Lancaster CA...more Zodiac activity in Southern CA?

Some time back (cant remember when) we had discussed some letters postmarked in southern CA back in 1963 that were mailed in to the Dallas police threatening Jack Ruby for killing Oswald, and other assorted Assasination stuff. The posts were regarding whether the writing looked like the Zodiac's writing. Here are a couple samples-



The letters are postmarked in Lancaster CA, and were sent to Dallas. In case you dont remember, Melvin Belli reprsented Jack Ruby.

Well someone a long time ago mentioned the 1962 case of DONNA MARIE FRISLIE from Lancaster possibly being a Z crime (may have been Tracers or Tahoe, forgive me if i am wrong). In the Frislie case, a person of interest in the case left strange hand written notes about the Frislie case while on a flight from southern CA to Las Vegas. The man was never identified.

There were also some other suspicious letters from Lancaster regarding the Oswald/Ruby/Kennedy stuff. Perhaps someone can post a couple more here. I think RAND had found some of these letters too.

So we have writing that is at least similar to Zodiac being sent from Lancaster, and we have the Frislie case in Lancaster.

My question, any opinions, or theories as to whether the letters or the Frislie case coule be related to Z?

Her is a great website with lots of newsarticles about Donna Marie Frislie´s murder, including the composite of the man who left a newspaper in an TWA airplane heading for Las Vegas, the newspaper containing a newarticle about the Frislie murder where he had written different things, and pulled out the actual newsreport.


http://www.43things.com/entries/view/4970891

Theforeigner wrote:

Her is a great website with lots of newsarticles about Donna Marie Frislie´s murder, including the composite of the man who left a newspaper in an TWA airplane heading for Las Vegas, the newspaper containing a newarticle about the Frislie murder where he had written different things, and pulled out the actual newsreport.


http://www.43things.com/entries/view/4970891

Thanks Foreigner, this is some interesting stuff. The fact she was stabbed and beat, reminds me of Cheri Jo Bates, and also a bit of Nikki Benedict. The Bates confession letter writer wrote "the blond that babysits near the little store". I am curious if there was a little store near the spot where Frislie was murdered?

Of interest was the fact that there was the possibility that someone from a military base nearby was involved. Lancaster was not far from Edwards AFB. In the Domingos/Edwards murder, police checked out the possibility that the bullets came from a nearby base, and in the confirmed Zodiac attacks, you also have nearby bases. Add the fact in that boots from Berryessa may have been bought from a base as well as the watch in the Bates case, and it makes a military person a good possibility for being Z (or a cilvilain or someone that worked on a base)

I first started work on the Donna Marie Freslie case in '07.Others kindly told what they knew from articles,TV/radio news and if they lived in the area then what they heard,etc.
I found a composite of the man seen on the plane with notes he had forgotten to take with him relating to Donna.
He looks a little like the fat face guy (I do not believe he was Z)in the LB composite.Did he meet Z years later?Was he at the Lake that day?

Anything is possible when it comes to how people meet under what conditions and become friends to one degree or another especially criminal types.

In the Lancaster envelope, the author messes with the "o"/circle:


Z had a habit of messing with circles/o/zeros. Here are some examples.

Puts a dot in them:


Fattens them:


Puts 8's in them

rand wrote:

In the Lancaster envelope, the author messes with the "o"/circle:


Z had a habit of messing with circles/o/zeros. Here are some examples.

Puts a dot in them:


Fattens them:


Puts 8's in them

A couple years ago, I posted over on Zkfacts that the desktop poem, had a letter O that looked like it had a dot in it, and resembled the cipher symbol Z used. Of course, they said I was nuts, or tha tit was part of the desk, like a dark spot. I still think it looks like it.

Clearly the author put a dot in it. He also fattened the letter. You're not nuts.

rand wrote:

Clearly the author put a dot in it. He also fattened the letter. You're not nuts.

Agreed. It is clearly intentional, it fits perfectly!

We have the Santa Barbara/Lompoc murders of the couple in June 1963 ;also this post mark is 1963 from a CA city/area.
The envelope as to writing and address characteristics could at least be Z-like,but the message is not so much. Still of interest.
We may suppose Z did sporadically write letters to the editors of various papers based on his interest in subject matter at the time.

Maybe FBI could check for prints/DNA using the latest technology?

bruce3 wrote:

We have the Santa Barbara/Lompoc murders of the couple in June 1963 ;also this post mark is 1963 from a CA city/area.
The envelope as to writing and address characteristics could at least be Z-like,but the message is not so much. Still of interest.
We may suppose Z did sporadically write letters to the editors of various papers based on his interest in subject matter at the time.

Maybe FBI could check for prints/DNA using the latest technology?

I agree, and am willing to bet that there are many more letters he wrote to various papers and editors, and possibly some of them were published with his real name.

agreed.

morf13 wrote:

bruce3 wrote:

We have the Santa Barbara/Lompoc murders of the couple in June 1963 ;also this post mark is 1963 from a CA city/area.
The envelope as to writing and address characteristics could at least be Z-like,but the message is not so much. Still of interest.
We may suppose Z did sporadically write letters to the editors of various papers based on his interest in subject matter at the time.

Maybe FBI could check for prints/DNA using the latest technology?

I agree, and am willing to bet that there are many more letters he wrote to various papers and editors, and possibly some of them were published with his real name.

It would be a real chore, and would take alot of time and effort, but I wonder what the results would be if you looked thru all of the papers in the Santa Barbara/Lompoc area from the early to mid 60's, the Riverside/San Bernardino area mid to late 60's, and then the Vallejo/San Fran area 69-74, to see if you could find any Z-like writers of letters to the editor, with the same name, in all those time frames, in all those areas.

I have always felt that if you found a person who was confirmed to be in the Lompoc area in 63, the Riverside area in 66-67, and the Vallejo area 69-74, then that person would be a very strong candidate to be Zodiac.

Morf wrote:

Quote :

The letters are postmarked in Lancaster CA, and were sent to Dallas. In case you dont remember, Melvin Belli reprsented Jack Ruby.

Well someone a long time ago mentioned the 1962 case of DONNA MARIE FRISLIE from Lancaster possibly being a Z crime (may have been Tracers or Tahoe, forgive me if i am wrong). In the Frislie case, a person of interest in the case left strange hand written notes about the Frislie case while on a flight from southern CA to Las Vegas. The man was never identified.

There were also some other suspicious letters from Lancaster regarding the Oswald/Ruby/Kennedy stuff. Perhaps someone can post a couple more here. I think RAND had found some of these letters too.

So we have writing that is at least similar to Zodiac being sent from Lancaster, and we have the Frislie case in Lancaster.

My question, any opinions, or theories as to whether the letters or the Frislie case coule be related to Z?

I was the one who originally posted the information about Donna Frislie on ZK.com. There were a couple of reasons I thought it worth looking at. As you noted, the reference to the Blonde babysitter in the Confession letter.
Donna was kidnapped from the home where she was babysitting. The front door was found open and also the back sliding glass door was unlocked. A radio was knocked over and one of her shoes was on the floor. The mother of the children she had been babysitting was dating someone in the military and was out with him that night. There was always innuendo that the police suspected someone in the military. I don't know if there was any reason other than the fact that her body was found off of a road used to travel to military bases in San Bernardino and Riverside area (Approx. 12 miles east of Lancaster in the desert) and the connection with the woman she babysat for. I doubt they had any footprints or tire track prints as I believe it snowed in the period before they found her body.
I knew Donna and the house she was kidnapped from was about six blocks from where I lived. There was (is) a liquor store a short walk from that house - about three blocks.

At the time, the police classified it as a "Revenge" killing because it was so violent, she was stabbed approximately fifty times if I remember correctly. But... that was before Law Enforcement had a clear understanding about Serial Killers.
One theory I have is that a chance remark to; or in front of; a co-worker or fellow military officer by the gentleman who was dating the woman Donna babysit for, could possibly have alerted the suspect to the fact that Donna would be there alone. Almost no one locked their doors then. I also think it might not be military in the strictest sense of the word. USAF Plant 42 is between Palmdale and Lancaster and was an Aerospace hub in the sixties, with a lot of military and cililian personnel who would have many of the skills that we attribute to Z. The companies like Lockheed, Rockwell and Northrop all had communications systems tied in with the military using teletye machines. I worked in a message center for one of these companies and used the teletype machines as well as some of the earliest fax machines. I believe Z could have been a civilian aerospace worker who may have been in the military at a prior time.

CP

Thank you Crackproof, for sharing that VERY interresting information WOW!
And great to see you post again, wish you would post more often:)

crackproof wrote:

Morf wrote:

Quote :

The letters are postmarked in Lancaster CA, and were sent to Dallas. In case you dont remember, Melvin Belli reprsented Jack Ruby.

Well someone a long time ago mentioned the 1962 case of DONNA MARIE FRISLIE from Lancaster possibly being a Z crime (may have been Tracers or Tahoe, forgive me if i am wrong). In the Frislie case, a person of interest in the case left strange hand written notes about the Frislie case while on a flight from southern CA to Las Vegas. The man was never identified.

There were also some other suspicious letters from Lancaster regarding the Oswald/Ruby/Kennedy stuff. Perhaps someone can post a couple more here. I think RAND had found some of these letters too.

So we have writing that is at least similar to Zodiac being sent from Lancaster, and we have the Frislie case in Lancaster.

My question, any opinions, or theories as to whether the letters or the Frislie case coule be related to Z?

I was the one who originally posted the information about Donna Frislie on ZK.com. There were a couple of reasons I thought it worth looking at. As you noted, the reference to the Blonde babysitter in the Confession letter.
Donna was kidnapped from the home where she was babysitting. The front door was found open and also the back sliding glass door was unlocked. A radio was knocked over and one of her shoes was on the floor. The mother of the children she had been babysitting was dating someone in the military and was out with him that night. There was always innuendo that the police suspected someone in the military. I don't know if there was any reason other than the fact that her body was found off of a road used to travel to military bases in San Bernardino and Riverside area (Approx. 12 miles east of Lancaster in the desert) and the connection with the woman she babysat for. I doubt they had any footprints or tire track prints as I believe it snowed in the period before they found her body.
I knew Donna and the house she was kidnapped from was about six blocks from where I lived. There was (is) a liquor store a short walk from that house - about three blocks.

At the time, the police classified it as a "Revenge" killing because it was so violent, she was stabbed approximately fifty times if I remember correctly. But... that was before Law Enforcement had a clear understanding about Serial Killers.
One theory I have is that a chance remark to; or in front of; a co-worker or fellow military officer by the gentleman who was dating the woman Donna babysit for, could possibly have alerted the suspect to the fact that Donna would be there alone. Almost no one locked their doors then. I also think it might not be military in the strictest sense of the word. USAF Plant 42 is between Palmdale and Lancaster and was an Aerospace hub in the sixties, with a lot of military and cililian personnel who would have many of the skills that we attribute to Z. The companies like Lockheed, Rockwell and Northrop all had communications systems tied in with the military using teletye machines. I worked in a message center for one of these companies and used the teletype machines as well as some of the earliest fax machines. I believe Z could have been a civilian aerospace worker who may have been in the military at a prior time.

CP

I corresponded with her Sister for a bit,and tossed some ideas and info back and forth, but she died unexpectedly a year or two ago.

Also of interest is the fact that Edwards AFB is close to Lancaster. The Bates case was close to March AFB, and the Domingos/Edwards case was close to Vandenberg AFB.

And not to forget:

Linda "Lindy" Sue Biechler had been working in Lancaster, either at a Hertz rental agency or a flower store (different sources).

And the Janice Crum (she knows more!!!) letter 01-05-1977 had mentioned Lancaster ('Live in Westend of Lancaster suburbs') and also refers to 'Chief pig' and the Linda Sue Biechler murder.

QT

Quicktrader wrote:

And not to forget:

Linda "Lindy" Sue Biechler had been working in Lancaster, either at a Hertz rental agency or a flower store (different sources).

And the Janice Crum (she knows more!!!) letter 01-05-1977 had mentioned Lancaster ('Live in Westend of Lancaster suburbs') and also refers to 'Chief pig' and the Linda Sue Biechler murder.

QT

Just to point out, the Lancaster we are talking about in this thread is Lancaster CA, Lindy was killed in Lancaster PA

morf13 wrote:

Quicktrader wrote:

And not to forget:

Linda "Lindy" Sue Biechler had been working in Lancaster, either at a Hertz rental agency or a flower store (different sources).

And the Janice Crum (she knows more!!!) letter 01-05-1977 had mentioned Lancaster ('Live in Westend of Lancaster suburbs') and also refers to 'Chief pig' and the Linda Sue Biechler murder.

QT

Just to point out, the Lancaster we are talking about in this thread is Lancaster CA, Lindy was killed in Lancaster PA

As far as I know, Linda's (partents?) home was at 104A Kloss Drive, Spring Manor Apartments, in Lancaster PA. The 'Urgent' letter had been sent to Manor Township Police Department. She was killed inside her apartment, however I do not know for sure if this was at 104A Kloss Drive or somewhere in LA. Also, Lt. Sheeler was from Manor Township Police and did the writer of the 'Urgent' letter refer to Lindy's murder (e.g. cuts on the gravestone). The letter had arrived exactly 25 months after her murder.



http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=500

QT

QUICKTRADER,I am still confused....are you confusing that we are talking about 2 different Lancasters, one in CA & one in PA? Or do you think there is a connection? Please explain.

I am the biggest supporter of the Biechler letter being a possible Z letter, but just want to see what you are getting at.

For the record only- I was the first to post on Frislie. Researched this case extensively.





My guy was in the area or CA from TN in '63.His friend said he went up.down the state.FYI Then he went back.Then came back to live '64.

Bruce3:

Quote :

For the record only- I was the first to post on Frislie. Researched this case extensively.

Is this Howard? I believe you and I discussed this case a long time ago. I only meant that I had originally posted my info at ZK.com, not that I was the first or only to make a connection. I thought Morf might have been referring to my posts but maybe yours. No matter. It is still an interesting possibility. Were you able to read any of the police files? (Is this off tract from the intent of this thread?)

CP

morf13 wrote:

QUICKTRADER,I am still confused....are you confusing that we are talking about 2 different Lancasters, one in CA & one in PA? Or do you think there is a connection? Please explain.

I am the biggest supporter of the Biechler letter being a possible Z letter, but just want to see what you are getting at.

Right now I talk only about Lancaster, PA..also there is a Janice Theresa Crum (http://www.publicrecords.com/people-search-records/jan-crum) who had been living at both, Desert Hot Springs, CA, and Lancaster, PA.

Age information might be from 2004, which makes her a 1945er...not talking about Z yet, but I'd say the Urgent letter add-on might be from her.

QT

Quicktrader wrote:

morf13 wrote:

QUICKTRADER,I am still confused....are you confusing that we are talking about 2 different Lancasters, one in CA & one in PA? Or do you think there is a connection? Please explain.

I am the biggest supporter of the Biechler letter being a possible Z letter, but just want to see what you are getting at.

Right now I talk only about Lancaster, PA..also there is a Janice Theresa Crum (http://www.publicrecords.com/people-search-records/jan-crum) who had been living at both, Desert Hot Springs, CA, and Lancaster, PA.

Age information might be from 2004, which makes her a 1945er...not talking about Z yet, but I'd say the Urgent letter add-on might be from her.

QT

Well interesting about Janice Crum, she would have been only about 15 at the time of the Z crimes, and she was living in the Lancaster PA area in the mid 90's,not the 70's. I like your thinking outside the box,but this looks like a coincidence. I found a Janice Crum in the San Fran area that was a school teacher near where Stine was killed. Also,a separate one in the Modesto area, but nothing that solidly linked them to Lindy's case. If the z case was solved tomorrow,and I found out Z was living in Lancaster PA in the 70s and wrote that letter,I would not be surprised

morf13 wrote:

Quicktrader wrote:

morf13 wrote:

QUICKTRADER,I am still confused....are you confusing that we are talking about 2 different Lancasters, one in CA & one in PA? Or do you think there is a connection? Please explain.

I am the biggest supporter of the Biechler letter being a possible Z letter, but just want to see what you are getting at.

Right now I talk only about Lancaster, PA..also there is a Janice Theresa Crum (http://www.publicrecords.com/people-search-records/jan-crum) who had been living at both, Desert Hot Springs, CA, and Lancaster, PA.

Age information might be from 2004, which makes her a 1945er...not talking about Z yet, but I'd say the Urgent letter add-on might be from her.

QT

Well interesting about Janice Crum, she would have been only about 15 at the time of the Z crimes, and she was living in the Lancaster PA area in the mid 90's,not the 70's. I like your thinking outside the box,but this looks like a coincidence. I found a Janice Crum in the San Fran area that was a school teacher near where Stine was killed. Also,a separate one in the Modesto area, but nothing that solidly linked them to Lindy's case. If the z case was solved tomorrow,and I found out Z was living in Lancaster PA in the 70s and wrote that letter,I would not be surprised

And she lived in the same town where Lindy, the victim mentioned in the letter, had been killed (lived)...also where the letter was sent to. Would not wonder if she would live or had lived close to 104 Kloss Drive..

You may want to move this to the Lindy Sue Biechler thread