Troy Houghton: The Minuteman

DNA and/or fingerprints would certainly nail this one down and send us all home happy...

Kevin B wrote:

Good case, but what would nail him down? DNA? Finger Prints?

Yes. But we have several POIs who have been ruled out by DNA and fingerprints. Yet people on this board keep tauting them and seem to convince people that their "ruled out" POI is Z. They won't take "no" for an answer. Of course, they have elaborate reasons why DNA and fingerprints don't rule out their POIs. So what would rule them out if not physical evidence? The answer: Nothing. I'm betting that if someone finds Z and it's proven, they'll still be saying: nope, my POI is Z, so it can't be the guy. Ask people who support these POI: what would disconfirm your theory?
Yet, my POI they rule out because they claim he was dead. Is there a shred of evidence to support this theory? No. Do they know anything that I don't know? Of course not. Yet, all they need is for someone to have said he was dead, and that's all the proof they need. So, for them, DNA and fingerprints are not proof. Heresay and rumour are 100% proof.
Moreover, in their eyes, it's inconceivable that someone could go underground and disappear in this country in the 1960s. Forget the fact that we can name lots of people who have done so and turned up 20 or 30 or 40 years later. Not impressed by that.
Forget the fact that TH was obsessed with aliases (and you should have heard the stories his friend told me about how elaborate his schemes for going underground and assuming a new identity were). Forget the fact that TH said he was going underground and DePugh created an underground crack team right before TH disappeared.



Nope. Couldn't have happened. Surelly he would have contacted his family, they say. Well, what if he died in 1974? We're talking eight years.
And what about this from a MM bulletin from the CA chapter of the MM (which TH headed), urging MM to give up their families for the cause?


Nope, TH couldn't possibly have gone underground. He must have been murdered.

rand wrote:

So, for them, DNA and fingerprints are not proof. Heresay and rumour are 100% proof.

A lot of "stuff" that sounds good isn't proof of anything, no matter who your POI is. Too many folks think their guy is THE guy and it just can't be.

I have a feeling when Zodiac is found he will not be what anyone expected. He is probably a family man who never had so much as a parking ticket and not some sort of political fanatic, but instead, someone totally insignificant....like BTK. Not some crazy Manson type weirdo. Just your average guy (not really, but you know what I mean).

But I do feel it's important for folks such as yourself to research different people. If everyone stuck with Zodiac being ALA, Zodiac would never be found.

Tahoe, I've added things to the above post.
Physical evidence, like fingerprints and DNA, ID people by odds. The odds that two people share DNA or fingerprints is astronomical (leaving out twins for DNA). That's how it works. So tell me where my reasoning goes wrong here:
How many people have talked about putting a pencil light on the barrel of a gun? (1 in 500?)
How many people have shot the tires out of a car with a woman still inside? (1 in 1000?)
How many people are fascinated by paper? (one in 1000?)
How many people are fascinated by ciphers and talk about it? (one in 100?)
How many people talk about ammonium nitrate as an explosive to kill people? (1 in 500?)
How many people have had a nationally syndicated column about them saying in the title that they "Have a Little List" of people they're going to assassinate? (1 in a million?)
How many people have been convicted twice of flashing 4 TEENs in total? (1 in 10,000?)
How many people had an explosives license issued in CA? (1 in 500?)
How many people owned a company with BLAST in the title? (1 in 10,000?)
How many people had a front page LA Times article about them regarding giving a speech at the Jolly Roger Inn? (1 in 10000?)
How many people were major figures in an organization represented by a crosshair symbol? (1 in 10,000?)
How many people have an obsession with aliases? (1 in 1000?)
How many people look just like the Z composite and lived in Southern California in the early 1960s (1 in 100?)
How many people were arrested several times for tampering with vehicles? (1 in 500?)
How many people were arrested for tampering with a library book? (1 in 10000?)
How many people have a shortwave radio and teletype machine? (1 in 1000?)
How many people are on record hating the press and LE? (1 in 100?)
How many people wrote newsletters exhorting people to write Letters to the Editor? (1 in 1000?)

The odds that any one person would have all these characteristics is astronomical. Either TH was the most unlucky person on earth, or he's the guy.

It's still just "stuff" Rand.

I could argue a lot of what you just posted.

The "Jolly Roger" for example. It was just a greeting card Zodiac picked up at a store. Did he go looking for a card made by Jolly Roger, or did they just happen to be the maker of a card Zodiac thought fitting to mail??

Zodiac fascinated by paper? Says who?

People looking like the Zodiac composite in the early 60's? 1 in 100? I'd say a hell of a lot more than that! And since I don't see Cheri Jo being a Zodiac victim, that doesn't mean too much to me.

There are some valid points, but nothing proves him to be Zodiac. It's just like EVERYONE elses' POI's. And that is ok!! But it's just doesn't prove a thing. It's how I feel about everyone's POI's. Even folks I have considered in the past.

I'll leave you to your thread...

I wasn't being snarky with you. I'm just asking, because I respect your opinion, what's wrong with my logic.
Okay, you say that we don't know that Z was fascinated by paper. True, we don't know that. But we know he used eccentric paper, not run of the mill paper. I didn't bring this fact up. Others have.

Okay, you say people have lots of things that connect their POI.
What about someone who talked about taping a pencil light to their gun? Imagine you had a suspect for the LH murders, and you go to this person's house and see a pencil light taped to the barrel of their gun. That wouldn't seal the deal for you? Isn't that qualitatively different in terms of odds than someone who was walking their dog when Stine was murdered?

How about someone who obsessively spoke about killing people with ammonium nitrate explosives? And someone who shot the tires out of a car and held the person at gunpoint? Z says: I should shoot the tires out of a bus. He said that for a reason. It's idiosyncratic. The fact that the guy who's taping a pencil light to a gun, talking about ammonium nitrate, is obsessed with paper and ciphers, also shot the tires out of a car with a woman in it, strikes me as esp. intriguing. It's not any individual fact, it's the totality of them and their uniqueness. THe fact that he looked like Z is not what interests me: it's just something that must be there - a sine qua non for the POI.

And I never said it "proved" TH was Z. If that were the case, we'd all go home. I'm saying that the odds are astronomical. You obviously disagree, so it isn't proven yet.

I didn't feel you were being snarky with me rand.

There are definitely things that stand out, no doubt about it.

Things you mention individually aren't that intriguing. Taping flashlights to guns isn't something new. Someone even found a book about doing that in regards to raccoon hunting (I think). But yes, when you combine certain aspects together it does become more intriguing.

Unfortunately, nothing seals the deal for me with this case. Maybe finding a man of the right age with Stine's wallet might might do it for me!

But if you had a good POI for LHR -- one who belonged to an organization with a crosshair symbol for a moniker and had all the things I've listed, e.g., fascination with ciphers, explosives, etc., was written about in terms of having a Little List, etc. etc. -- and you saw he had a pencil light attached to the barrel of his gun, wouldn't that send a shiver down your spine when you walked into his house? And then you found out that he frequently drives around alone for weeks at a time with a gun and handcuffs in his car...
I'm betting you'd leave that house pronto

I just found out Bettie Houghton's birthday. GET THIS: OCT 11, 1935.


DEC. 20: (LHR) TROY HOUGHTON, JR. born Dec. 21

JULY 4th (BRS) Minutemen

SEPT 27: (LB) Samuel Adams was born on Sept. 27, 1722. Paul Revere's ride was to warn Adams and Hancock. Again. Minutemen

OCTOBER 11 (STINE). Bettie Houghton's birthday.


Btw. Bettie was living in Big Pine CA. PEEK BETWEEN THE PINES

IF YOU ALL DON'T BELIEVE THAT TH WAS Z, I JUST DON'T GET IT. WHAT ARE THE ODDS FOR ALL THIS!

I just got this Christmas card sent by Troy Haughton, circa mid-1960s. What's interesting is that it is Troy's own creation. It must have been printed on his father's in-laws printing company. So the little poem inside is Troy's, I believe. Notice how disciple is spelled:






Today, I was betting that Bettie was born on Oct. 11th, and I was right.
Now I'm betting that Bettie and Troy were married on Sept. 27th. I'll let you know when I find out.
If you have the right guy, it should all fall in to place; the dates should make sense.

Wow. Troy sure must have been a romantic guy....what a gift.

Why do the dates in a seemingly random murder case have to mean anything to anyone?

They could just be random.....like, whenever a car pulled down a known lovers lane on a Friday or Saturday night.

I am not downplaying any perceived significance, I am just saying not every date has to have significance, IMHO.

The card is pretty cool and must've been a pain in the ass to make. Neat find!

If you have a theory, you must ask: if the theory is true, what would I expect to find? The dates make sense (have significance for) Troy H. -- all except for Oct. 11th. So I ask: What does Oct. 11 mean to TH? hmmm. I bet Bettie was born on Oct. 11th. So I ask my friend to check on that. She writes back with the information: Oct. 11, 1935. VOILA!

No matter what I find, it seems that people, like yourself, want to underplay its significance. So it doesn't surprise me that you ask: Why would the dates of the murders be significant to Z?

The fact that I just found out 10 or more things about TH that further confirm the theory -- things like, TH talked incessently about attaching a pencil light to the barrel of a gun to shoot at night; things like TH was obsessed with ammonium nitrate as an explosive to kill people, etc. etc. -- gets no response. So I keep listing things that implicate TH as Z, and each individual item is dismissed or gainsayed. What about the totality of ALL the connections?
People seem to think that, if a person went to the same school as CJB and looks like Z, well, that's fascinating. But 60 idiosyncratic items that connect TH to Z -- that's boring.

When you have the right POI, it will shed light on things we didn't understand; it will make sense of the case. So consider the Halloween Card. No one ever mentioned that it's a flasher image. TH was convicted twice of flashing 4-TEENS. Now look at the card: Z places a pumpkin over the genitals, then puts a skeleton without a pumpkin in a garrish pose and writes: PEEK-A-BOO! YOU ARE DOOMED! 4-TEEN.

I have a list of 60 or more things that connect TH to Z. I'm showing you who Z was. That's all I can do. If you think it's all insignificant (why should the dates of the murders have meaning?) or boring, what can I do. You don't want to believe the truth, and I can't change history or make the case more interesting for you -- or for those who have other POIs and don't want to read or consider the case I've built against TH. The case is what it is. People can believe whatever they want to believe. It won't changed the truth. Nothing I say or you say will change the truth. There's a lot on this thread. I know the materials backwards and forwards. I understand the arguments backwards and forwards. That's too much to ask of people reading a thread, and I understand that. But if you understood what I've presented here the way I do, you'd come to the same conclusion that I have.

Honestly I have read every single post and I do not come to the same conclusion.

I do not think Troy was likely the Zodiac. And I doubt he was even alive in 1969.

But even if 100 members here all said "Yes you are right! Troy was the Zodiac!" What would that achieve? How would that change the case?

If you think you have overwhelming evidence TH was Z, take it to law enforcement and/or major media. Twice I offered to introduce you to my law enforcement contacts and you declined. I did not think TH was likely Z, but I thought it was possible, and I thought you had put together enough interesting evidence that it should be checked out. You declined.

Did you see were they got DNA off a tie that DB Cooper wore? If you want to prove TH was Z, get some items of his, a tie, a hairbrush, a shirt. Go the distance. Make it happen. Get items with his DNA, hair, fingerprints and handwriting and take it to law enforcement and the major media. Thats what I did, and thats what I am doing.

IMO that is the only way to prove or disprove a POI was or was not Zodiac. Get the evidence and get it into the hands of people who can test it and/or get media involved and/or test it yourself. Message boards can play a helpful role up to a point, testing theories, getting feedback and finding new information. But to solve the case you have to get law enforcement involved, as difficult, slow and time consuming as that is to do. But it CAN be done, you saw the proof of that with some very recent nationwide headlines about a certain POI and a 1982 cold case. You are a very good researcher and have put together an interesting case. You could do the same thing I did. Go for it.

AK Wilks wrote:

Honestly I have read every single post and I do not come to the same conclusion.

I do not think Troy was likely the Zodiac. And I doubt he was even alive in 1969.

You're wrong. It's as simple as that. I'd love to get the evidence into the hands of people who can test it. If LE wants to know who Z was, I'll be more than happy to tell them. But do you think that they will listen to me? I don't. They don't care what "non-professionals" think. And why should they care considering what a terrific job they've done solving the case over the past 42 years? Whether or not you believe TH was Z, how in the world have they not considered him and ruled him out? It's truly incredible. I've never heard the MM mentioned in connection with Z. That's also incredible.

You say you've read every post and don't come to the same conclusion. Why? You never say what it is about TH that doesn't convince you, except that you don't believe he was alive (how would you know? You've researched his alleged murder? I thought I was the one who did that?). You doubt he was alive -- well, that's convenient when you think you know who Z was and it wasn't TH, right? What rules him out for you other than that he's not TK, someone whom LE has looked at and eliminated. Why don't you comment on the things I've presented. I just posted 14 items that I found out about TH that point directly at Z. Why don't you agree? I'm not being snarky here; I'm just being frank with you. If you want to discuss TH as a suspect, then let's discuss it. The devil is in the details. I'm willing to go over all the evidence I've presented with you, piece by piece. Then let's look at the totality of the evidence and consider the odds that all of it could point at one person, and that person wasn't Z.

All of the KNOWN crimes of TH reveal him to be a bumbling fool, an incompetent criminal. There is no evidence TH ever killed anyone. He was caught for flashing, and busted for weapons and other charges, seeminly every time he did a crime he was caught, he was stupid and careless, yet he was ALSO Zodiac, who did a number of high profile murders and never got caught? The greatest and most intelligent uncaught American serial killer ever? I don't buy it. IMO the evidence shows he was dead. It is not my job to prove him dead, it is your job to prove that in 1969 he was alive and in the San Francisco area.

I twice offered to give you my LE contacts, their info and to write a letter to them saying Rand is a good researcher who has put together information about a suspect who should be looked at. You twice turned me down.

Its up to you. if you really think TH was Z, take it to law enforcement. There are some very bright and good people trying to solve the Zodiac case.

I have posted many times why I don't think TH was Z, and I am not going to do it again. You disregarded every criticism. I do not want to go over every bit of evidence, go over it with the SFPD and Cal DOJ. They have the fingerprints, handwriting, hair and maybe DNA of Zodiac. I don't!

You can post things, but at a certain point what good does it do? Why try to convince me he is Zodiac?

Bottom line if you really think 100% this man is Zodiac you should contact LE. I gave you the chance, you turned me down.

rand wrote:

I've never heard the MM mentioned in connection with Z. That's also incredible.

Didn't you get interested in the MM after a post by Rembrandt in August of 2009?

Yes. Rembrandt's post struck me like a thunderbolt. I meant, I've never heard any Z-MM connection from LE. I thought that was understand given the context of the previous line.

Btw, regarding TH's alleged murder, Z spoke of SLAVES FOR THE AFTERLIFE, ECHOES FROM A SUICIDES GRAVE, SOCIETY'S OFFENDERS THAT GO UNDERGROUND.

Slaves for the afterlife -- TH was already presumed dead. The killings were his slaves for his "after" life -- the life he was living.
Echoes from a suicide's grave -- TH, figuratively, rose from the dead
Society's offenders that go underground -- TH was underground in his "afterlife" and he was one of society's offenders.

AK Wilks wrote:

He was caught for flashing, and busted for weapons and other charges, seeminly every time he did a crime he was caught, he was stupid and careless, yet he was ALSO Zodiac, who did a number of high profile murders and never got caught? The greatest and most intelligent uncaught American serial killer ever? I don't buy it. IMO the evidence shows he was dead. It is not my job to prove him dead, it is your job to prove that in 1969 he was alive and in the San Francisco area.

This illogical claim is more weighty than all the things I've shown on the other side of the scale?
Your claim that "seemingly every time he did a crime he was caught.." is the basis of your argument. Yet, it makes no sense. If TH wasn't caught for 90% of his crimes, how would you know? You're wrongly generalizing from all the known events (TH got caught) to the universe of cases which would include non-events (when TH didn't get caught). You can't do that. It's illogical. Troy was no bumbler, I can assure you of that. Everyone who knew him thought him to be shrewd and astute in the arts of deception and foiling detection.

The Christmas card you posted today seems to be religious in nature. Not really something
I would expect from Z. Do you have any opinions on this rand?

rand wrote:

. Troy was no bumbler, I can assure you of that. Everyone who knew him thought him to be shrewd and astute in the arts of deception and foiling detection.

How can you be so certain? The stuff you have shared with us seems to show him as a bit of a bumbler. I think most would agree.

I don't know why people think Z was without bumbling. He failed to kill a person in a car; he failed to kill a person tied up; then he should have been caught after the Stine murder -- only a mistake on the police radio that the person was an African-American saved him. He leaves his watch at the scene of CJB (how don't they get DNA from it?); he tries to burn Domingos and Edwards but can't light the fire. The guy made many mistakes. That said, he was very clever, too. Both of these things fit TH -- a clever, shrewd operator who suffered from too much bravado.

caresut wrote:

The Christmas card you posted today seems to be religious in nature. Not really something
I would expect from Z. Do you have any opinions on this rand?

According to his best friend, TH hated religious fanatics. The card strikes me as religious but also very patriotic. Not your average Christmas card. What interests me is that TH seems to have written and composed it (Z liked poems, as we know) and he mispells disciple as diciple. Does that strike you as interesting or probative?

It is interesting if he wrote it. Where did the card come from? How do we know it was from the mid 60s?
He hated religious fanatics but was he religious? This card doesn't seem written by someone
who hates religious fanatics. Don't you agree with that?

Have you talked to anyone in all your research who was in contact with TH after he disappeared?
Maybe something you haven't shared with us?
Can this best friend not confirm that he was alive during the time of the Z?

Rand, this is what I was talking about, items which you yourself posted (to your credit I might add).

First, this description of TH makes him out to be late, fat, out of shape, uncoordinated, clumsy, with his gun falling out of his pocket and not someone who inspires confidence as a tactician, fighter or leader.



Second, and more important, in my opinion anyone who has been arrested 15 times for offenses minor and major is likely an incompetent bumbling criminal, and is not very consistent with an unknown subject who created unbreakable codes and did somewhere between 6 to 10 murders, and perhaps several more, and never got caught.




But I don't deny you have used your impressive research skills to put together a lot of interesting information on TH. I urge you to take it to law enforcement and get the DNA, fingerprints, hair and handwriting checked. Thats the only way we will ever know. It can be done, its not easy, but it can be done.

Z almost got caught and should have been caught after Stine. He messed up time and again. Many of the things that TH was caught for happened early in his life. He was also under constant surveillance because he was head of an anti-government organization. It's a very different story when you're a nobody in the Bay Area and you're killing people randomly. Much different story. But the bumbling of Z and TH are entirely consistent in my mind. Both were very clever, were pranksters, and displayed hubris.

How this is a major strike against someone with 60 specific things that point to Z escapes me.
But it's a free country of course.

By comparison, let's consider TK for a moment. He looks nothing like the composite. He didn't have a receding hairline, he wasn't fat, and he just looks nothing like Z. Mageau saw Z and thought he looked like ALA. BUT he had hair in a pompadour. Not let's compare ALA, TH, and TK:

ALA AND TH AND TK

TH IN 1966


ALA


TK IN 1966


ONE COULD EASILY MISTAKE ALA FOR TH. THEY LOOK VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL EXCEPT THAT ALA WAS BALD.
WHAT ABOUT TK? NO WAY, NO HOW DOES TK LOOK LIKE ALA. NO WAY IS TK THE SAME GUY THAT MAGEAU OR FOUKES SAW. END OF STORY. HE WASN'T THE ZODIAC. HIS PRINTS AND DNA TELL US THAT. AGAIN, END OF STORY.

BY COMPARISON, ACCORDING TO TROY'S BEST FRIEND, TROY WAS A DEADRINGER FOR THE Z COMPOSITE. HE SHOULD KNOW, RIGHT?

TH AND Z


[/quote]



Furthermore, Z was a bit of a prankster and jokester. TK was neither -- dead serious. TH was always described as a prankser and jokester.