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Theforeigner
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:29 am

traveller1st wrote:
I'm more disturbed by the over use of the word 'cruisin'. Prowl car anyone? lol

In regard to that statement actually it was apparently an old phrase and may have been one of the reasons suggesting Z was older.

Good catch Traveller.

Zodiac used the cruis term twice, but misspelled it both times:

July 31st 1969
If you do not print this cipher by the afternoon of Fry.1st of Aug 69, I will go on a kill ram-Page Fry. night.
I will cruse around all weekend killing lone people in the night then move on to kill again, until I end up with a dozen people over the weekend.



November 9, 1969
Hey blue pig I was in the park -- you were useing fire trucks to mask the sound of your cruzeing prowl cars



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Nachtsider
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:19 pm

Older turn of phrase? It sounds more like something that the hip youngsters of the Sixties might have said back in the day.
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tahoe27
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:05 pm

Nachtsider wrote:
Older turn of phrase? It sounds more like something that the hip youngsters of the Sixties might have said back in the day.

Yes, I agree. Don't think older folks used the term "cruising". I used it a lot in my younger years--when we would cruise the strip.

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tahoe27
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:42 pm

TF--Great research...and the bayonet! Nice touch.

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traveller1st
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:15 pm

prowl car
Prowler cars

Prowl car Definition
Dictionary.com
prowl car 
noun
squad car.

Origin:
1935–40, Americanism

Related Words for : prowl car
cruiser, patrol car, police car, police cruiser, squad car

EDIT: forgot to add I think it said somewhere else that it was most popular in the 50's so it seems to be an older term than I thought as well.

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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:45 pm

Theforeigner wrote:
traveller1st wrote:
I'm more disturbed by the over use of the word 'cruisin'. Prowl car anyone? lol

In regard to that statement actually it was apparently an old phrase and may have been one of the reasons suggesting Z was older.

Good catch Traveller.

Zodiac used the cruis term twice, but misspelled it both times:

July 31st 1969
If you do not print this cipher by the afternoon of Fry.1st of Aug 69, I will go on a kill ram-Page Fry. night.
I will cruse around all weekend killing lone people in the night then move on to kill again, until I end up with a dozen people over the weekend.



November 9, 1969
Hey blue pig I was in the park -- you were useing fire trucks to mask the sound of your cruzeing prowl cars




When I was interviewing Lake Herman Rd 'Witness', James Owen by phone, I asked him how familiar he was with the sorrounding areas around Vallejo, and he said "Not too familiar, I never did CRUISE AROUND the area" Shocked

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bentley
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:02 pm

I can assure you, "cruising" was about as popular a term as "eating" around the Bay Area at the time. Remember American Graffiti, much of it filmed in the Bar Area? Police cars were also known as cruisers.

If someone's hellbent on finding this guy, another idea that's about as equal to finding a shoe salesman in Berdo in the needle in a haystack department would be to try and find the phone records of Cecelia at PUC. He apparently contacted her at least once when she gave him the brush off, and since he somehow would have to have known she would even be up the weekend she was killed, he may have talked to her again in the days leading up to then. I have no idea what living accommodations she had, how many people shared the phones in her room, dorm or what have you.
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Seagull
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:13 pm

FWIW- The term "prowl car" is used in a number of the detective magazines that I have and I have a lot of them, mostly from the '60's and '70's.
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traveller1st
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:49 pm

Out of curiosity Seagull do you know off-hand what decade the articles/stories were set in that used the term? Or were they all just set in the 60's and 70's?

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Seagull
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:56 pm

The term was used definitely in the '60's. Considering that Zodiac wrote his letters starting in the latter part of 1969 I think the detective magazines could have been an inspiration for some of his wording and spelling. I have a few magazines from the '30's and '40's and in those magazines they spell the word clue, clew just lke Zodiac did! I have seen it spelled clew, too, in old newspaper articles.
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traveller1st
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:20 pm

Ah interesting, I thought it was always just a spelling mistake. Didn't realise it was actually spelled that way once. Wondered if it meant something else and this the dictionary def for it.


clew 1 (kl)
n.
1. A ball of yarn or thread.
2. Greek Mythology The ball of thread used by Theseus to find his way out of the labyrinth.
3. clews The cords by which a hammock is suspended.
4. also clue Nautical
a. One of the two lower corners of a square sail.
b. The lower aft corner of a fore-and-aft sail.
c. A metal loop attached to the lower corner of a sail.
tr.v. clewed, clew·ing, clews
1. To roll or coil into a ball.
2. also clue Nautical To raise the lower corners of (a square sail) by means of clew lines. Used with up.
[Middle English clewe, from Old English cliwen.]


Thought number 2 was quite apt.

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Seagull
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:31 pm

Yeah, all of those things have been discussed at one time or another without any definite conclusions.

You might be interested to read this old detective magazine article posted here-

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t949-alfred-m-bud-lord-death
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traveller1st
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:08 pm

Nice one - thanks. Apologies for threadjacking BTW Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:49 pm

Just got off the phone with 'Zode' from San Bernardino (man he can talk)...I asked him if he remembered specific names of Shoe stores that were at the San Bernardino Mall in 1969.....and he rattled off the list of stores like he had them memorized. They were-


*TOM MCCANN(which may have only sold mens shoes)

*GALLENKAMP (unsure of spelling)

*HOWE'S (Family owned, upscale)

*LEED'S (women's shoe store)

May I suggest that somebody start a topic on this subject on the site TOPIX.com for the town of San Bernardino. Mention that you are looking to hear from people that remember some of the shoe stores at the San Bernardino mall back in 1969....you may get responses from custoers or employess of these places, or from relatives of employees.

Another good idea is to look in the back of old year books in the sponsors sections. Here is one from Cal State in San Bernardino from 1967:

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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:19 pm

I found this posted on the net:

"The Inland Center Mall in the 1960s is of interest to me. This is a real big long shot ,but does anyone remember back then or the 60's any of the shoestores? Leeds and McCanns were two of these kinds of stores. There could have been a store/s that sold boots and other types of products too?
A Ceclia Ann Shepherd purchased a pair of boots at a store in the Inland Center Mall Mall back in the 60's. It is the male shoes salesman that I am interested in.
Someone may have remembered him or worked with him as someone who may have bothered a female/s in some way or something that stood out about him in some manner.
He was supposed to have worked part time at March AFB at selling shoes/boots.
He may have worked at Riverside Mall back then too
."

I see people are setting the wheels in motion to try and ID this guy.

KATANA9Q might have alot to add to this as he lived in San Bernardino, but he has been Awol from the forum for a very long time, and despite multiple emails, I cant get a hold of him.

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"Back when I was picking beans in Guatemala, we used to make fresh coffee, right off the trees I mean. That was good. This is shit but, hey, I'm in a police station"
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Zamantha
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:11 am

morf13 wrote:
I found this posted on the net:

"The Inland Center Mall in the 1960s is of interest to me. This is a real big long shot ,but does anyone remember back then or the 60's any of the shoestores? Leeds and McCanns were two of these kinds of stores. There could have been a store/s that sold boots and other types of products too?
A Ceclia Ann Shepherd purchased a pair of boots at a store in the Inland Center Mall Mall back in the 60's. It is the male shoes salesman that I am interested in.
Someone may have remembered him or worked with him as someone who may have bothered a female/s in some way or something that stood out about him in some manner.
He was supposed to have worked part time at March AFB at selling shoes/boots.
He may have worked at Riverside Mall back then too
."

I see people are setting the wheels in motion to try and ID this guy.

KATANA9Q might have alot to add to this as he lived in San Bernardino, but he has been Awol from the forum for a very long time, and despite multiple emails, I cant get a hold of him.

Morf, Just sent a message off to Kantana9Q! I'm pretty sure we will here back Smile I heard from him in December.
Zincerely, Zam*

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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:04 am

Zamantha wrote:
morf13 wrote:
I found this posted on the net:

"The Inland Center Mall in the 1960s is of interest to me. This is a real big long shot ,but does anyone remember back then or the 60's any of the shoestores? Leeds and McCanns were two of these kinds of stores. There could have been a store/s that sold boots and other types of products too?
A Ceclia Ann Shepherd purchased a pair of boots at a store in the Inland Center Mall Mall back in the 60's. It is the male shoes salesman that I am interested in.
Someone may have remembered him or worked with him as someone who may have bothered a female/s in some way or something that stood out about him in some manner.
He was supposed to have worked part time at March AFB at selling shoes/boots.
He may have worked at Riverside Mall back then too
."

I see people are setting the wheels in motion to try and ID this guy.

KATANA9Q might have alot to add to this as he lived in San Bernardino, but he has been Awol from the forum for a very long time, and despite multiple emails, I cant get a hold of him.

Morf, Just sent a message off to Kantana9Q! I'm pretty sure we will here back Smile I heard from him in December.
Zincerely, Zam*

I have emailed him at least 3 times in the last 3 or 4 months and never got a reply. Before that, we had exchanged several emails and spoke on the phone multiple times. Maybe he is mad at me for something??

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"Back when I was picking beans in Guatemala, we used to make fresh coffee, right off the trees I mean. That was good. This is shit but, hey, I'm in a police station"
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:08 am

Also this shoe salesman supposedly brought her to see THE MIKADO someplace. Not sure is we have a roundabout date, but let's say it was at the earliest, 1968, and the latest Sept 69. I will try to list ALL of the performances if the MIKADO I found in CA during that period:

*3/12/68 Simi Valley HS(2 hours west of Riverside)performs MIKADO

*July 1968, in the REDLANDS area (about 10-20 miles from San Bernardino) the Mikado was perfromed(not sure by whom)

*August 16 & 17 1968, CHATSWORTH, CA (about 90 min from Riverside)St Johns In the Valley Methodist church performed the Mikado

*July, 1968, at the REDLANDS BOWL, The Mikado was performed(again, this is very close to the Riverside & San Bernardino areas)

*Sept, 1968, every Fri &Sat in Sept, at 8:15pm at the California Playhouse on Foothill Blvd & 35th ave, The Mikado was performed, I believe this was teh Oakland area.

*October/November, 1968, at the Burlingame HS, The Mikado was performed

*November 22&23, 1968, the 'Pacific Players' in the Hayward area, performed The Mikado( I believe they may have been a high school group)

*January 10& 11, 1969 at the Curran Theatre in San Fran, the D'Oyly Carte opera performed the Mikado

*July, 1969, The Lamplighters, a bay area groups put on The Mikado

*July/August 1969, The Mikado was performed in the Redlands area

I am sure there were more, but this is what I was able to find spending an hour or so looking




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tahoe27
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:26 pm

morf--I know the roommate said it was for sure somewhere is Southern California. Maybe focus there. I think she was thinking L.A. ??

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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:11 pm

Found this post from 2004

There have been a couple of nice books written about the zodiac killer. One I read named the killer as a shoe salesman from Santa Rosa.
7 posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 2:14:39 PM

Anybody know what book and author the poster is talking about ?
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:19 pm

tahoe27 wrote:
morf--I know the roommate said it was for sure somewhere is Southern California. Maybe focus there. I think she was thinking L.A. ??

Certainly L.A. could be possible, but I wouldnt rule out the Redlands Bowl. They did quite a few Mikado & Gilbert & Sullivan shows there...Plus, its only 18 minutes from Riverside/15 minutes from San Bernardino

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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:44 pm

StitchMallone wrote:
Found this post from 2004

There have been a couple of nice books written about the zodiac killer. One I read named the killer as a shoe salesman from Santa Rosa.
7 posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 2:14:39 PM

Anybody know what book and author the poster is talking about ?

Doesn't sound like any of the major Zodiac books I've read. I'd dismiss this as bull, but the mention of a shoe salesman, so congruent with what Celia's roommate says, makes me hesitate.
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:58 pm

Nachtsider wrote:
StitchMallone wrote:
Found this post from 2004

There have been a couple of nice books written about the zodiac killer. One I read named the killer as a shoe salesman from Santa Rosa.
7 posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 2:14:39 PM

Anybody know what book and author the poster is talking about ?

Doesn't sound like any of the major Zodiac books I've read. I'd dismiss this as bull, but the mention of a shoe salesman, so congruent with what Celia's roommate says, makes me hesitate.
Thanks Nacht and yes it's a odd post Imo also since the roommate mentioned the shoe salesman.
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:11 am

I am not aware of any shoe salesmen from Santa Rosa that were suspects in the Zodiac murders or the SRHM. I know ALA lived there for a time but I've never heard of him having that job!

What board did you read this on?
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PostSubject: Re: The Shoe Salesman   Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:56 am

Seagull wrote:
I am not aware of any shoe salesmen from Santa Rosa that were suspects in the Zodiac murders or the SRHM. I know ALA lived there for a time but I've never heard of him having that job!

What board did you read this on?
Found it on a Google search.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1113197/posts
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