Gareth Penn

Not sure if Zam ever asked Penn here or not.

I have a general question regarding Penn...and maybe a couple people that think he may have been Zodiac can fill me in.
I should also warn you that, a few years back, I read some stuff on Penn(not sure how accurate it was), and I was interested in Penn for a hot minute. I looked at alot of things about him (all circumstantial), and decided he wasnt a good candidate for Zodiac in my opinion.

* His writing didnt look even CLOSE to Zodiac

*He looked like a guy that would weigh around 160-170 lbs, not the stocky, barrel chested type as described by people, or the 200+ lbs that NAPA thought Z weighed based on his Wingwalher tracks.

* Ken Narlow told me that he directly looked at Penn briefly, and that Penn came into Ken's office spouting off and talking gibberish, and they finally asked him to leave...not a very promisong POI in my opinion.

Anyhow, these were my own personal opinions on why I didnt like Penn as Z.

Somehow, I think I missed something here. For the people that think Penn could be Z, what exactly is that based on? Not theories, or formulas, but what hard facts and details are there to make you think he could be Z?

Do you have writing samples that look like Z? Can he be placed at a crime scene at the time of a Z murder? Did he own the same model guns used by Zodiac? Etc

I will sit back, and see what you guys have to say. Thanks

Morf,

I think that those that subscribe to the Gareth Penn as Zodiac theory (at least on this message board and maybe one other) actually believe he was part of a two-man team. So I guess that could potentially explain the handwriting, etc.

Bblanco wrote:

Morf,

I think that those that subscribe to the Gareth Penn as Zodiac theory (at least on this message board and maybe one other) actually believe he was part of a two-man team. So I guess that could potentially explain the handwriting, etc.

Thats definitely a possibility. Like to hear more about this stuff.

This is a good start to read for anyone. 8 pages with alot of information.
http://weeklyscientist.blogspot.com/2009/10/with-malice-aforethought.html

If we concentrate on the part of Gareths childhood, at least I can see some intresting stuff.
In his blog http://gz4216.blogspot.com/, Gareth writes that Mike has it all wrong etc.
And that he was a happy kid.
I put my trust in Mike on this subject.
One smart kid living with a mother that divorce his father, she takes him to hs new stepfather that is leaving him at knifes edge for the rest of the time living there.
His mother "abandoning him" (going to mental care) leaving Gareth in the care of his stepfather.
Quote from Mikes (since I believe that Mikes have the most easy accessed information source if anyone is intrested in getting some background about Penn.)

When she met him, Jean Sewell’s soon-to-be second husband—a dull-witted but stably-employed railroad worker named Miles Archibald Standish—lived with his widower father Archie Miles Standish in a house “where they sealed off the living room so they wouldn’t have to clean it,” Penn writes. Moving into this dark place, “the first thing my mother did was to open up the living room. It was full of dead bats” that “had come down the chimney…starved to death…and then dried up like little mummies….The dead bats kind of set the tone for the next eleven years.”
Eleven years with a man Penn describes as a classic boor, a Steinbeckian-Dickensian hybrid, perfectly lethal to Jean Sewell’s artistic disposition—and her son’s emotional well-being.

“One day, I was playing with the cocker spaniel, and I guess Miles thought I was being too rough,” Penn writes. “Suddenly, I was on my back, and he was pounding me in the face with his fists, yelling ‘See how you like it!’ I got a bloody nose, a split lip, and the inside of my mouth was bleeding where it had been pounded into a tooth. For the next eleven years, he and I were at swords’ point every waking minute.”

At 18, Penn left for college, but life back home got worse. His mother ran away to Monterrey and into the arms of an inner demon—“a disembodied spirit named Ace,” Penn explains, “who talked to her though a Ouija board.”
Ace encouraged his mistress to send out “lengthy handwritten letters exposing Miles as the ringleader of a homosexual conspiracy whose purpose was world domination"

Another quote:
"All the litigation doesn't surprise a close family friend, who spoke on condition of anonymity. Dysfunctional family drama went back many years. "Gareth's stepfather Miles physically abused and humiliated him," the friend said. "Gareth developed a nasty temper and can be ruthless and vindictive in creative ways for all manner of slights. He's a bully."



Artillery surveyor, cryptographer.
Letters to editors. Including the need to correct trivial things.
Mikado.
Norse
Inserted himself into the case.
His contact with a relatives to one of the victims.( If it is to believe Joan Webster was a Zodiac victim.)
His unwillingness to contribute in at any forum (though im not that certain he isnt registred somewhere under an alias.)
His affair with Madeleine Borges—went to high school with one of thoose victims, David Faraday. Her aunt, Stella Borges Medeiros discovered Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen.
Perhaps Mr Penn is trying his best to find out eho the Zodiac was/is as the rest of us.
Having things in common with the Zodiac can explain the interest in the case. Im not saying anyone with Gareths characteristics is the Zodiac.
All im saying is that I feel he is intresting and I would like to know as much as possible about him and the things surrounding him and O´Hare.
That in combination to writing to Harry Martin and making fun of his choice of suspect.
Actually he destroys Martin in those letters.
That in combination with him trying to convince the D.A that Paradiso was the wrong man charged.
If he was that concerned about the victims he proberly could have dedicated at least one page in Times 17.
On the other side if he didnt want anyone to get credit for his kills, that also would fit.
Theres lots and lots of more information that is intresting in my opinion.
He also was a member of Society for Creative Anachronism, a medieval re-enactment group.
That isnt criminal. But dressing up in a zodiac-hood and stabbing people is.

By the way, Gareth was very charming and civil on his new blog.
Take that into contrast to what he commented on Mike Martins Weekly Scientist.


(Gareth Penn)
You are a bottomless pit of substance-less cavils. Either you are incredibly dense, or you are up to something so devious I can't fathom it. And I don't care to.

The kindest thing I can think of to say about you is that you're a time waster, and as long as it's your time that is getting wasted, I don't care.

I have better things to do with mine. Your lies swarm around you like flies around a pile of shit, which is one reason why I will never have anything to do with you again.

Has Penn ever been convicted of a crime? A felony? A misdemeanor?

Any history of actual violence?

To my knowledge the answer to these questions is "no".

AK Wilks wrote:

Has Penn ever been convicted of a crime? A felony? A misdemeanor?

Any history of actual violence?

To my knowledge the answer to these questions is "no".

Until the person is caught, there is never a history. Then when people start to dig, they find stuff...not that I think Oenn was Z, but as with most suspects, you never really know anything about them until you get all the facts out

Thats right. Is there a need for such a record to be a person of interest?
There is a high probability that a serial killer would have a earlier record of crimes.
But there isnt a need to have one.
I got in the records 34 years old. Didnt mean I didnt do anything before that haha.
There are many variations on serial killers. Some are sloppy, some are tidy.
And by the way I also believe Ted would be the perfect match for being the Zodiac.
Keep up the good work.
Saw they are going to sell out his ciphered diarys.

Depends - BTK was clean record until caught.

But many other serial killers have exhibited some prior crimes, peeping, assaults - and/or shown what FBI profiler John Douglas calls the "homicidial trilogy" : Torture of animals, fire starting and/or bed wetting into teens.

NOTE: THE FOLLOWING POST IS OPINION ONLY AND DOES NOT REFLECT THE VIEWS OF THIS BOARD. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT MR. O'HARE WAS THE ZODIAC AND HE HAS NEVER BEEN CONVICTED OF ANY CRIME OR EVEN ACCUSED BY POLICE OF ANY CRIME. THIS BOARD ALLOWS FOR THE PRESENTATION AND DEBATE OF DIFFERENT THEORIES AND DOES NOT ENDORSE ANY. NONE OF THE OTHERS MENTIONED HERE WERE THE ZODIAC AND THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN CONVICTED OF ANY CRIME. MR. O'HARE IS ABOLSUTELY INNOCENT OF BEING ZODIAC OR DOING ANY OTHER CRIME BUT THIS MATTER HAS BEEN AND IS SUBJECT TO DEBATE AND DISCUSSION.


Hi morf13,

To clarify, my books say the Zodiac was four people:

1, Michael O'Hare, who was the "trigger man"; it is his face you see on the Zodiac WANTED posters, because he's the one who did the dirty deeds (or most of them, anyway);

2, Gareth Penn, who was the "PR man"; Mike Martin actually did a very good job of describing Gareth's role in the Zodiac Project in his recent post;

3, Berta Margoulies, who died March 20, 1996, Michael O'Hare's sculptor mother, who was probably the initial mastermind behind the murders; and

4, Hugh Penn, who died June 18, 1995, Gareth's father, whose background was crucial to the logistics of The Project.

Here's the problem: as my recent set-to with Tahoe27/Tracers/Solar Pons demonstrates, and as I suspect Mike Martin is aware of, my theory isn't particularly convincing when you're exposed to it a point at a time. Some people seem to have a natural affinity for puzzles and clues, but a lot of people don't, witness both Tahoe27 and Solar Pons complaining when I suggested they look at page 31 of Times 17 and tell me what doesn't make sense. Some people love that sort of challenge, but some find it exasperating.

In other words, as I said to Mike Martin above, I'm probably better-served by going on hiatus here for a week or two and then making a more elaborate presentation. I don't expect to convince everyone with it, but it will, at least, give people on the board a better idea where I'm coming from.

Ray Grant wrote:

To clarify, my books say the Zodiac was four people:

1, Michael O'Hare
2, Gareth Penn
3, Berta Margoulies
4, Hugh Penn

Ray:

Don't leave yet! Question: Where did these four meet?

I can't render an educated opinion about this theory, but I can say that I've never thought Penn's naming of O'Hare was as he described. Berta was at Berkeley on a Guggenheim Fellowship when Hugh and Jean lived there and Gareth was little (1940s). There's a picture of the three of them here:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_hOmtjKEUGJA/SpGP240WBLI/AAAAAAAAAaU/-ZoadS4Dtj4/s1600-h/Hugh_Jean_Gareth.jpg

Berta and Jean were amazingly similar women -- both artists, both well-regarded in their own rights.

Plus, there's the Girard Pessis connection -- Mike O'Hare's classmate at a small, elite high school (Bronx High School of Science) just happens to live above Gareth and Mary Ann on Webster Street in Berkeley right before the Vallejo murders started, pissing off Gareth and leading Gareth to muse that O'Hare partied with Pessis when he was in town? No way that's merely a coincidence.

But back to my original question. Do you have any idea how and where these four -- or any combination thereof -- may have met? I don't see that in your books, which are 20 years old. Any new ideas on how the four of them may have connected? Whether the theory is exactly correct or not isn't the only thing to glean from this. Any connection between these four could explain a lot of things.

Now I understand why Penn made the comment to me that Mike O'Hare (Irish name) was Polish - his mother was a Polish Jew, a Holocaust survivor.

Zodiac was NOT a Holocaust survivor or the son of a Holocaust survivor. No way. Zodiac used a "LUGER", the gun of the SS officers, Zodiac used Norse symbols and knew Norse language, talked of getting SLAVES.

Also NOTHING to indicate Zodiac had a Jewish heritage - nothing in his language or symbols speaks to that at all.

Thank you, AK....exactly!!!!

I didnt know they caught the Zodiac. They must have since you guys know who he is or isnt. Who was it?

...OK...Azazel...of all of the people who could be the Zodiac, or the "mastermind" behind the Zodiac crimes, does it make sense to you, that this woman, born in 1907, would have been it??

http://www.askart.com/askart/m/berta_ohare_margoulies/berta_ohare_margoulies.aspx


If so, what are you smoking?

I havent claimed that. Im intrested in learning all the information there is about Gareth and those connected to his writing.
A suggestion is that you focus on the things that you actually find intresting on this forum.

And I mean that respectfully. Let us dumb people get stuck in this thread. Dont worry about us.

x

x

Guys lets keep it on track and no insults.

In looking at this woman nothing says Zodiac!

I keep an open mind...perhaps Mr. Grant will post more in the next days and weeks...right now this is looking very thin.

Do you see my point about Zodiac probably not being a Holocaust survivor or son of a Holocaust survivor?

Absolutely, AK!!!!

I've been admittedly skeptical about alpha-numeric conversions and such used by Penn, however I do find the Pi to ZODIAC conversion compelling. Who gets credit for that discovery btw? I suppose a number cruncher or computer could calculate the number of names or words that could be made up from Pi, and that it's pretty unique that ZODIAC fits.

Could Zodiac have chosen his name because it fits Pi? Did he discover this himself or is it some obscure piece of information that math people learn in school? Did he learn of this after LHR & BRS?

AK Wilks wrote:

Guys lets keep it on track and no insults.

In looking at this woman nothing says Zodiac!

I keep an open mind...perhaps Mr. Grant will post more in the next days and weeks...right now this is looking very thin.

Do you see my point about Zodiac probably not being a Holocaust survivor or son of a Holocaust survivor?

Yes,lets get on track. I specifically posted today about acting civil, courteous, and professional.

Berta is old news.
Its all there in the second power or if its in Times 17.
But I dont have all the information so all I can say is there have been previous accusations.
Perhaps not being part of a 4-part team but other things.
Do I believe shes involved? Ofcourse not. Who the hell would believe that an old woman would be the mastermind?
She cant be dragged anywhere. Its different if people gets at least a male suspect rumour. GuyWH or that dude that found the hood in the radio or what-the-h..
Second, the info on this board stays on the board. Or at least should.
This still is the Gareth Penn thread. And Penn was the one accussing her.

This is cut from Opord.
rcepam wrote:
"Are you folks reading this "Second Power" manuscript?

Penn has stooped to a new low in his defamation of O'Hare. This is much lower than Times 17, because it adds a prurient element to his accusations.

If memory serves, several years ago Penn threatened Jake Wark with a lawsuit if he posted "Second Power" online. I don't know whether Penn was embarrassed or horrified at what he had written. The last two chapters back2good has posted, about "family values" are extremely distasteful. Here you have Penn accusing Michael O'Hare's mother, Berta Margoulies, of using him to "cuckold" his father Eugene. That means Penn is accusing O'Hare's mother of having an incestuous relationship with her son!

http://www.opordanalytical.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=87&t=420&p=11108&hilit=Berta#p11108

And one more thing. Lets all have fun here.
The Zodiac have been on the loose the last 40 years and I can bet you he aint never going to get caught.
(Theres a bet worth loosing by the way....)
There have been some harsh words flying around in every direction.
Even if we inside ourselves are evil deamons from hell, this board will function better if we all try to be as friendly as we can manage.

Thought I would interject some humor.

Yes, it's off topic - but Ray Grant, you bear quite a striking resemblance to Dr. Drew Pinsky! Or rather, he bears quite a striking resemblance to you!

Is it just me???