The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok

Nin wrote:

I understand the card was sent to Paul Avery and he feared it was a direct thread towards himself. However, Kathleen Johns claims she got a very similar card and mailed it to Avery.

Why would she have gotten the same card to begin with if the card was to be to frighten Paul? So there could be more to it.

Dryman lived in Rialto, CA at one point when released. 5 miles from San Bernadino and KJ.

KJ's guy also had childrens' clothes..Dryman bailed his family (wife and her children) in '71..he couldn't handle it. I wonder if he spent a lot of time on the road.

tahoe27 wrote:

..
Dryman lived in Rialto, CA at one point when released. 5 miles from San Bernadino and KJ.

KJ's guy also had childrens' clothes..Dryman bailed his family (wife and her children) in '71..he couldn't handle it. I wonder if he spent a lot of time on the road.

I'll be darned. Thanks Tahoe!

-Nin

Nin wrote:

morf13 wrote:

tahoe27 wrote:

That'd be some quick steppin' to CA to commit double homicide. Not impossible, but probable?

100% speculation on my part, but what if the BUJAK I found in the Vallejo directory was really spelled BUJOK, and was a relative. Perhaps he lined up a job there, and went there with permission to work. Not sure if we can determine this.

Very possible. We would then have Dryman with family in CA and Bujok possibly having family in the Vallejo area, if this was to be proven. According to the Cameron report, Edward's aunt lives closed to where Stine was killed, and his female cousin lived close to where Zodiac got into the cab!

Here is something that about throw me off the chair today. According to morf'd scanned penitentiary documents:


Bujok:

No marks, no scars

Ed Edwards:

No marks, no scars

Frank Dryman: (bold mine)

Scar above right eye, Dim scar bridge of nose, Dim “F” tattooed on right cheek, numerous scars, inside left wrist, numerous dim scars left thumb, numerous scars both knees, Dim scar right elbow, Blotch scar back of right wrist, also inside right wrist. 1 ½ inch scar back of right hand, scar right side of upper lip, Blotch scar left buttocks. Tatoos: A DOT center of forehead, numerous tattoos entire body, an automatic full size left shoulderblade.

1.Could scars have been mistaken for acne scars by Kathleen Johns?

2.The HC symbol. Look at the right side of the symbol, an F ('Dim “F” tattooed on right cheek'). The dots. Could one of the dots be Dryman? L + F, LEE and FRANK?
Speculation, yes. Interesting? Yes.

Or, the HC symbol are 2 folks PLUS Zodiac?? LEE + FRANK + ZODIAC (EDWARDS?) It does not neccessarily mean they worked together as a team. It may mean Zodiac is commemorating his buddies here and they had to guess who their secret pal was?

I understand the card was sent to Paul Avery and he feared it was a direct thread towards himself. However, Kathleen Johns claims she got a very similar card and mailed it to Avery.
Why would she have gotten the same card to begin with if the card was to be to frighten Paul? So there could be more to it.

Interesting possibilities. I want to hear KevinB chime in as I am sure he is working to dig up more info on Bujok. In addition, I sent away for Bujok's military records to see what we can learn from them, any cipher training, etc. They should be in within a couple weeks

I have not scored on finding that one person that may have been close to Don... Again, Morph, Zamantha any of the numbers of the people I spoke with are available if you need em.... I do find him interesting but the distance thing gets me; as it's an awful long way to Vallejo... The people I spoke with were not close but acquaintances. One told me Bujok was paroled in the early 60's and that was not correct... I didn't think he would spend only 5 years or so for the murder of a lawman.

Gone fishing!

I'd better post something before Morph throws me out.

Great work digging up info on these killers, I've enjoyed following along. One thing to consider is Zodiac's 11/69 letter stating "My killing tools have been boughten through the mail order outfits before the ban went into effect, except one and it was bought out of state". By state, assume he means California. The Gun Control Act of 1968 was in place prior to the release of Dryman and Bujok, only Edwards, released in 1967, could have done so. Was he in California at that time, or in Ohio getting married and having kids as mentioned elsewhere?

Not to put a damper on these guys. Zodiac could have made this up, or some other party could have mail ordered the weapons if not Edwards. He does say "my killing tools have been bought", not "I bought"...

Glad to see you drop by Bentley!

morf13 wrote:

Glad to see you drop by Bentley!

Ditto. And your post is certainly something to consider Bentley.

bentley wrote:

I'd better post something before Morph throws me out.

Great work digging up info on these killers, I've enjoyed following along. One thing to consider is Zodiac's 11/69 letter stating "My killing tools have been boughten through the mail order outfits before the ban went into effect, except one and it was bought out of state". By state, assume he means California. The Gun Control Act of 1968 was in place prior to the release of Dryman and Bujok, only Edwards, released in 1967, could have done so. Was he in California at that time, or in Ohio getting married and having kids as mentioned elsewhere?

Not to put a damper on these guys. Zodiac could have made this up, or some other party could have mail ordered the weapons if not Edwards. He does say "my killing tools have been bought", not "I bought"...

I always like the way Bentley sees and posts things. He is a great thinker and researcher! This post is something to think about. You can drop by MORE often, Please!

Zincerely, Zam*

bentley wrote:

I'd better post something before Morph throws me out.

Great work digging up info on these killers, I've enjoyed following along. One thing to consider is Zodiac's 11/69 letter stating "My killing tools have been boughten through the mail order outfits before the ban went into effect, except one and it was bought out of state". By state, assume he means California. The Gun Control Act of 1968 was in place prior to the release of Dryman and Bujok, only Edwards, released in 1967, could have done so. Was he in California at that time, or in Ohio getting married and having kids as mentioned elsewhere?

Not to put a damper on these guys. Zodiac could have made this up, or some other party could have mail ordered the weapons if not Edwards. He does say "my killing tools have been bought", not "I bought"...

The Gun control of 1968 was enacted in October 22. Here is some info from John Cameron's report (pp 13-14) about Edward's whereabouts after he got paroled(bold mine):


-Nin

Edwards interviews!

Part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCA9DEIRdZI&feature=related
Part 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhiLdHzqDks&feature=related
Part 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoBM_PHmlaQ&NR=1

Another one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCsJ37Fq1GM&feature=related

Nin wrote:

Edwards interviews!

Part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCA9DEIRdZI&feature=related
Part 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhiLdHzqDks&feature=related
Part 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoBM_PHmlaQ&NR=1

Another one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCsJ37Fq1GM&feature=related

Thanks for that Nin! I think Edward's too is a very strong possibility. He may even have used some of Bujoks sayings and writings to point the finger at him.... What do ya think?

Surprised he wasn't bringing up the Zodiac if he knew anything about it. Did the guy who fingered him as Z ever speak to him? If so what did Edwards say?

bentley wrote:

Surprised he wasn't bringing up the Zodiac if he knew anything about it. Did the guy who fingered him as Z ever speak to him? If so what did Edwards say?

In his report, John Cameron included some letters written by Edwards while he (Edwards) was incarcerated last year. In one letter, Edwards questioned why Cameron believed he was Z. I don't have it in front of me, but it was something like, "I don't know why John thinks I was the Zodiac."

Edit: Actually, he said he didn't know why Cameron thought he killed Ramsey. He stated that he didn't want to talk about Zodiac over the phone and was going to comment on it after his April 2011 hearing. Don't know what the outcome was.

bentley wrote:

Surprised he wasn't bringing up the Zodiac if he knew anything about it. Did the guy who fingered him as Z ever speak to him? If so what did Edwards say?

John Cameron was able to build a good relationship to Edwards. My understanding is that after he pinned Edwards to more crimes ( which this year Edwards did admit as we know) he started to ask him about the Zodiac crimes. Edward supposedly confessed to John multiple times to be the Zodiac. However, he was not ready to talk about it according to John. John Cameron was eventually able to schedule an interview with Edwards in the penetentiary. However, Edwrads passed away just shortly prior to
giving the interview. I understand Edwrads left many tapes to the family. Content is unknown at this time. I recall though that Edwrads' family is ready to cooperate regarding those tapes.

-Nin

Kevin B wrote:

..

Thanks for that Nin! I think Edward's too is a very strong possibility. He may even have used some of Bujoks sayings and writings to point the finger at him.... What do ya think?

Here is what I think. If you read Edward's book, you will find clues over clues pertaing to the Zodiac case. One of these clues is in the first chapter after the foreword and the intro chapter titled "A Page Of History" (it was just about his birth and his family..not history....) is this:

Edwards is sent to the catholic Parmadale Orphanage in Oarma, Ohio, when he is 7 years old. The third paragraph of this chapter "The Making Of A Criminal" (he was made a criminal, ya know..) starts with"Hello, Ed...My name is sister Agnes Marie. ..." from that time on Edwrads was beaten by the nuns and punished regularly for being a bed wetter (Get it pi = PEE !!! PEE K -A-BOO! The K in the original version of the HC is clearly darker then the other letter! PEE K -A -BOO M virtually. Every time Ed peed in bed he would get it boom! punishment!)
and for trying to escape the orphanage over and over. They would place him in the yard hugging a tree. Older boys would hold him in place and everyone else would kick and beat him, including the nuns.

Edwards was trying to be "the best crook ever" based on this early life experience.

If you are looking for something that may resemble the HC symbol, look at this aerial of the orphanage surronded by cottages the kids would live in:



That IS what I think.

-Nin

If you look at some of the comments here, it seems like what Edwards wrote about his experience at the orphanage was true.

http://www.parmadalegoldenyears.com/forum/


I just found a post there that alludes to Edwards and his book.

Quote :

From: Chet
Timeline: 40s and/or 50s
Sometime around 1977 or 1978 I was loaned a book written by a former resident of Parmadale who was there possibly during the 40s and/or 50s. I do not remember the name of the book or the author; the book was an autobiography. I believe the author was from Akron or Cuyahoga Falls or the surrounding area. He was a friend of the lady that loaned the book to me. This lady's son was a best friend of the author. The author considered the lady (Genevieve "Gennie" Grome) his Mom since he stayed with the Grome's quite often.

Prior to writing the book the author got crossways with the law and ended up spending time in prison. Eventually he rehabilitated himself and wrote the book. The last contact I had with Mrs. Grome was back in the late 80s or early 90s. I asked her how the author was doing to which she explained he was back in prison.

I have been trying to find the author and the book to no avail. Mrs. Grome passed away a number of years ago so I have been unable to contact her.

Any info you can provide will be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Post Date: December 6, 2009

A few posts from that site. How awful it must have been for many of them

Quote :

From: TheyDo
Timeline: 1961-1963
My name is Sandy Cicero Robins. I just found this website and have been reading as many of the other stories as possible from 1961-1963. This was the time when I was sent to live in Parmadale before going into foster care for a few years. I was always jealous of my three brothers (Bill, Ron & Sam Cicero) who at least got to see each other more often. My experience in Parmadale with the "sisters of charity" turned me against believing in a kind and loving God until I found sobriety in 1981. Parmadale was all about the punishing "God is going to get you if you don't...blah blah blah." It was usually the nuns, not God. Having other children, on command from the nun, hold you down on her lap, with your pants down, to be spanked while the other children watched was terrifing and humiliating. Ron used to sing a song to the theme of Nancy Sinatra: "These witches are going to get you."

I have shared my story in the book "They Do Remember: a story of soul survival" which is available at Amazon and Barnes and Noble.

We don't get over it...We do get through it!
Sandy Cicero Robins

Post Date: December 28, 2009

Quote :

From: Don Shearer
Timeline: '39 to '44
Having spent five years at Parmadale, beginning with Baby Cottage and then continuing to Cottage 10, I am amazed at the stories I have read on this site. Outside of Sr. Vera in Cottage 10, who went overboard on her discipline, I remember none of these other incidents happening to any of the other boys. My two brothers have different memories than me, but one was in Cottage 10 with me, so I know he made up most of what he talked about. It seems to me it's the same old story about being raised in an orphange, the "poor me" syndrome. Believe me, as you get older nobody cares, they've got their set of problems. And try telling the person at the checkout counter about your poor upbringing - outside of, "Gee, that's too bad," you still have to pay the bill. I have always strived to live for today and put yesterday in the back recesses of my mind. I have been successful in doing that, and I'm a happier person. Let's try not to blame all our failings on some poor little nun. As far as I'm concerned, Parmadale was my home, and I have fond memories of it. Sorry if I have offended anyone, but those are my honest feelings.
dshearer321@zoominternet.net

Post Date: January 3, 2010

Quote :

From: Andrew Walzer
Timeline: 1954
.................When I was six the nuns used to scream from upstairs because some of the kids were loud. Then they would come down where we were and line all of us up. Most of the kids had done nothing wrong. Each child would be forced to hold his hand out palm side up to be beaten with a wooden board. When you flinched and pulled your hand back you had to turn your hand over and be beaten on the knuckles. Parmadale was a true hellhole for myself and the other children with me. I am 60 years old now and the pain and humiliation has not been forgotten. They even slapped us in the face while we were eating. These nuns should have all gone to jail. Most of the kids wet the bed because we were always scared to death. To prove I was there, a few notes. We would always play marbles out on the grounds. Every Sunday we would sit in a room watching TV waiting for visitors to come. I know because I waited every Sunday for a year and my father never came back for me. Every year they would take us to Cedar Point. At Christmas we picked a gift from a catalog.Do you have the honesty and decency to post this review or do you want to hide the truth about this Catholic orphanage that was supposed to take care of kids. Instead they abused us.

Post Date: December 21, 2008

Quote :

From: Frank
Timeline: 1959-1961
..........Message for Andrew Walzer: Andrew, I feel that pain although my time was good after I left Cottage (stalag) 14 Sr. Petra's torture chamber. I like you was a victim of a brutal beating for nothing ordered by Sr. Petra,Richard Olson who was a big guy was instructed to beat me or have the rest of the cottage beat him. I also witnessed on kid get his face slapped so hard that all the capillaries broke, he looked like a road map, then the radiator brush came out. If she is deceased I hope her soul is burning in hell for what she's done, but not every nun was like that. I have moved beyond what happened there to me in the short time I was stuck in Cottage 14 through the help of therapy I suggest the same for you. I cannot forget what happened to me I am able to deal with it now and I hope you will be able to do the same. Best of Luck.
Frank DeCarlo
Class of 1961

Post Date: February 14, 2009

I wonder if Edwards was referring to SR. AnnaMarie(Sacristan)?

Quote :

From: MJMileca1
Timeline: 1966 - 1968
...............Hi Kevin: To answer your question regarding what Nuns were assigned to what Cottages. I have some memory of a majority of the Nuns at PD and their cottages. Actually it appears that I have way to much memory of these Ladies! Lets see if anyone can correct me. This would be for 1966 - 1968: C3, Sr Laborae(Patricia Gardner) & Sr Michael Ann(Julie Zales also 4th Grade Teacher), C4/Hospital Cottage, Sr Helen(Nurse Nun) & Sr, Conise w/her dog(i have no idea wha tthis Nun's job was, I only remember her walking around with her dog following her everywhere), C5, Sr Tomacine & Sr Mary Leo, C6 Sr Bernadette(Sr PaulaMarie took over when Bernadette was ill), C8, Sr Pauline, C9 Sr Mary James & Sr Dorthea(Purchasing Nun), C10, Sr Rose(Agnes Stipkat) & Sr. EllenPatrice(Social Worker), C11, Sr Myra, C12, Sr ThreseAnn & Sr Allen, C13, Sr Mary Grace & Sr Mary Gerard(7th Grade Teacher), C14, Sr Louis Mary(Mary O'Grady) & Sr Ida(Marie Weire), C16, Sr Petra(Norma Gabenner) & Sr Jerome(2nd Grade Teacher), C18, Sr Mary Henry & Sr Ann Therese and C20, Mr John Abraham & Mr Mike McGraw. Convent, Sr. Vernard(Kitchen), Sr Mary Therese/Superior(Threse Calley), Sr Evenly Marie(Sr Therese's secretary), Sr Madaline(old), Sr Mary Ellen, Sr Gregory, Sr. Bernadine, Sr Norberta, Sr. Prescilla(3rd Grade), Sr Falice(School Principal), Sr Michael Marie(Black Accounting Nun), Sr AnnaMarie(Sacristan), Sr Benigna(always nicer than she looked), Sr Julia(wore a gray sun visor over her eyes and tinted glasses), Sr DeMontfort(Head Social Worker Nun), Sr Irene(laundry Building Nun). I also remember a Mr Bonza who was a lay teacher in the Junior High part of the school and Mr Joe Ozeski who assisted with the boys sports. Lastly Miss Barb assisted witht he girls sports and is now an Ursuline Nun doing Physical Therapy at the Ursuline MotherHouse in Pepper Pike, Ohio.

Post Date: September 7, 2008

Nin, I think Edward's looks a lot like the Sonoma composite. What say you? Edwards has the same lips, eyes, and frow but his ears were a lot bigger than the Zodiac composite. Similar hairline too! That frow in the forhead... He was one dangerous man! Smart, cunning...psychopath!

I'm still waiting to hear more on Bujok. People are searching at the Montana Historical society for the performance lists at the Deer Lodge, Prison theater. I hope The Mikado was played there. I also hope Scott (Don's nephew) gets back with an ok on some pictures. Don's sister is his mother and both his dad and mom are ill....

Kevin B wrote:

Nin, I think Edward's looks a lot like the Sonoma composite. What say you? Edwards has the same lips, eyes, and frow but his ears were a lot bigger than the Zodiac composite. Similar hairline too! That frow in the forhead... He was one dangerous man! Smart, cunning...psychopath!

I'm still waiting to hear more on Bujok. People are searching at the Montana Historical society for the performance lists at the Deer Lodge, Prison theater. I hope The Mikado was played there. I also hope Scott (Don's nephew) gets back with an ok on some pictures. Don's sister is his mother and both his dad and mom are ill....

The Sonoma sketch is based on an Artists' interpretation of what Z looked like, and NOT on an eye witness account.

morf13 wrote:

Kevin B wrote:

Nin, I think Edward's looks a lot like the Sonoma composite. What say you? Edwards has the same lips, eyes, and frow but his ears were a lot bigger than the Zodiac composite. Similar hairline too! That frow in the forhead... He was one dangerous man! Smart, cunning...psychopath!

I'm still waiting to hear more on Bujok. People are searching at the Montana Historical society for the performance lists at the Deer Lodge, Prison theater. I hope The Mikado was played there. I also hope Scott (Don's nephew) gets back with an ok on some pictures. Don's sister is his mother and both his dad and mom are ill....

The Sonoma sketch is based on an Artists' interpretation of what Z looked like, and NOT on an eye witness account.

I know that but take the Sonoma composite like I did and put it over the wanted poster composite and it's basically the same thing but with a more realistic nose and no glasses... I think the artist tried making it look more like a person than a cartoon. I have read it was from a composite of a man that tried to abduct a girl in Sonoma? I could very well be wrong though. What say you?

Some interesting dates re Edward Wayne Edwards:


Edwards got married on July 4th 1968.

The Orphanage where Edwards was mistreated and which created an everlasting hate towards the catholic church and the orphanage itself was founded SEPTEMBER 27, 1925! The orphanage was founded as Parmadale Children’s Village of St. Vincent de Paul.

You have to read the book to understand how disgusted and heartbroken Edwards felt about his 5 year stay at the institution. The comments posted by tracers reflect upon the misuse and mistreatment experienced by individuals who have lived at the Orphanage.

I find it peculiar that the namegiver of the institution, the saint Vincent de Paul (24 April 1581 – 27 September 1660), was taken captive by Turkish pirates, who brought him to Tunis and sold him into slavery. After converting his owner to Christianity, Vincent de Paul escaped in 1607.

If Edwards was the Zodiac, the paradice/slaves context would get a whole other meaning, mainly a description of what the catholic church was all about to him!

I am starting to see a development here...

Also, according to Edwards book he had his first lecture, initiated through his parole officer, at the University of Akron shortly after he got married. So that would be shortly after July 4th of 1968. On the same day he held his first lecture he met a professor of Sociology and Criminology at the University, Dr Carl Bersani, who suggested to Edwards to write a book about his experiences. After this first speech and his conversation with the professor Edwards started his statewide lecture program. He had to get written permission from his parole officer whenever planning to leave Ohio. Which he did.
He then lectured to schools, churches,orphanages,police academies,lawyers' organizations,Kiwanis and Rotary clubs and various universities - statewide!

-Nin