino may still have records on microfilm from that time period. Therefore I would go to the city first.

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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:32 pm

Locri @ Tom's mb posted about there only being a couple of shoe stores and their take is it was probably "Leeds" or "Thom Mcan". The latter being more conservative and not likely the place. Locri grew up there.

If anyone thinks they can track down a shoesalesman from 1969...go for it! I have no idea who you would go about that.

Too bad her roommate didn't contact Napa LE when she didn't hear back from SF. I must admit, it bothers me one would send info to SF when she was murdered in Napa. Now all this with shoes, the Mikado, a possible military man. I don't know...

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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:13 pm

tahoe27 wrote:
I must admit, it bothers me one would send info to SF when she was murdered in Napa.
The way Zodiac addressed the SFPD in his letters, and the way the newspapers reported things, perhaps she was under the mistaken impression that the SFPD were the principal law-enforcement agency handling the case.
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:47 pm

Nachtsider wrote:
tahoe27 wrote:
I must admit, it bothers me one would send info to SF when she was murdered in Napa.
The way Zodiac addressed the SFPD in his letters, and the way the newspapers reported things, perhaps she was under the mistaken impression that the SFPD were the principal law-enforcement agency handling the case.

Yes, I believe that is what she said at Tom's.

I would think having not heard back from SF she would have tried LE where the actual murder took place. ESPECIALLY once the Mikado stuff was found out. It just seems as if she could have had valuable information and let it go.

Not trying to blame as I know people have their own way of thinking, just trying to understand.

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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:59 pm

morf13 wrote:
As crazy as it may sound....you know who might be able to help us find info about this shoe salesman and the store he worked at....may be 'ZODE' from San Bernardino. I might be able to give him a call. Do we know EXACTLY which mall this store was located at?I recall reading that there was only one possible location back then. Was in 1969? Any info will help, if I get enough info I will give him a call.
Heck at least we can see what Zode has been doing lately. Maybe he well talk about Melvin again also. Serious worth a shot maybe he will know something.
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PostSubject: Zode?   Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:10 am

Morf 13, may I ask you what you mean with 'Zode' from San Bernardino? In this relation the Domingos/Edwards comes into my mind...there has been a kid named 'Sandy' (police sketch available) as well as a kid that named himself as Zodiac at school (info from the board)..could have been the shoe salesman as well.

Overall I still am a believer that one of the first killings of Z was Cheri Jo Bates...in this relationship I had tried to figure out the friend of 'Bob Barnett' because I believe that his real name might have been John *v*r*ett Jr., which would match the my-name-is-cipher somehow as only one of at least 4.000 high school graduate names (!)...maybe this all is one and the same person? If this one would somehow be related to the house in Orinda, we really´d have a new suspect #1., a suspect who worked his whole life for the Pentagon, by the way.

However I was wondering why didn´t have any reactions on my radian theory which led not only to a detailled position in an area called 'Diablo View', but also showed up with a strange 'bomb' sign on a building..however this could have been put on the building after Z had built or sold the house or had felt safer by the time. As well Orinda geographically is good positioned for the other murder sites, as well given a strong relatinoship to Mount Diablo.

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t58p15-6-26-70-zodiac-button-letter-with-map
http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t1069-mt-diablo-an-overlooked-clue#24014
http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t1024-john-8v8r8th-jr-my-name-is

Sometimes I wish I wouldn´t live too far away from this area or at least knew how to get a land register information on 26, St. Stephens Drv..

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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:20 am

Was looking around the net for shoes and shoe salesman in San Berbardino "back then", this is what I found, I don´t have time to check it out propperly , so please check it out if you have time, you might find somthing of interest, good luck Smile


Here is an older man ( with kind of Z look, see picture) who post on the net that he used to sell shoes in the San Bernardino area. (He posted 8 posts.)He also wrote that: "Karl's Shoe store was not the only actual shoe store on E street where shoe "salesman" fit the shoe to the persons foot" kind of odd way to put it isn't it? or is it just me?
He also tell people that he bought "a cheap bayonet there" Shocked

The facebook site is no longer working so you only get it by "catched", this is a "catched " link hope it works:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:I9k5UeUqj3wJ:mk-mk.facebook.com/topic.php%3Fuid%3D214414748272%26topic%3D12304%26perpage%3D30%26post_index%3D31%26start%3D-11%26post_id%3D76487+%22Inland+Center+Mall%22+%2Bvintage+%2B%22shoe+salesman%22&cd=1&hl=da&ct=clnk&gl=dk




Ger
Yes. Richard's Pancake house used to be Uncle John's Pancake house. Was the Country Store up in Devore? Yes, I do remember Miller's Surplus Store when it was on 7th and E street. (I bought a cheap bayonet there!) Karl's Shoe store was not the only actual shoe store on E street where shoe "salesman" fit the shoe to the persons foot. I used to work at Hardy's Shoes for Men and Boys (probably the cheapest shoes in town) on E across from the Ritz before it changed to the PussyCat, in '67. There was also Canada Shoes and a few others. Check out the older posts or the list of photos, you will find photos of what Richard's/Uncle John's looks like now, the empty lot where Pail o Chicken used to be, That StarDust Roller Rink sign (because as I said, who wants to look at a boarded up, graffitti'd abandoned building), Long John Silver's in front of the StarDust. Penney's and Woolworth's are on the list as well as some of the other downtown former businesses. I also have a 32 minute video on DVD of "Cruisin' Berdoo" series, called "Cruisin E Street". Email me for more info. I plan to do a series of "Cruisin' Berdoo" and do various places that we all cruised when we were young. "Cruisin Kendall/40th Street" Will be coming soon. "Cruisin' Highland Ave", Maybe a "Cruisin Boozin' " for all the bar hoppers. Any suggestions will be cheerfully considered. (Did I say cheerfully?)



And another poster "Bryan" introduced the shop "Miller's Outpost, a military surplus store, on E st" where "Ger" bought his bayonet, this shop is also possibly interesting IMO, because it was a military surplus store, could they have a shoe/boot section? and could Cecelia have bought her shoes there?


Bryan
Anyone old as me that use to hang out at: J's Coffee Shop, The Pail'O Chicken; Richard's Pancake House; Heddlestons; Carloni's Market; The Country Store; Tastee Freeze, on 40th; Zanoni's Liquor; Stop and Go; The Rowe Branch Library: The Main Library when it was on 4th and D sts.; The Masonic Temple, when it was on 4th and D; The Stardust Roller Rink; San Hi Lanes; Queen's Grinder's when it was on Highland and E st; Burger Chef, on E. Highland: The 7 Kitchens, The Gingerbread House, Pickwick Books and Judy's, all at the Inland Center; Miller's Outpost when it was a military surplus store, on E st; Karl's Shoes on E st, before the Mall; Penney's when it was on 5th and E; The Ritz to see Bambi when it was a first run in the theatres, now that's old, lol.
Anyone else care to channel a long list from there dusty memory. Smile



And here is another website that talk about old times in San Bernardino, lots of talk about shops etc,
fex. "Thom McAn" the shoe shop mentiones as one of the possibilities where Cecelia's "sho salesman" might have worked:

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=478687&showall=1


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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:48 am

I'm more disturbed by the over use of the word 'cruisin'. Prowl car anyone? lol

In regard to that statement actually it was apparently an old phrase and may have been one of the reasons suggesting Z was older.

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