Fred Manalli

Here's where Zam posted the Oz book covers -
https://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t737-possible-tjk-wizard-of-oz-connection
Scroll to the 2nd post for nice pics of 3 books. Thank you, Zam! These zynchronocities from Jack Pumpkinhead noted by Zam are interesting, imo. All I recall about J.P. is that it seemed the most interesting of the Oz books. Also from this thread -
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The Belli letter - the holiday greeting on the back of the envelope reads:
Mery Xmass &
New .Year
Notice that there are two sets of letters that line up. The N is directly under the M, and the Y is directly under the X. This makes two alphabetic sequences: M, N and X, Y. If you look at it this way, the next letters in the sequence just kind of pop out: an O under the N, and a Z under the Y. That makes the two alphabetic sequences M,N,O and X,Y,Z. So that would be OZ on the third line, supposing there were a third line.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
To me, the letters OZ just jump out. Really looks like the written letters were aligned that way on purpose. Just in case any of ya'll want to look at the original card and see what what you think.
Mery Xmass &
New .Year
O......Z

I got Manalli's military records back. No smoking guns. He was not trained in ciphers or cryptologyor bombs,in fact it states "no formal service schools attended". He IS a sharpshooter! "sharpshooter Badge w rifle bar". No records of any court martials. In 1960, he was with the 814thQM Co(Mechanical & metal repair). No indications of mental pr physical health,which is no surprise since that is classified info,as is whether or not he has prints on file which I hoped there may be,but I dont know for sure.

So he was a sharpshooter and mechanic. That's pretty handy for killing people and fiddling with cars.

traveller1st wrote:

So he was a sharpshooter and mechanic. That's pretty handy for killing people and fiddling with cars.

I am sure he could easily "pick off the kiddies"

morf13 wrote:

traveller1st wrote:

So he was a sharpshooter and mechanic. That's pretty handy for killing people and fiddling with cars.

I am sure he could easily "pick off the kiddies"

Hmmm chillingly good point. I was thinking as well that he was creative, I don't just mean the writing but the buying of old furniture and doing it up. A kind of mind that probably enjoyed thinking of ways to make things better than they are by say....sticking a flashlight on them. I must have a look actually and see if that was an old army trick used on night patrol or anything. Or does anyone know already if it was?

Re: The Pumpkin Eater by Harold Pinter

Quote :

Most of the story is based on two issues: Jo's predilection for childbearing and Jake's extramarital affairs. The question of Jo's fertility is first broached by her psychiatrist. He suggests that she may feel uncomfortable with the messiness or vulgarity of sex, and that she may be using childbirth to justify it to herself. This does not prevent her from becoming pregnant again, but she follows suggestions by Jake and her doctor that she have an abortion and be sterilised, and she seems happy after the operation.

Could be a reason why the pumpkin was placed over the genital area on the skeleton?

I found these two statements to be somewhat comparable. The Use of 'circle' and 'spot' in reference to light.

Interesting observations Trav,I also notice that both Manalli & Z have an odd spacing in the word 'CIRCLE',although not in the same spot. I think that Manalli in general has odd spacing in some of his words,and we know that Z does. Perhaps,if they write the same word in both cursive & then print it, the spacing remains but it shifts to a different ppart of the word??? And of course, is that a 3 stroke K in the word 'DESK' by Manalli?

I followed the Manalli discussion only a bit...but I think that Manalli doesn´t match the Z sketches at all. Also his handwriting, although similar, differs a lot. Manalli is writing with the direction of the letters to the left, Z rather writing to the right. Letters such as l, s etc. don´t match at all, even if Manalli wrote the Th quite closely together. Is there some main point that would attach him to one of the Z murders? Many people could´ve been the Z, but what ties him directly to one of his killings or letters?

It is as in the song from Bonaparte, too much: You know James Joyce, I like your voice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKolJFvqniQ

QT

Quicktrader wrote:

I followed the Manalli discussion only a bit...but I think that Manalli doesn´t match the Z sketches at all. Also his handwriting, although similar, differs a lot. Manalli is writing with the direction of the letters to the left, Z rather writing to the right. Letters such as l, s etc. don´t match at all, even if Manalli wrote the Th quite closely together. Is there some main point that would attach him to one of the Z murders? Many people could´ve been the Z, but what ties him directly to one of his killings or letters?

It is as in the song from Bonaparte, too much: You know James Joyce, I like your voice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKolJFvqniQ

QT

As far as the slants in writing,stand Zodiac's straight up and suddenly they look like Manalli's alot more. Its obvious that Z likely would have tried to disguise his writing. Show me another suspect with the same writing habits & similarities,or one that uses all of the same words,or another POI who ueses the word 'shall' as frequently as both Manalli & Zodiac did,or one that talks about killing people,and acts of violence like Manalli,or one that mentions Joyce's book filled wth the very same misspelled words used by Zodiac,or one that was writing a book called 'Paradise' at the same time Z used the term 'slaves in paradise', or a suspect that used the phrase "hang by their thumbs" the same way Zodiac did later on. I dont think there is as good a suspect as Manalli at least on paper. I have gone beyond whether people look like the sketch or not. Thats a matter of opinion,of course,you dont think he looks like Z base on photos you are seeing from the 1950's. None of know how he looked in 1969.

Quicktrader, two things you wrote caught my attention:

"Is there some main point that would attach him to one of the Z murders? Many people could´ve been the Z, but what ties him directly to one of his killings or letters?"
My answer is,go back and read this entire thread.

Then you wrote:
"I followed the Manalli discussion only a bit"
Again, go back and read the ENTIRE thread,and see if you have a change of heart.

Morf Wrote:

Quote :

Its obvious that Z likely would have tried to disguise his writing.

There's a possibility that he wrote on a un-even surface. Something that might have been corrugated or similar. If this was the case it would account for how and where the spacing occurred in Zodiac's writing. That plus the slanting would add up to a reasonable distortion compared to normal writing. I actually have another theory but I'm not 100% sold on it but I will, at some point, try to explain it so that everyone can give it a go and see.

Here's the thread regarding the writing on an uneven surface.

https://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t1265-this-page-is-warped-and-more

traveller1st wrote:

Morf Wrote:

Quote :

Its obvious that Z likely would have tried to disguise his writing.

There's a possibility that he wrote on a un-even surface. Something that might have been corrugated or similar. If this was the case it would account for how and where the spacing occurred in Zodiac's writing. That plus the slanting would add up to a reasonable distortion compared to normal writing. I actually have another theory but I'm not 100% sold on it but I will, at some point, try to explain it so that everyone can give it a go and see.

Here's the thread regarding the writing on an uneven surface.

https://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t1265-this-page-is-warped-and-more

I personally think that Z turned his arm,or the paper,in such a way that he was writing almost sideways,thus causing his letters to appear to be slanted so much. I recall that you turned some of Zodiac's letters straight up like normal,and they looked pretty similar to Manalli's

morf13 wrote:

I personally think that Z turned his arm,or the paper,in such a way that he was writing almost sideways,thus causing his letters to appear to be slanted so much. I recall that you turned some of Zodiac's letters straight up like normal,and they looked pretty similar to Manalli's

Yes, that's pretty much what I was thinking. My theory was that for parts of it he may have written up (EDIT: or DOWN)the page whilst it was turned. It involves holding the pen more like an artist would if they were shading rather than holding it as if you were writing.

I tried it and it looked pretty damn good. In fact I found that I could only do it by holding the pen in that certain way. Holding it in a writing position made it practically useless but holding it in a shading position I was able to write and it automatically caused a dramatic slant, especially on things like the lower case d and also made me do things like a rounded lowercase h. Also, on some attempts it caused my baseline to drop towards the end quite dramatically as well.

Seriously. I can't even look at Manalli's writing anymore without finding something.

This shows use of language similar to Zodiac. "Please help me" and also "You will notice "(from the letter concerning the pencel (sic) flashlight).

Those are incidental though. The important bit is that 's' on the end of 'this' and 'was'. I think that's the only instance that Zodiac does that because when I spotted in Manalli's writing I immediately knew I'd seen it before and that means I must have made a note of it in my head as unique and therefore something to keep an eye out for.

Trav,I gotta give you credit, you keep finding more stuff when I thought we had the bulk of it. These little common 'quirks' only add to the similarity. I also loved the little 'half w's' that you had noted between Z & Manalli.

Yes. He's a veritable treasure trove this guy and I know there's more to come with the handwriting.

It would be great if we had a solid code/cryptography connection but to be honest I wouldn't be too surprised if we don't. I mean it's a pretty big tell in this whole thing and I would imagine it would be something that the Zodiac would have kept under wraps in everyday life.

As previously stated there's the joyce/bryce possibility with regards where the idea for using codes might have come from. Manalli himself may have tried to crack those codes. There's also the history of prison gangs using prison libraries to research and create their own codes so there's that angle as well. And finally there's the good old public libraries which we know Manalli frequented. I wonder what the protocol is in pulling someone's library records after they are dead. Assuming of course that they still exist somewhere.

traveller1st wrote:

Yes. He's a veritable treasure trove this guy and I know there's more to come with the handwriting.

It would be great if we had a solid code/cryptography connection but to be honest I wouldn't be too surprised if we don't. I mean it's a pretty big tell in this whole thing and I would imagine it would be something that the Zodiac would have kept under wraps in everyday life.

As previously stated there's the joyce/bryce possibility with regards where the idea for using codes might have come from. Manalli himself may have tried to crack those codes. There's also the history of prison gangs using prison libraries to research and create their own codes so there's that angle as well. And finally there's the good old public libraries which we know Manalli frequented. I wonder what the protocol is in pulling someone's library records after they are dead. Assuming of course that they still exist somewhere.

Plus by Manalli teaching at San Quenton, he may have learned some crafty tricks,and heard some interesting stories.

Quote :

Plus by Manalli teaching at San Quenton, he may have learned some crafty tricks,and heard some interesting stories.

Yup that's what I was thinking.

I mean a lot of the Zodiac stuff, the codes, the bombs I can see it all being smokescreen stuff. The 408 you think, oh this guy is trained in codes but then it turns out to be a relatively simple substitution cipher. Then then monster that is the 340, which many feel was made more complicated as an angry response to the 408 being cracked but anyone who was trained in codes would know that it would be cracked so I don't necessarily see the 340 as that kind of response. I could see it being more of an attempt to bolster the misdirection of code training and since it has never been cracked I would say he was pretty pleased with himself. Job done. He then doesn't produce anymore ciphers.

Hi,

have read over the forum again and I still doubt stronger connections to especially the typical Z murders...although his handwriting is very close to Z, I rather would put Manalli to the Santa Rosa murders - if his drawing indeed connects him to Kim Wendy Allen.

My reasons for doubting him to be Z:

- Handwriting differs somehow (left/right tendency), some letters match but not all the time - although this is the strongest hint imho
- Manalli doesn´t look like the sketch or even Welsh, 6'3'' is a bit too tall, strong eyebrowes/nose have never been mentioned by e.g. Kathleen Johns
- Drawings that were found in connection with Kim Wendy Allen would rather link him to the Sonoma/Eureka/Santa Rosa hitchhiking murders, namely: Marie Antoinette Anstey*, Eva Lucienn Blau, Maureen Sterling + Yvonne Weber*, Jeanette Kamahele, Kim Wendy Allen*, Lori Lee Kursa*, Therese Dian Walsh, Carolyn Nadine Davis*, Nancy D. Feusi, Janet Lee Bowman, Susan Lori Dye, Karen Frances Fisher, Victoria Lynn Schneider, Cheryl Schille Wyant (the '*' means that one or two earrings had been missing from the victim, so there is a connection between these cases somehow)
- Words like 'shall' or 'paradise' are rather frequent, even 'hang by thumbs' could've been a common word at that period of time
- Manalli supposedly was ruled out via prints, as mentioned before

I think IF Manalli was a killer, he was mainly responsible for the hitchhikers in the Santa Rosa region, eventually up to Ukiah and Eureka. What I am missing is his connection to various guns, knives, ropes, hood, his slow speech, his cars connected to lover lane murders, Darlene Ferrin connection etc..just my thoughts. I also had Arthur Lee Allen (he had dead animals in his trailer...ugh) suspected for some of the child murders.

QT

Well I am not going to try and sell Manalli as a suspect,I personally dont care who likes him or not, everybody can think what they want. But I think the similarities speak for themselves. Again,show me any suspect that used the word 'shall' as much as Manalli, that wrote a story called PARADISE at the very time Zodiac used that word,that used the term "hang by their thumbs", that mentioned a book filled with the very same misspelled words used by Zodiac,that spoke of violent acts & murder,etc,etc,etc...along with all of the similar writing. I just dont think there IS a suspect that has been presented that you could check off all of these items the way you can with Manalli. And as far as Manalli having been ruled out by police via prints,thats simply NOT TRUE

morf13 wrote:

My answer is,go back and read this entire thread.

I don't think that's entirely fair to tell someone that they need to read 35+ pages to get an answer to a question.

Saying something like, "it's not just one thing, you need to see everything in comparison to get the whole picture" is basically saying the same thing, but it doesn't come off as "I don't feel like explaining it to you."

I know that you have made a couple posts that summarize the main points and that is a common thing in these long threads. It might be more helpful to direct a person to those posts.

duckking2001 wrote:

morf13 wrote:

My answer is,go back and read this entire thread.

I don't think that's entirely fair to tell someone that they need to read 35+ pages to get an answer to a question.

Saying something like, "it's not just one thing, you need to see everything in comparison to get the whole picture" is basically saying the same thing, but it doesn't come off as "I don't feel like explaining it to you."

I know that you have made a couple posts that summarize the main points and that is a common thing in these long threads. It might be more helpful to direct a person to those posts.

Well said...there ARE a few summaries(tried to add things as they were found). I too do not want to look thru 35 pages of stuff, but suggest that anybody who wants to look into Manalli deeper, should read the 35 pages to see all of it rather than a few summaries. They may find things that they dont agree with, things they were not aware of, things that they find interesting, etc...Sorry, wasnt trying to tell you "I dont feel like explaining it to you"

Agreeing, first read then comment. Some coincidences, little facts - thats all I mention. Handwriting & sketches probably not enough, also not possible to rule him out yet.

QT

Quicktrader wrote:

Agreeing, first read then comment. Some coincidences, little facts - thats all I mention. Handwriting & sketches probably not enough, also not possible to rule him out yet.

QT

My goal is to look at suspects & POI's, and rule them out, either by our own means, or thru Law Enforcement. I can tell you this much, Manalli's prints were not compared against Zodiac's, and thats a fact.

Quicktrader wrote:

I followed the Manalli discussion only a bit...but I think that Manalli doesn´t match the Z sketches at all. Also his handwriting, although similar, differs a lot. Manalli is writing with the direction of the letters to the left, Z rather writing to the right. Letters such as l, s etc. don´t match at all, even if Manalli wrote the Th quite closely together. Is there some main point that would attach him to one of the Z murders? Many people could´ve been the Z, but what ties him directly to one of his killings or letters?

It is as in the song from Bonaparte, too much: You know James Joyce, I like your voice.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKolJFvqniQ

QT

I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread but will repeat it since it is directly relevant. Having spoken to several handwriting analysts in the past, the first thing they've told me is that the slant of handwriting is not usually taken into account since it is the most obvious and simplest way a person will try to disguise their style. In actual fact it does very little to hide the construction of letters or even spacing. Try it yourself, you will find it is pretty easy to write either slanting forward backwards or if you already do either, to write straight. It is an inclination and has nothing to do with the formation of the characters. Then compare the letters to your normal writing and you will see how similar their construction is.

In fact, this is the most interesting thing about the Manalli investigation by Trav and actually (for me anyway) the change in slant adds to the case rather than detracting from it.