More on Don Bujok

I will keep this short and to the point as I don't want this to be about Kevin but Don Bujok.

I was reading this thread last night and Kevin had posted something about "discovering" the 52 inch Track Width on the suspect POI vehicle from 1968-LHR.

I hate to burst his bubble but this has been discussed EVERYWHERE since the late 90's. The wheel track width is measured from center rear tire to center rear tire and the police in the LHR case measured the "track" from outside rear tire track to outside rear tire track.

He then mentioned that Bujok had a 57 Ford truck and a 1961 Chevy Impala, which Kevin stated both had 52 inch track widths.....before editing that information out later on.

Could it have been because the 1957 Ford Truck had a 58 Inch Track width and the Impala a 62 inch track width??

I also must question the ability for a man who hasn't driven in 15+ years, who may not have had a license, to drive over 1100 Miles in the dead of Winter ( trust me I live NORTH of Montana!!) in a piece of crap ( after all to be the LHR car ......it had to have had 4 different very worn tires) without being pulled over, ticketed, crashed or stuck.

Secondly, how much money did Bujok have on Dec 18, 1968?? Would the 10 cents a day ( even for 15 years) be enough to tune, gas and equip a vehicle so as it is roadworthy to make an 1100 mile trip, starting in the worst conditions possible??

Did he have insurance or valid plates?? These cost money and took some time yet the absence of such would have been a giant magnet for attention and likely too big a risk for a fleeing parolee to take.

Finally, how could Don Bujok write a letter to the Editor of the local Montana paper ( in response to a letter of a day or two earlier) AND post a letter to SF Chronicle from the Bay Area on the same day?????

July 8, 1974 seems to screw this theory as 2 letters were sent to 2 editors in 2 cities over 1000 miles away from each other simultaneously and the one in MT was DEFINITELY sent by Bujok.

Never have figured out how that RP letter got tied to Z...

Nin, I've always thought Z had a humble side as well, he admitted his bus bomb was a dud, he admitted his frustration that the phone rang back after LHR, told Belli he was not in control of himself for a few examples. Just fyi, I'm no psychologist.

bentley wrote:

Never have figured out how that RP letter got tied to Z...

Nin, I've always thought Z had a humble side as well, he admitted his bus bomb was a dud, he admitted his frustration that the phone rang back after LHR, told Belli he was not in control of himself for a few examples. Just fyi, I'm no psychologist.

Bentley, check your PM

If LHR wasn't actually Zodiac, then Zodiac could be Bujok. And...since I am still on the fence with LB--that attacker could have been one of the Deer Lodge guys.

(I know there has been some comments too about whether or not the attacker ever even mentioned Deer Lodge. But, the interesting thing is Bryan, when he couldn't remember the name, DID remember MONTANA. So it would seem likely Deer Lodge IS what Bryan meant.)

IMO, if any of these guys commited a "Z" murder, it was at Lake Berryessa. I don't believe in "team Zodiac", but rather someone at LB commiting the crime to make it seem as it were Zodiac.

Also, you can mail a letter to a post office and they will mail it for you. So you can have a postmark from anywhere!

In Bonus Fides wrote:

I will keep this short and to the point as I don't want this to be about Kevin but Don Bujok.

I was reading this thread last night and Kevin had posted something about "discovering" the 52 inch Track Width on the suspect POI vehicle from 1968-LHR.

I hate to burst his bubble but this has been discussed EVERYWHERE since the late 90's. The wheel track width is measured from center rear tire to center rear tire and the police in the LHR case measured the "track" from outside rear tire track to outside rear tire track.

He then mentioned that Bujok had a 57 Ford truck and a 1961 Chevy Impala, which Kevin stated both had 52 inch track widths.....before editing that information out later on.

Could it have been because the 1957 Ford Truck had a 58 Inch Track width and the Impala a 62 inch track width??

I also must question the ability for a man who hasn't driven in 15+ years, who may not have had a license, to drive over 1100 Miles in the dead of Winter ( trust me I live NORTH of Montana!!) in a piece of crap ( after all to be the LHR car ......it had to have had 4 different very worn tires) without being pulled over, ticketed, crashed or stuck.

Secondly, how much money did Bujok have on Dec 18, 1968?? Would the 10 cents a day ( even for 15 years) be enough to tune, gas and equip a vehicle so as it is roadworthy to make an 1100 mile trip, starting in the worst conditions possible??

Did he have insurance or valid plates?? These cost money and took some time yet the absence of such would have been a giant magnet for attention and likely too big a risk for a fleeing parolee to take.

Finally, how could Don Bujok write a letter to the Editor of the local Montana paper ( in response to a letter of a day or two earlier) AND post a letter to SF Chronicle from the Bay Area on the same day?????

July 8, 1974 seems to screw this theory as 2 letters were sent to 2 editors in 2 cities over 1000 miles away from each other simultaneously and the one in MT was DEFINITELY sent by Bujok.

You’re demoted! I did not say Ford Truck or Chevy Impala. I said ‘57’ Chevy Truck and ‘61' Buick Skylark. I myself measured the 'inside to inside' tire tracks on both the truck and the car at a car show last week in Palmetto, Florida. I am correct. I also wrote that I pointed out "discovered” a misprint in Graysmith’s book on page 77 and 318. As others were quoting the 57 inches from Graysmith's book, even Howard. Being the great guy he is he thanked me when I corrected him. Why do you waste your time trying to discredit me? As I pointed out before I am having trouble with my keyboard and it is being replaced today and I sometimes find details I have left out and I put them in or correct misspells. I hate misspells. I am a perfectionist!


Here is what I wrote” I'll comment as I have before on this issue. The date stated is the date he left. According to my sources in Montana which include prison officials. Each Inmate would get a bus ticket and a little cash (maybe $25.00) and would be watched until he was to the edge of town. They would have to report to their parole officer once a month. Remember, Bujok lived 200 miles away from Deer Lodge. Bujok had 2 cars one a '57' Chevy pickup and a '61' Buick Skylark. Interesting to note: both were 52" to 52" inside wheel to inside wheel. What I did edit was the amount of money they Montana State Prison Parole Board) gave. I wrote $200.00 but it was supossed to be $25.00. That is what the Deputy Warden told me and when I found it I corrected it. Don's family kept the cars for him. Don left prison full of rage I am sure! No more editing for me.... You stand corrected! How about an apology?

The Police Report:

tahoe27 wrote:

..

Also, you can mail a letter to a post office and they will mail it for you. So you can have a postmark from anywhere!..

Just talked to the US postal service. If there is no forwarding address in the computer, they will mail the letter "in the letter", legally.

So, confirmed.

-Nin

Kevin B wrote:

In Bonus Fides wrote:

I will keep this short and to the point as I don't want this to be about Kevin but Don Bujok.

I was reading this thread last night and Kevin had posted something about "discovering" the 52 inch Track Width on the suspect POI vehicle from 1968-LHR.

I hate to burst his bubble but this has been discussed EVERYWHERE since the late 90's. The wheel track width is measured from center rear tire to center rear tire and the police in the LHR case measured the "track" from outside rear tire track to outside rear tire track.

He then mentioned that Bujok had a 57 Ford truck and a 1961 Chevy Impala, which Kevin stated both had 52 inch track widths.....before editing that information out later on.

Could it have been because the 1957 Ford Truck had a 58 Inch Track width and the Impala a 62 inch track width??

I also must question the ability for a man who hasn't driven in 15+ years, who may not have had a license, to drive over 1100 Miles in the dead of Winter ( trust me I live NORTH of Montana!!) in a piece of crap ( after all to be the LHR car ......it had to have had 4 different very worn tires) without being pulled over, ticketed, crashed or stuck.

Secondly, how much money did Bujok have on Dec 18, 1968?? Would the 10 cents a day ( even for 15 years) be enough to tune, gas and equip a vehicle so as it is roadworthy to make an 1100 mile trip, starting in the worst conditions possible??

Did he have insurance or valid plates?? These cost money and took some time yet the absence of such would have been a giant magnet for attention and likely too big a risk for a fleeing parolee to take.

Finally, how could Don Bujok write a letter to the Editor of the local Montana paper ( in response to a letter of a day or two earlier) AND post a letter to SF Chronicle from the Bay Area on the same day?????

July 8, 1974 seems to screw this theory as 2 letters were sent to 2 editors in 2 cities over 1000 miles away from each other simultaneously and the one in MT was DEFINITELY sent by Bujok.

You’re demoted! I did not say Ford Truck or Chevy Impala. I said ‘57’ Chevy Truck and ‘61' Buick Skylark. I myself measured the 'inside to inside' tire tracks on both the truck and the car at a car show last week in Palmetto, Florida. I am correct. I also wrote that I pointed out "discovered” a misprint in Graysmith’s book on page 77 and 318. As others were quoting the 57 inches from Graysmith's book, even Howard. Being the great guy he is he thanked me when I corrected him. Why do you waste your time trying to discredit me? As I pointed out before I am having trouble with my keyboard and it is being replaced today and I sometimes find details I have left out and I put them in or correct misspells. I hate misspells. I am a perfectionist!


Here is what I wrote” I'll comment as I have before on this issue. The date stated is the date he left. According to my sources in Montana which include prison officials. Each Inmate would get a bus ticket and a little cash (maybe $25.00) and would be watched until he was to the edge of town. They would have to report to their parole officer once a month. Remember, Bujok lived 200 miles away from Deer Lodge. Bujok had 2 cars one a '57' Chevy pickup and a '61' Buick Skylark. Interesting to note: both were 52" to 52" inside wheel to inside wheel. What I did edit was the amount of money they Montana State Prison Parole Board) gave. I wrote $200.00 but it was supossed to be $25.00. That is what the Deputy Warden told me and when I found it I corrected it. Don's family kept the cars for him. Don left prison full of rage I am sure! No more editing for me.... You stand corrected! How about an apology?

The Police Report:

Kevin,

The track width you mention is measured from center of tire to center of tire, not from inside to inside as the LHR crime scene investigators measured.

If you adjust for the two different tires and an inside to inside measurement, then the track width is STILL not comparable to the imprints at LHR.

57 Chevy had a 62.7 inch rear track width. The Skylark is 58.5 inches ( with proper tires) so it may be close, but still not a match.

As I see it, you stand corrected. I don't expect an apology though, as I believe my point can stand on the specs/facts.

http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Wheelbase,_track_width,_and_differential_measurements

http://www.quickperformance.com/Technical%20Info/sus_measure.htm


Also, how does a guy drive 1100 miles in a 1957 Chevy or a 1961 Impala or Skylark, in winter, on $25( even with 60 cent gallons of gas)???

IBF

For those of you non-automotive types desperately trying to follow along, or just there picking your nose, here is a simple diagram noting the difference between tire track as used by the auto industry and the measurement taken at LB. Basically, if you take the LB measurement of 52" and add half of each tire width, which I believe are different on the suspected Zmobile but are quoted, you will arrive at the published auto figures, should you be checking on your POImobile.

One thing to keep in mind if measuring cars on the road: Many old collector cars have been modified with fancier, wider or different offset wheels and tires, which will dramatically change the track measurement. Probably best to stick to the published figures unless you know for sure the car you are checking. It is possible, since Zs tires didn't match (iirc), that he had a different wheel as well. I would generally give about an inch leeway either way when considering a vehicle for LB

bentley wrote:

For those of you non-automotive types desperately trying to follow along, or just there picking your nose, here is a simple diagram noting the difference between tire track as used by the auto industry and the measurement taken at LB. Basically, if you take the LB measurement of 52" and add half of each tire width, which I believe are different on the suspected Zmobile but are quoted, you will arrive at the published auto figures, should you be checking on your POImobile.

One thing to keep in mind if measuring cars on the road: Many old collector cars have been modified with fancier, wider or different offset wheels and tires, which will dramatically change the track measurement. Probably best to stick to the published figures unless you know for sure the car you are checking. It is possible, since Zs tires didn't match (iirc), that he had a different wheel as well. I would generally give about an inch leeway either way when considering a vehicle for LB

Thank you Bentley!!!! I was just going to post something similar.... Thank you!!! It's so Frustrating!!!! Why is it I write something and I have worked on very high profile muder cases I get these questions and misquotes thrown at me? I have now an astrology expert doing a chart on Donald Lee Bujok. Thank you so much Bentley!!!!!!

Nice illustration, Bentley.


-Nin

Nin wrote:

tahoe27 wrote:

..

Also, you can mail a letter to a post office and they will mail it for you. So you can have a postmark from anywhere!..

Just talked to the US postal service. If there is no forwarding address in the computer, they will mail the letter "in the letter", legally.

So, confirmed.

-Nin

Thanks for confirming!

I know it was something people used to do to and would probably have been easier back in '69. I have friends who have done it. Post Office manipulation....like reversing the return address and not putting a stamp on the envelope so it gets mailed for free. I recently had a customer do that!

I told the lady from the USPS on the phone I was rather surprised they would do that. I mean, processing a letter without sender address. I always thought a sender address was mandatory. You can never trace a letter back that way.

-Nin

Left: A typical Deer Lodge cell.... Middle: Door to 'The hole'...... Right:'The hole' The left picture is probably the newer section as the old section of the prison did not have plumbing.

Kevin B.






[[

Why did Bujok get into the hole?

-Nin

bentley wrote:

For those of you non-automotive types desperately trying to follow along, or just there picking your nose, here is a simple diagram noting the difference between tire track as used by the auto industry and the measurement taken at LB. Basically, if you take the LB measurement of 52" and add half of each tire width, which I believe are different on the suspected Zmobile but are quoted, you will arrive at the published auto figures, should you be checking on your POImobile.

One thing to keep in mind if measuring cars on the road: Many old collector cars have been modified with fancier, wider or different offset wheels and tires, which will dramatically change the track measurement. Probably best to stick to the published figures unless you know for sure the car you are checking. It is possible, since Zs tires didn't match (iirc), that he had a different wheel as well. I would generally give about an inch leeway either way when considering a vehicle for LB

Hey Bentley! I know that you are very knowledgable about anything on wheels but I don't think that the Napa County Sheriff's investigators were going by industry standards when measuring the wheel track. This is what is written in the DOJ report about how the measurement was taken.



http://www.zodiackiller.com/DOJ9.html

Going by the report it says that the "distance between the INSIDE of the left tread and the INSIDE of the right tread measures approximately 52" ." It does not say that the measurement was taken from the middle of the tread.

So, Kevin, one tire was 5 1/2" wide and the other was 4 1/2" wide. If you divide each tire width in half and then add those two numbers together you get 5". When the 5" is added to the sheriff's department measurement of 52" you get the 57" which would be equal to the industry standard for measuring the wheel track.

p

Kevin,
I have also been interested in Bujok since he was first mentioned. So I read all the boards every night
and try to keep up. I am by no means in the league of you and others but try to help out when I have time.
That being said, I did read the post on Tom's site about the youtube comment. Did you make this comment?

A man in Bradenton, Florida named Kevin Brooks recently discovered who Zodiac was along with evidence left by his Grandfather Detective Robert M. Slavin. Detective Slavin is now been deceased for 4 years but left behind his theories and tips for his Grandson. The handprints and mug shot are now in the hands of the SF Police Department.
KevinSean116 2 weeks ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZCYvWKwMxc

Kevin, I wish you all the best and think the world of you, but don't get your hopes too high about the prints. Just as you "believe with all your heart" that Don Bujok was Z, I am certain without a shred of doubt in my mind that my POI was Z. Since there was only one Z, one or both of us must be wrong. I'd literally bet my house that I'm right. Hopefully, time will tell.

rand wrote:

Kevin, I wish you all the best and think the world of you, but don't get your hopes too high about the prints. Just as you "believe with all your heart" that Don Bujok was Z, I am certain without a shred of doubt in my mind that my POI was Z. Since there was only one Z, one or both of us must be wrong. I'd literally bet my house that I'm right. Hopefully, time will tell.

Rand, You just may be right and if you are it couldn't happen for a to a better person or site! You have done an awesome job on Houghton. He was one of my favorites! Still is. I don't rule out anyone's suspect as Z has not been caught yet. We will see what the prints say about our Bujok...

Seagull wrote:

Hey Bentley! I know that you are very knowledgable about anything on wheels but I don't think that the Napa County Sheriff's investigators were going by industry standards when measuring the wheel track. This is what is written in the DOJ report about how the measurement was taken.

You are correct Seagull, they did not go by industry standards (and I think there is a valid reason for that). Did I give the impression they did? The top measurement in my illustration shows the LB measurement, 52" from inside to inside, and the below that is the industry standard, center to center. Did I goof up, again?

Seagull wrote:

Going by the report it says that the "distance between the INSIDE of the left tread and the INSIDE of the right tread measures approximately 52" ." It does not say that the measurement was taken from the middle of the tread.

Again this is what I tried to show...

Seagull wrote:

So, Kevin, one tire was 5 1/2" wide and the other was 4 1/2" wide. If you divide each tire width in half and then add those two numbers together you get 5". When the 5" is added to the sheriff's department measurement of 52" you get the 57" which would be equal to the industry standard for measuring the wheel track.

Correct again The reasons they may have done the inside to inside measurement are 1) having to find the center of the tire imprints and measuring the true track figure might have resulted in either error or messing up the crime scene, and, more importantly 2) Having the possibility of different size wheels (due to the different tires), without getting into details, would change the track measurement. Measuring the inside to inside and tire width gives the exact details of the car in question, and the track can be easily calculated as you have done above.

Kevin B wrote:

By the way, Fiddle & Fart around is a common phrase used in Montana.... Donald Bujok also had a slight stutter.... Ask Hartnell about that.....

Kevin B.

I have never read or heard Hartnell say anything about a stutter. Anyone?

rand wrote:

Kevin, I wish you all the best and think the world of you, but don't get your hopes too high about the prints. Just as you "believe with all your heart" that Don Bujok was Z, I am certain without a shred of doubt in my mind that my POI was Z. Since there was only one Z, one or both of us must be wrong. I'd literally bet my house that I'm right. Hopefully, time will tell.

I just hope that whenever Z is identified, you two, Kaufman, Dr. D, Howard, Rodelli, AK, et all get together in one room, and whoever was right gets to flog the rest with a large number of cream pies, which I shall provide from my ringside seat.

bentley wrote:

rand wrote:

Kevin, I wish you all the best and think the world of you, but don't get your hopes too high about the prints. Just as you "believe with all your heart" that Don Bujok was Z, I am certain without a shred of doubt in my mind that my POI was Z. Since there was only one Z, one or both of us must be wrong. I'd literally bet my house that I'm right. Hopefully, time will tell.

I just hope that whenever Z is identified, you two, Kaufman, Dr. D, Howard, Rodelli, AK, et all get together in one room, and whoever was right gets to flog the rest with a large number of cream pies, which I shall provide from my ringside seat.

That would be a good pay per view. If one of these guys is right, they will deserve some credit for sticking to it.