The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok

Bates murder could have been discussed at the prison. Perhaps someone with vivid imagination took that and decided to continue that "work".
Since the police most likely would look for a suspect without an alibi ,perhaps being an inmate at Deer Lodge would slip them through that net?
Though perhaps in that case Zodiac should had claimed Bates much earlier. 7/31/69 is the first confirmed Zodiac communication.
I think Bates might be a Zodiac victim. But im open for any suggestion.
We do have different witness descriptions. We have (in my mind) very different tone in different letters. Suggesting to me that it could be multiple authors at least. Perhaps not writers. And as far as Badlands, Excorcist, Red Phantom for example, I ALWAYS thought it to be wierd that he wrote about the violence as something bad. That he attacked Count Marco. (Zodiac dont seem to be much of a womens right protector). The excorcist wasn´t perhaps written entirely as Bujoks Excorcist letter. But the fact that he mocks the supernatural doesn´t really say that he didn´t believe in that.
Bujok also wrote about hunting humans/cartoonviolence, Criminals should be put to death/Murdered a sheriff.
Either he had double personalites or he wrote them exactly as Zodiac did for fun. (Or Zodiac had the same split personality.) Or a 1000 other reasons.
Though Edwards or Dryman using Bujok as the scapegoat would also make sense. Though an alibi could have ruined that and most likely cast more suspicion at the one man benefitting of such an attempt to cast suspicion at Bujok. The man that wrote about him.

The main reason many of us think Bates could be a Z victim was because a handwriting expert said that writing in her case matched Zodiac's. (Desktop poem, and BATES HAD TO DIE letters). Once a link between Z & Bates hit the news, Z took credit for it. Question is, did he really have anything to do with Bates, or did he just want credit for an easy kill that people already were blaming on him? It is all based on the writing experts. I am no writing expert, but would like to think, or at least hope, that they were correct in their findings.

To me, there has always been some connection to Southern CA with Zodiac. I cant put my finger on it exactly, but if we look at some various crimes down there with Z-like clues, then that could certainly make Z a suspect, and possibly rule out some of these Deer Lodge guys as suspects.


I dont want to take this off topic, but there are definitely some southern CA crimes that may be the work of Z, and some of these crimes happened while some(or all) of the Deer Lodge guys were in prison.

BEACH ATTACKS-
June,1963- Domingos/Edwards murders in the Gaviota Beach area between Santa Barbara and Lompoc. Victims attacked with gun, a .22, also knife and rope uesd. Beach setting. Female forced to tie up male- No rape or robbery (very similar to the Berryessa crime years later)

February,1964- Joyce & Johnny Swindle, murdered on a beach with .22 An item or two was taken, but police think that it was done as an afterthought, or perhaps to make it look like robbery. No rape. This location is over 200 miles from the D/E murders, but there are some similarities.

June, 1970- Cemetary Beach in Santa Barbara, Fiances John Hood and Sandra Garcia, the couple was stabbed to death on a blanket on the beach. The couple was not robbed, and the female was not raped. This crime scene is near the D/E crime scene.

There are military bases pretty close to each of these murders. The similarities are pretty interesting. I had found a suspect, who in 1965 at the age of 19, had shot a lone male soldier with a .22 as the soldier walked on the beach. That location was in Seal Beach, CA. Seal Beach is about 120 miles from Santa Barbara. Seal Beach is about 100 miles from San Diego. Seal Beach is right in the middle of both Santa Barbara, and San Diego. This suspect, although his criems were in southern CA, was sentenced to serve time in Vacaville. Vacaville is near Vallejo. The soldier did not die, and the man that shot him had his charges reduced and dropped down, and he was released after not serving alot of time. After getting out of prison, this man used addresses in Vallejo. Tahoe helped me look into this guy, but we could not find a ton of info. I do know that he was at least 6 ft tall, and weighed over 200 lbs. Anybody living in Vallejo that had previously shot any people on a beach should be considered as a Z suspect in my opinion.

'Car Trouble' attacks in southern CA-

October, 1966- Riverside City College, Cheri Jo Bates is attacked. She is stabbed to death but not raped or robbed. Her attacker disabled her car and pretended to be a good samaritan.

November,1967- In the Van Nuys area, several women are attacked by a man who signalled them to pull over by indicating that their tire was loose. The M.O was almost identical to the attacker of Kathleen Johns. These attacks happened about 80 miles from the Bates attack. The attacker used multiple cars in the attacks, and was described as being in his mid 20's, about 6ft1, and medium build with brown hair. If we move forward to the date of the Johns attack, this attacker would be about the same age as Johns' attacker. If you have not read this thread, please do, it is fascinating, and almost a mirror image of the Johns attack, here is a link:
https://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t49-almost-identical-to-the-johns-case

January,1970- In Ventura, CA (about 70 miles away from the attacks I posted above, and about 125 miles from the Bates attack) Cindy Lee Mellin, a young store employee vanishes after closing outside of the store she worked at. Witnesses report seeing a man that was about 30-40 with her. He was changing her tire. The next day, they found that her tire was punctured with a knife, and that the attacker came back as a 'good samaritan' offering to help, like Kathleen Johns and Cheri Jo Bates.

Some of these crimes are very Z-like and shouldnt be ignored, and again, some of these happened while the Deer Lodge guys were in prison.

Does anyone know what Edwards' nickname was in jail? Was it BIG ED perhaps?

-Nin

I think it was Zodiac, but I'm not certain

Big Zed apparently

Nin wrote:

Does anyone know what Edwards' nickname was in jail? Was it BIG ED perhaps?

-Nin

CAPTAIN ED?

-Nin

He says he knows nothing of the Bujok's of Montana.... Whether he is telling the truth or lying, your guess is as good as mine... Thanks Morph for the help!

Kevin B wrote:

He says he knows nothing of the Bujok's of Montana.... Whether he is telling the truth or lying, your guess is as good as mine... Thanks Morph for the help!

No problem. By the way, I found a listing in the 1968 Vallejo Directory for last name BUJAK....close, but no cigar

Well, you never know, Morf. One Polk I looked in listed Bobbie Ramos and her husband Victor as Bobbie and Victor Ramas. Was the directory you speak of a Polk?

morf13 wrote:

Kevin B wrote:

He says he knows nothing of the Bujok's of Montana.... Whether he is telling the truth or lying, your guess is as good as mine... Thanks Morph for the help!

No problem. By the way, I found a listing in the 1968 Vallejo Directory for last name BUJAK....close, but no cigar

Give me the number. When I was doing my family tree I found different spellings for the last name Gordon..... I found Gordon. Gordan, gorden... Of course that was 1865. Could be they may have wanted no one to know because of Bujoks past....

Over on ZK.com, somebody wrote "fyi- donald bujak was paroled out out M.S.P. Dec. 17, 1968"
Is this true?? That would be absolutely incredible if it is if we add that to everything else with Bujok. Until I see proof, I have to hold off on believing it.

Yes, I spotted that. A gunman serving time in Deer Lodge who had an addiction to writing letters to the editor is paroled only 3 days before the first Z murders - I'd like to see more proof of this but it is certainly intriguing.

I can just see Dryman telling him, "when you get out of here, I've got a nice place down in the Bay area you can visit any time..."

morf13 wrote:

Over on ZK.com, somebody wrote "fyi- donald bujak was paroled out out M.S.P. Dec. 17, 1968"
Is this true?? That would be absolutely incredible if it is if we add that to everything else with Bujok. Until I see proof, I have to hold off on believing it.

Very reliable source, Tim Spencer, who posted the infor about Bujok ( funny he misspelled Bujak..):

http://www.zodiackiller.com/EWE.html

Nin wrote:

morf13 wrote:

Over on ZK.com, somebody wrote "fyi- donald bujak was paroled out out M.S.P. Dec. 17, 1968"
Is this true?? That would be absolutely incredible if it is if we add that to everything else with Bujok. Until I see proof, I have to hold off on believing it.

Very reliable source, Tim Spencer, who posted the infor about Bujok ( funny he misspelled Bujak..):

http://www.zodiackiller.com/EWE.html

So the guy that verified when he was paroled was the same gut that investigated Edwards as being Zodiac. Wow, that timing, is really, really powerful.

Nin wrote:

morf13 wrote:

Over on ZK.com, somebody wrote "fyi- donald bujak was paroled out out M.S.P. Dec. 17, 1968"
Is this true?? That would be absolutely incredible if it is if we add that to everything else with Bujok. Until I see proof, I have to hold off on believing it.

Very reliable source, Tim Spencer, who posted the infor about Bujok ( funny he misspelled Bujak..):

http://www.zodiackiller.com/EWE.html

Couldnt say it better, a guy that loved writing letters to the editor, was at Deer Lodge, and got parolled 3 days before Lake Herman Rd, is incredible, may be the biggest Z coincidence yet. (or maybe its not) WOW!

morf13 wrote:

Couldnt say it better, a guy that loved writing letters to the editor, was at Deer Lodge, and got parolled 3 days before Lake Herman Rd, is incredible, may be the biggest Z coincidence yet. (or maybe its not) WOW!

...and sent a joke card with the word BOO in it - Boo-joke?

Kevin B wrote:

morf13 wrote:

Kevin B wrote:

He says he knows nothing of the Bujok's of Montana.... Whether he is telling the truth or lying, your guess is as good as mine... Thanks Morph for the help!

No problem. By the way, I found a listing in the 1968 Vallejo Directory for last name BUJAK....close, but no cigar

Give me the number. When I was doing my family tree I found different spellings for the last name Gordon..... I found Gordon. Gordan, gorden... Of course that was 1865. Could be they may have wanted no one to know because of Bujoks past....

I will give it to you tonight, or post it tonight.

Actually here it is, from the 1967 NOT 1968 Vallejo phone book:
BUJAK INC. 643-8601
For what its worth, I searched Vallejo & Solano county ancestry.com records, and found ZERO in the way of records for last name BUJOK or BUJAK, yet it was in the 1967 phone book.

And dont forget, Karel BUJOK in the 1968 Alameda County book.

In 1964, the 643-8601 ph# was associated with a house building company located at 102 Broadway in Vallejo. Not sure that phone # belonged to the same business in 1967.

Nin wrote:

morf13 wrote:

Over on ZK.com, somebody wrote "fyi- donald bujak was paroled out out M.S.P. Dec. 17, 1968"
Is this true?? That would be absolutely incredible if it is if we add that to everything else with Bujok. Until I see proof, I have to hold off on believing it.

Very reliable source, Tim Spencer, who posted the infor about Bujok ( funny he misspelled Bujak..):

http://www.zodiackiller.com/EWE.html

I verified it 100%!!!!!!!!!!

Parole – Board decision – 12-17-68 The parolde board decision was made 12/17/68, I dont know if it means that he walked out of prison that day, or in the next couple days, but that is 100% Incredible!!!!!!!!

morf13 wrote:

Nin wrote:

morf13 wrote:

Over on ZK.com, somebody wrote "fyi- donald bujak was paroled out out M.S.P. Dec. 17, 1968"
Is this true?? That would be absolutely incredible if it is if we add that to everything else with Bujok. Until I see proof, I have to hold off on believing it.

Very reliable source, Tim Spencer, who posted the infor about Bujok ( funny he misspelled Bujak..):

http://www.zodiackiller.com/EWE.html

I verified it 100%!!!!!!!!!!

Parole – Board decision – 12-17-68 The parolde board decision was made 12/17/68, I dont know if it means that he walked out of prison that day, or in the next couple days, but that is 100% Incredible!!!!!!!!

Wow, good job, morf!! Very peculiar date indeed.

-Nin

Wow - wonder where he was paroled to? I think the next job is to find some handwriting of his...

That'd be some quick steppin' to CA to commit double homicide. Not impossible, but probable?

Quagmire wrote:

Wow - wonder where he was paroled to? I think the next job is to find some handwriting of his...

Good question, I would think possibly to his parents house in MT. I doubt they would knowingly allow him to leave state. And I just talked to a woman who got me all the info on Bujok, he apprently DID walk out of prison on 12/17/68!

tahoe27 wrote:

That'd be some quick steppin' to CA to commit double homicide. Not impossible, but probable?

100% speculation on my part, but what if the BUJAK I found in the Vallejo directory was really spelled BUJOK, and was a relative. Perhaps he lined up a job there, and went there with permission to work. Not sure if we can determine this.

morf13 wrote:

tahoe27 wrote:

That'd be some quick steppin' to CA to commit double homicide. Not impossible, but probable?

100% speculation on my part, but what if the BUJAK I found in the Vallejo directory was really spelled BUJOK, and was a relative. Perhaps he lined up a job there, and went there with permission to work. Not sure if we can determine this.

Very possible. We would then have Dryman with family in CA and Bujok possibly having family in the Vallejo area, if this was to be proven. According to the Cameron report, Edward's aunt lives closed to where Stine was killed, and his female cousin lived close to where Zodiac got into the cab!

Here is something that about throw me off the chair today. According to morf'd scanned penitentiary documents:


Bujok:

No marks, no scars

Ed Edwards:

No marks, no scars

Frank Dryman: (bold mine)

Scar above right eye, Dim scar bridge of nose, Dim “F” tattooed on right cheek, numerous scars, inside left wrist, numerous dim scars left thumb, numerous scars both knees, Dim scar right elbow, Blotch scar back of right wrist, also inside right wrist. 1 ½ inch scar back of right hand, scar right side of upper lip, Blotch scar left buttocks. Tatoos: A DOT center of forehead, numerous tattoos entire body, an automatic full size left shoulderblade.

1.Could scars have been mistaken for acne scars by Kathleen Johns?

2.The HC symbol. Look at the right side of the symbol, an F ('Dim “F” tattooed on right cheek'). The dots. Could one of the dots be Dryman? L + F, LEE and FRANK?
Speculation, yes. Interesting? Yes.

Or, the HC symbol are 2 folks PLUS Zodiac?? LEE + FRANK + ZODIAC (EDWARDS?) It does not neccessarily mean they worked together as a team. It may mean Zodiac is commemorating his buddies here and they had to guess who their secret pal was?

I understand the card was sent to Paul Avery and he feared it was a direct thread towards himself. However, Kathleen Johns claims she got a very similar card and mailed it to Avery.
Why would she have gotten the same card to begin with if the card was to be to frighten Paul? So there could be more to it.