June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??

Bruce 3 ,I agree with all of what you post.
While I was reading your post, it dawned on me about the Z's revengeful ways. Perhaps killing Paul Stine was to make up for his failure in killing Hartnell , and Mike M ? Letting all of us know ,that he can and will kill anyone at any time.

As for Donna Lass, if Kane wasn't her abductor ( only because he moved there, pretty much at the same time ), then it may have taken the Z those three months to locate her, and plan what to do with her body ?

Again the number 3 seems to be a number he likes ,Sept 6th = 9-6
9-6- 3 reversed is 3 6 9 like on the Mt. Diablo map ?
Also he likes holidays, and it was Labor Day week end.
He must have been too busy on July 4th that yr. or it didn't land on a weekend ?

We know that he seemed to enjoy taunting K.Johns after her abduction. He knew where she had moved to, and yet he let her live.
I think that he enjoyed knowing that she knew he was the Zodiac, and liked tormenting her.
The same way my poi enjoys playing with me.

SB!
Z was into certain numbers. This will be seen when we finally post some very surprising code work.He was really into numerology too as we will show,but in a whole new light.All step by step verifiable too.

Z did threaten to kill if he did not get front page coverage.Or if the people of the N.Bay failed to wear his Z buttons.He claims to have killed a person with a .38 to punish the people that refused to do as he wanted.All power and control over the media and the people to terrorize them for a purpose.He used killing innocent people as his tool or means towards his goals.

Kathleen told me she got calls from the perp just howany she couldnot say,but some harrassing messages.After the threat letter she went underground and it was GS that found her.
Christina or Darlene's sister told us that she got harrassing calls or calls she took not so much that she was requested by the caller who was a male,but it was after her sister was killed.She was followed in SD, but it stopped when she and her then husband moved to the South.The Navy looked into it at SD ,but nothing came of it.

Thanks Bruce3 for that information. I am looking forward to reading about what you found in the numbers and code work, on your wonderful site ! Please let us all know when you have it up.
If anyone is interested I am a 3 in numerology, Bruce D is a 5 unless you add his mid initial, then be becomes a 9. ( that is if I have done this correctly LOL) It's been a while sense I have done numerology. Most of us growing up in the 60's ,knew how to do that.
Its done by the name most people know you by. Dee Ferrin was also a 3. The number 3 on our phones is DEF, Darlene E Ferrin ? #3's are people who get along with most others, its a good number.
I do believe that Darlene knew her killer, and that he did stalk her.

S,
Zodiac totals a 4 in numerology-using the common and most popular Pathagorean method.
Bruce is a 4 and Manson is a 4.

We have to get back to 6/8/67 attack!Chasing zabbits is fun,but!

Sorry I can't be left hanging Bruce3 !
True the Zodiac is a 4 the way that I do it as well, its the way that I thought everyone did it ?
Bruce is 29335 = 22 Davis is 41491 =19 2+2 is 4 and 1+9=10 add the 4+10 =14 makes it 1+4=5
But if you are only using his first name then he for sure he would be a 4.

We should get back on topic LOL. Sorry Morf, but I felt this was important to know.

Credit goes to the oft brilliant Mr. Kite for first looking into the idea, I took his idea and expanded and found further examples, just as Quagmire and Bentley have done.

Basically, if you take the numbers for ALL of the confirmed Zodiac murders, add up the numbers for the month, day and year, they add up to numbers divisible by 5 and forming a pattern from 80 to 105.

This is interesting, if only because it defies logic and laws of probability that ALL the confirmed Zodiac murders and at least four suspected ones should match up in this mathematical way. The matches so far are:

Jensen/Faraday (12/20/68) = 12 + 20 + 68 = 100

Ferrin/Mageau (7/4/69) = 7 + 4 + 69 = 80

Hartnell/Sheperd (9/27/69) = 9 + 27 + 69 = 105

Stine (10/11/69) = 10 + 11 + 69 = 90

Johns (3/22/70) = 3 + 22 + 70 = 95

Radetich (6/19/70) = 6 + 19 + 70 = 95

Lass (9/6/70) = 9 + 6 + 70 = 85

Webster (11/28/69) = 11 + 28 + 81 = 120

This Alameda case does not fit, but IF the killer had intended to strike on June 7, 1967, meaning 6/7/67, which is:

6 + 7 + 67 = 80

then it would fit.

But this is now getting off topic, so if anyone is interested in this number theory, please go to the thread for it and discuss it there:

https://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/zodiac-theories-f14/number-theory-linking-zodiac-murder-dates-t335.htm?highlight=number

otrabrit wrote:

July 4th 1970 fell on a Saturday, Sandy

Thanks for that information Otrabrit, but whats up with 7-4-70 ? Did you get me mixed up with someone asking about July 4th 1970, the one yr anniversary of Darlene driving to pick up Mike M ?
Darlene was killed on Saturday, the 5th of July 1969.

My previous post is about numerology, nothing to do with any dates, names only.
Sorry if I am not understanding something here ?

WOW, I almost cant believe I am typing this. I was contacted today by the Alameda Detective and was told that after a long process, Alameda County has the Lake Herman Rd bullets in their posession to compare with their June 67 case. Results will come in within 2 weeks. (depends on their case load). This is big news, and it took a long time. My gut tells me that the ballistics will match, and give us another confirmed Z crime. I will post results as soon as I hear anything.

Bravo, Morf!

I know we will all be on pins and needles waiting for you to hear from them again.

Fantastic work Morf !!!

Can´t wait to hear the result!

Morf , I think it is wonderful that you have such a good Det that is willing to help.
I will be in that area today, so if there is anything you would like me to get for you , please let me know, or Zam. I will be seeing her today as well. I have my fingers crossed for a match !

This could be monumental. It would be a first that Z be ID'd to a case where he didn't first announce his involvement.

Thanks all. It would be monumental of course if this is the work of Z, and it would give police one more case to look at to help find Z. Then again, I could be wrong about Z being involved. But my gut says I am right. This couple was followed by an unknown man before they were killed. They both received calls from a heavy breather around 10-11am in the weeks before their murders (the same as Robert Graysmith who reported receiving frequent heavy breathing calls around 10:30 am). They were parked on a lovers lane. They were not robbed, and she was not raped. Their family members and people they knew were ruled out as suspects. They were not involved in drugs or other illegal activities. So that seems to leave us with a motiveless crime, and to me, makes it quite possibly a Z crime. Throw in the fact that the guy was killed quickly, and the girl was shot in the back as she ran, and that just adds to it. Finally, the initial ballistics match up to Lake Herman Rd ballistics. The same weapon could have been used in both attacks. Now, microscopic testes are ongoing to determine if the gun that fired the Lake Herman bullets fired the bullets in this June 67 lovers lane case. I honestly wont be surprised if there is a match and this is a z crime. But even if there is not a match, I will still have this on my list of possible Z crimes due to the motiveless shooting attack on a lovers lane. If Z did this, I have to wonder why he never claimed it as his? Maybe he knew them, was friends with them, or worked with them, and didnt want police to be led back to him? Or maybe when he found them parked on a lovers lane and shot them, he wasnt excited since they were in their 30's or 40's, and not the teen targets he was looking for.

If this turns out to be the work of Z, then it will make me personally look at the case from a new angle. I will wonder if Z really ever was down in southern CA in 66-67. If this turns out to be Z, perhaps these same ballistics can be matched up to the Domingos/Edwards case, since the bullets have the same initial ballistics.

Either way, I will happily report what I hear and as soon as I hear it. I do think very highly of the Alameda Detective who has been working on this since late April 2010 when I first reaced out to him. He has an open mind, and doesnt want to see crimes in his jurisdiction go unsolved. If all of the agencies involved had this type of dedication and open mind, perhaps the case may be solved.

Since you opened my eyes to this case I've felt this to be a Z crime. Let's hope ballistics proves this out. It could be Z never used the same gun twice in a crime., but cops say even the best screw up somewhere along the line. Let's hope that's the case here. Way too many similarities to not be the same killer.
You know many of us make a lot of the SoCal to NoCal connection and that the killer had to be in one place or another (me included). Growing up in the Bay Area I've known of probably hundreds of men who worked, primarily in construction, Oil, Trade jobs, but could be in many other fields as well, who travelled to where the jobs were, and would have a home base, say in Northern California, but would have a temp base in SoCal, and would travel and stay there for extended periods of time. I can easily see where Z could have been one of them. Or he grew up in one area, or the other, and then had a family/friend base in either location which would allow him to freely travel back and forth. Vallejo to LA proper, is about 6 hours. I'm sure a crazed serial could make it in 5.
Perhaps Z planned his murders more around his travels, hit in one area, knowing he's shortly leaving town. I would think that could add a lot to LE in the diffculty in tracking a serial.
You know Morf those late morning calls could suggest killer worked off shifts, like Graveyard shift. Intersting, huh?

bayarea60s wrote:

Since you opened my eyes to this case I've felt this to be a Z crime. Let's hope ballistics proves this out. It could be Z never used the same gun twice in a crime., but cops say even the best screw up somewhere along the line. Let's hope that's the case here. Way too many similarities to not be the same killer.
You know many of us make a lot of the SoCal to NoCal connection and that the killer had to be in one place or another (me included). Growing up in the Bay Area I've known of probably hundreds of men who worked, primarily in construction, Oil, Trade jobs, but could be in many other fields as well, who travelled to where the jobs were, and would have a home base, say in Northern California, but would have a temp base in SoCal, and would travel and stay there for extended periods of time. I can easily see where Z could have been one of them. Or he grew up in one area, or the other, and then had a family/friend base in either location which would allow him to freely travel back and forth. Vallejo to LA proper, is about 6 hours. I'm sure a crazed serial could make it in 5.
Perhaps Z planned his murders more around his travels, hit in one area, knowing he's shortly leaving town. I would think that could add a lot to LE in the diffculty in tracking a serial.
You know Morf those late morning calls could suggest killer worked off shifts, like Graveyard shift. Intersting, huh?

Bayarea, some very good points, and I agree with you.

What I see is this:

1963 Domingos /Edwards case, the June 67 Alameda case, and the 12/20/69 case, ALL HAVE THE SAME initial twists and grooves in the bulletes, so initially they are a match. Then all 3 need to be compared under microscope to get a positive match. But what that means is, that the same gun could definitely been used in all 3 crimes. I think that it is possible that Z could have committed the 1963 & 1967 crimes and not come close to getting caught, so kept using the same gun. After the 12/20/69 crime, he knew police had evidence, witnesses, etc, and may have felt pressured to finally get rid of that gun, or no longer use it. That is what I hope happened. That is where Z may have made a mistake.

As far as the heavy breather calls coming in at 10-11 am, I agree with you 100% that the caller likely worked graveyard shift and probably would not call from work. So if you are off at 10-11 am in the morning, you likely work 4pm to 12 midnight, or 12 midnight to 8am (as did my own personal suspect in this case at Humble Oil).

I really dont want to speculate on this case too much, because in a few days, I hope I will know for sure. There are two possibilities, that I am right or that I am wrong, so it is 50/50 odds. Either way, with a newborn at home,I probably wont be able to spend as much time looking for possible Z cases. I scoured tons of old news articles & unsolved crimes, and feel that this particular crime mostly fits Zodiac. The other one that fits the Johns attack mostly, is the Novemeber 1967 attacker in southern CA that was pulling women over by telling them they had car trouble.

If Z was way ahead of the game, he would realize the way guys get caught is hanging on to the same weapon and using it over and over again. I believe the 9mm he used at BRS was different from the 9mm used to kill Paul. But how early on this killer would be aware of this who knows. So I'm hoping this is a match, but like you said earlier, even if it isn't, I'll still highly suspect Z on this one. Too much fits his later MO.

bayarea60s wrote:

I believe the 9mm he used at BRS was different from the 9mm used to kill Paul.

It was. Ballistics confirmed it.

Myself I guess you could call me a gun nut...

What about this... He used same model and brand of gun but different gun's on maybe 1 or more crimes ???

I own few of the same model and brand of guns.. They just alike but got different serial #'s ..

Why because I like the way the gun shoots ...

My favorite type ammo when I can find it is Winchester super XX,, That what I will buy if they got it in stock..

Now don't get no ideas I been ruled out as a suspect... 1967 I was 6 years old clear across USA on East Coast... My little 5 speed bike with banana seat and sissy bar with racing slick on the back was fast but it was sure not that fast to go cross country and be back home by 9:00pm that night...

In 63 I was the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll at 2 years old ....Ruled out on that crime too..

My fingers are crossed that there is an answer one way or another in this case regarding a Zodiac connection by weeks end. In the meantime, I have been contacted by a Family member of one of these victims, and they are going to try and help me sort out some of the clues in the case. Hope to find some interesting stuff, or maybe some Z connection.

Some mixed news today from Alameda County. The Lake Herman Rd bullets were found to be in poor condition, as compared to their victim's bullets. As a result, tests to get a match proved inconclusive. That is a let down. However, the Detective told me that they are looking into more details of this case, and they believe it could still be the work of Zodiac. They are continuing to dig, and will possibly or officially, make this a suspected Z crime. That is good in a way, but a conclusive match would have been key. So we will have to wait.

morf13 wrote:

Some mixed news today from Alameda County. The Lake Herman Rd bullets were found to be in poor condition, as compared to their victim's bullets. As a result, tests to get a match proved inconclusive. That is a let down. However, the Detective told me that they are looking into more details of this case, and they believe it could still be the work of Zodiac. They are continuing to dig, and will possibly or officially, make this a suspected Z crime. That is good in a way, but a conclusive match would have been key. So we will have to wait.

Looking forward to follow the developments, and again...Great work Morf

Keep at it don't give up on this one!

I wont, I hope a clue or lead can be developed.

Morf...

Don't get discouraged...This is just the normal Z luck. He slips thru again, for now. I wonder if victim's family's can be of any assistance? I truly believe you've ID'd a Z murder, just a matter of nailing it down. hopefully LE can dig up some new facts.