FAKE or REAL? Zodiac letters April May July 1978, 1986 and 1987

AK Wilks wrote:

This October 1987 letter is also seldom discussed. The handwriting seems less "Zodiac like" than the 1986 letter, to my unexpert eye. But it has a basic Zodiac look to it. The content seems uninspired, mostly old bits, and the stuff about the horror movie "The Car" may be a nod to past Z references to movies like "Most Dangerous Game", "Exorcist" and "Badlands". It feels fake to me...but some of the writing does seem to match.

Has anybody seen the film "The Car"? Anything Z like or interesting in that film?

What do people think? Anything stand out real or fake about this letter?



Zsearcher noted something interesting (a rare event, but I give credit where credit is due). At:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA87veEkvfM

About 6:13 in, this letter is shown with the envelope it came in, and it appears to have houses (?) drawn on it.

Can anyone do a screen capture and post that here?

I find this letter interesting because Darlene's sister received a letter around that time where the letter writer tells of a Halloween threat. VPD felt it was a fake. In the letter above, he mentions using a car as a weapon, I can't help but think about a young boy named Danny who's mother is Rose, ( No last name darn it ) They lived I believe at 101 Karen st in Martinez. ( For sure it was Martinez) I was doing a lot of research looking at news papers trying to find anything that rang of Zodiac. One was a young Boy named Eric Coy the other was this Danny. Danny was riding his bike, when a older man in a car that had a Utah license plate, ran into him. I would give anything to find that article again, but so far no luck . It was in the Contra Costa Times, before Jan 1990. I was not well organized and didn't write a date . It was later that I connected the license plate to ( you guessed it )my poi. He had blue/white car that looked like a old Lincoln with a Utah plate 043 HPY or close to that . I remember the HPY because it made me think of Hippie. Perhaps Seagull or TF can find the C. C. Times article ? I have asked the people at the news paper there, if they ever did a story about a hit and run with the names I have mentioned ? I also called Martinez PD no luck. I did look for who owned the house and rented it out to Rose, no luck there either.So the bottom line here is, I think that this letter about "the car" could very well be real, also the April 78 letter .Toschi by the way, never wrote any letters trying to make it look like Zodiac wrote them! He wrote fan letters, none were signed like the Z had done.

Wasn't one of the unsolved Cali murders victims killed struck on Valentines Day and left for dead on the street? Maybe it was not Valentines day. I have logged so many murders on my maps, I forgot. I really should graph each unsolved out for easy reference to the cause of death,mo ,weapons,etc. It would be nice right now to pull up that case. Anyways, I do recall a car used as a weapon in few cases, and mind you , LE did not share all the letters,notesmcards,etc, untill years later. Had all Zodiac letters(hoax or not) been posted, then maybe the real Z would have let us know which were fakes. I believe, they withheld letters he demanded get posted, thus, he kept changing his MO and frequency of the kills. Zodiac, IMHO, killed several hundred women. As I track the unsolved and missing, its possible, that when he claimed 100 he actually had 100. I am confident, that there never was a ZODIAC letter hoaxer. All works appear to me to be of one man with the ability to change up and many letters change up in the letters themselves of which were authenticated. None the less, every letter should be considered . Zodiac really was a killer.... I will choose to evaluate every possible piece of evidence. Yet I am still a noob.

TimeCop, A woman waring a red dress killed on Valentines day, I think was on Highway 5 near Sacramento ? It was thought to be a I -5 killer victim.
As far as any printed fake Z letters, I read or heard someplace, that someone claiming to be the Zodiac, said that 4 of the letters were not written by him . ( That could have been Darlene's sister Pam who told me )I was told by Dave Toschi back in the 70's, that Zodiac had a strange way of sealing his envelopes. So if that was true, then it should have been easy to know which ones were his ? The letters that were shown in the news papers were changed in size to protect against copy cats, is something else I was told or read. If any of you know anything about any of this, please post.

AK Wilks wrote:

Azazel wrote:

Zodiac second sketch SF 1969, Harris suspect 1987, "aged" Zodiac sketch by History Channel as Zodiac might look in 2010.
Beneath the Harris suspect sketch is Zodiac Sonoma 1975 sketch, which may just be an "aged" Zodiac sketch, how an artist thought Z might look in 1975.
I think those were the best alternatives.
But the distinctive nose doesnt remind me of the Zodiac scetch. And whats up with his left (or right) ear? Looks like he got different ears.
Haha. Having that "mold" he should had used a cap instead of glasses as a disguise.
And by the way, doesnt he have odd lips? Zodiac that is. (Zodiac second sketch SF 1969)
Seems like the upper and lower lips are same thickness. Almost.

Zodiac Sonoma 1975 sketch and Zodiac sketch by History Channel as Zodiac looks more similiar then the original Z sketch.

Zodiac Sonoma 1975 sketch, which may just be an "aged" Zodiac sketch, how an artist thought Z might look in 1975; Harris suspect sketch 1987; "aged" Zodiac sketch by History Channel as Zodiac might look in 2010.

If that artist had the aged Z right eye droop a bit,and give him a little more wavy hair, it would be a dead ringer for my POI. Very good drawing !

I wish that first sketch would get lost. It's annoying, and I wish that they never released the Sonoma sketch,because it is NOT based on any eye witness. It is made up from an artist's interpretation of what Z MIGHT LOOK LIKE. Its just one more blind alley for people to follow.

morf13 wrote:

I wish that first sketch would get lost. It's annoying, and I wish that they never released the Sonoma sketch,because it is NOT based on any eye witness. It is made up from an artist's interpretation of what Z MIGHT LOOK LIKE. Its just one more blind alley for people to follow.

...as are all the composites, imo. The SF one has done no good what-so-ever except finger every POI under the sun.

A quote from Chief Wigum of the Simpsons: "Be on the lookout for a blue....car". Gee...that helps.

sandy betts wrote:

AK Wilks wrote:

Azazel wrote:

Zodiac second sketch SF 1969, Harris suspect 1987, "aged" Zodiac sketch by History Channel as Zodiac might look in 2010.
Beneath the Harris suspect sketch is Zodiac Sonoma 1975 sketch, which may just be an "aged" Zodiac sketch, how an artist thought Z might look in 1975.
I think those were the best alternatives.
But the distinctive nose doesnt remind me of the Zodiac scetch. And whats up with his left (or right) ear? Looks like he got different ears.
Haha. Having that "mold" he should had used a cap instead of glasses as a disguise.
And by the way, doesnt he have odd lips? Zodiac that is. (Zodiac second sketch SF 1969)
Seems like the upper and lower lips are same thickness. Almost.

Zodiac Sonoma 1975 sketch and Zodiac sketch by History Channel as Zodiac looks more similiar then the original Z sketch.

Zodiac Sonoma 1975 sketch, which may just be an "aged" Zodiac sketch, how an artist thought Z might look in 1975; Harris suspect sketch 1987; "aged" Zodiac sketch by History Channel as Zodiac might look in 2010.

If that artist had the aged Z right eye droop a bit,and give him a little more wavy hair, it would be a dead ringer for my POI. Very good drawing !

Really? I was just about to post something relatively similar. For me, the hair is spot on right down to the part on side. Looking at the photo, the right eye needs to droop. Glasses nearly spot on except I would reduce the lenses a tad. Lighten the face (age) only slightly and you'd have my man around the age of 60.

Soze

Could you man be my guy, sure sounds like it ?

AK: This is the unconfirmed letter that mentions '100+ all over the state of Ca and (Nv)(Na)(Va)(?)'

AK, have you been able to determine the month on the postal mark? TIA

Aqui did a blow up and we both concluded to about 99% degree of certainty it was 6 May 1986.

AK Wilks wrote:

Aqui did a blow up and we both concluded to about 99% degree of certainty it was 6 May 1986.

Thanks! I thought I could see an "M" but that's all I saw without help. Now, with your help, I think I can see "6 Ma".

AK Wilks wrote:

AK: This is the unconfirmed letter that mentions '100+ all over the state of Ca and (Nv)(Na)(Va)(?)'

Exactly looks like the abbreviation NA at the end of the letter. What state is the letter writer referring to since no state has the abbreviation NA? Did he get the abbreviation for Nevada wrong ?

I've used the search engine here to find a discussion on Kibbe and can't find one. Based on the above letter probably mailed May 6, 1986, the person who wrote the letter claimed to have killed two people approximately "two weeks" ago (prior to May 6) "by Sacramento" and near a freeway.

If true, this would be in April 1986 and fits with several things known about Kibbe and his killings.

Has Kibbe been discussed and/or considered as a possible Zodiac suspect here? As far as is known, he strangled his victims but then Zodiac claimed he'd use various methods of killing.

patinky wrote:

I've used the search engine here to find a discussion on Kibbe and can't find one. Based on the above letter probably mailed May 6, 1986, the person who wrote the letter claimed to have killed two people approximately "two weeks" ago (prior to May 6) "by Sacramento" and near a freeway.

If true, this would be in April 1986 and fits with several things known about Kibbe and his killings.

Has Kibbe been discussed and/or considered as a possible Zodiac suspect here? As far as is known, he strangled his victims but then Zodiac claimed he'd use various methods of killing.

http://murderpedia.org/male.K/k/kibbe-roger.htm

'car trouble' m.o.

morf13 wrote:

patinky wrote:

I've used the search engine here to find a discussion on Kibbe and can't find one. Based on the above letter probably mailed May 6, 1986, the person who wrote the letter claimed to have killed two people approximately "two weeks" ago (prior to May 6) "by Sacramento" and near a freeway.

If true, this would be in April 1986 and fits with several things known about Kibbe and his killings.

Has Kibbe been discussed and/or considered as a possible Zodiac suspect here? As far as is known, he strangled his victims but then Zodiac claimed he'd use various methods of killing.

http://murderpedia.org/male.K/k/kibbe-roger.htm

'car trouble' m.o.

Good question!

He got married in 1961 in San Diego. Remember, Joyce & Johnny Swindle murdered in 62 in San Diego,similar to Domingos/Edwards

Yep, that car trouble thing I thought was very interesting! There isn't a lot on Kibbe's history at that site but Kibbe's photos at murderpedia.org site are worth waiting for them to load.

I have no clue if the 1986 letter is a bona fide Zodiac instrument or not but to my eye it has a lot of similarities to Zodiac's known writings. I tried reconciling Kibbe's incarceration dates (prior to 1986) and there isn't a lot of early data on him, at least publicly.

I'll keep looking for things on this guy.

morf13 wrote:

He got married in 1961 in San Diego. Remember, Joyce & Johnny Swindle murdered in 62 in San Diego,similar to Domingos/Edwards

I've either forgotten about the Swindles or never knew about them. I need to look them up. Kibbe was born in 1941 so certainly old enough to be active in the early 60s as well.

Morf, one more thing I forgot. I haven't confirmed this yet but Kibbe was born in Georgia, which could account for some of the "odd" language and phrasing that Zodiac used. I think, iirc, you and I discussed some of the similar things Zodiac wrote that were unfamiliar linguistically to you but common to the region where I live. The region of Kentucky where I live plus middle Tennessee, northern Alabama and north Georgia speak the same language.

Kibbe seemed to have a fixation on strangulation so I doubt he was Zodiac however one of his victims was Lora Heedrick of Modesto killed April 21 1986 which is about two weeks prior to this letter in whic it says he killed two weeks ago.

All of Kibbe's known victim's clothing displayed dysfunctional cutting. This was something that Kibbe was known to have done since age 15 when he would steal women's clothing. By dysfunctional cutting I mean that the cuts were not made to remove clothing, for instance, but done out of some sort of need on Kibbe's part.

Also, Kibbe was a stutterer.

Seagull, the stuttering would preclude Zodiac since Hartnell didn't report any stuttering. Thanks for letting me know about the stuttering.

AK, I agree that the exclusive use of strangulation doesn't fit the known Zodiac killings but then Zodiac did say he would change his methods. Unfortunately, these type guys lie for convenience.

That letter to my untrained eye sure looks a lot like Zodiac correspondence.

I think the 86 letter could be real also it comes 6 months after Ted killed a man in Sacramento and two days after the ONS killed in Orange County near Sacramento Street.

IMO NNNNNNNNNNNNNNAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH or NO

Also IMO this is a construct created using mostly the LA Times letter as reference. Not very well at that.

This is littered with patterns that aren't Zodiac's writing.

The looped y's and g's
The lack of distinct alternating e's
The two uppercase M's (thier shape)
Not a comma in sight (even in his shortest comms Z used commas)
It;s scratchy and laborious and not freely written
No insertion arrow for the word weeks
Non joining T and h in the starting word This (only time we see that is in the LA time letter)
Curving in the double l's in killed the N in Na, the n's, the h's
Even the crosshair is closest to the LA Times one than any of the others and the language, that isn't lifts from the LA Times letter doesn't sound like Zodiac's narrative.

I have to agree with Trav,I dont see alot of Zodiac here.

in all of Zodiac's 1969 letters, ALL of them read... 'please rush to editor'

April,1970 envelopes simply reads, 'editor'

All of the remaining 1970 envelopes do not even mention 'editor' on them

The 1971 LA TIMES envelope mentions 'please rush to editor' (a throwback to his 1969 style, maybe he was excited to be writing to the LA Times for the 1st time)

as does, the 1974 Exorcist letter (maybe he is excited to get ot to the editor since he hasnt written in a long time)

The rest of the 1974 Z envelopes only mention 'editor'

My point being, that while Z varied back and forth between "please rush to editor" & "editor", and in a couple, didnt even mention the editor,he NEVER used the term, 'to the editor' like we see here in this 86 envelope. One more reason I dont think it's z