More on Don Bujok

For your info Azazel, I am the ONLY person that can change,or adjust privacy & PM settings. No other Mods have that power,and nobody purposely made Kevin's PM's visible. These were PM's sent to Kevin. One of which was my full name & address. Do you really think I would make that public on purpose? Get real, this was no conspiracy to hurt Kevin. Kevin may have even changed something in his own personal settings, I dont know for sure. I only know that I made VISITOR MESSAGES disabled, since that is where the posts were being displayed.

Lets move on back to Bujok as a POI. I agree, I dont want to see people here just to harass Kevin, or shit on his POI,but if they have legitimate concerns or questions about Bujok, they should be able to post them

Yes indeed they should. And people should stop copying parts from this forum and pasting it on Toms board. Though they show their real agenda over there.
Not that hard to speculate that someone might thought about the posibility to find more dirt in Kevins personal messages.
But if you are the only one able to read membersl pm:s and change visability and you by some accident made Kevins pm:s visable I apologize.
So I apologize.

I have avoided posting here for a month or so, letting it alone for those who are interested in this POI.

But now I have a few thoughts.

Nothing indicates to me Bujok has the intelligence to devise unbreakable codes.

The issue of Zodiac probably killing Bates in 1966 and almost certainly do the writings, in the opinion of the FBI, Cal DOJ and SFPD experts, has already been mentioned. IMO I just don't see how anyone can be Zodiac who was in prison in 1966. But others disagree and thats fine.

Here is my question.

Bujok is paroled 12/17/68? In my experience, it takes one day for the letter from the parole board to arrive at the prison, and then at least 24 hours to process the release. But here it is said Bujok walked out of prison on 12/17/68. Okay, fair enough.

The problem is in my experience a person has 24 to 48 hours to report IN PERSON to their parole officer. At that time he must give the address and phone number of where he will be staying. He is subject to inspection and search any time, 24 hours a day. If a curfew is attached to the parole he must be home at night when called. He also must supply the address and phone number of an employer. If he does not have an employer, he must turn in every week the names and addresses of placed he has applied for employment.

How does Bujok conform to these rules (or one like them) and still go to to California to do a murder on 12/20/68? Is it possible? Yes, I admit it is possible. But I say highly unlikely.

Also problematic is this - we know Zodiac has two things on 12/2068. He has a car and a gun. Bujok walks out of prison on 12/17/68 with $20 in his pocket. Where does he get the money to buy a good working car to take him to California in the winter? And how does an ex felon cop killer on parole buy a gun?

Also, IIRC somewhere in the FBI files it mentions that based on the "Deer Lodge" comment all recent releases from Deer Lodge prison has their fingerprints checked against possible Zodiac prints such as those in the cab.

Maybe someone can find that in the FBI files.

However, and nobody wants to believe me, those are not Zodiac's prints in the cab. Paul Holes told me "we don't know whose prints those are in the cab, so many people get in and put of a cab".

So Kevin B I would ask you to consider the points and questions I raise, but don't give up your research on this suspect if and when it comes back that he does not match the cab prints.

Kevin B has done a commenable job of research and I applaud him for following through and trying to see if his POI can be eliminated. I may fault him for at times early on overstating things a little but we all make mistakes. Maybe his research will pay off and Bujok will be indentified as the Zodiac.

If Kevin or anyone has direct comments or questions I will respond, otherwise I will likely let this thread alone again for a month or more and leave it to those who are interested in this POI.

AK Wilks wrote:

but don't give up your research on this suspect if and when it comes back that he does not match the cab prints.

rand wrote:

AK Wilks wrote:

but don't give up your research on this suspect if and when it comes back that he does not match the cab prints.

I think the facts and evidence such as 1966 imprisonment and the parole rules show Bujok was very likely NOT Zodiac, however, I don't think the cab prints are from Zodiac, and those I have talked to in LE don't think those are very likely from Z either, so I am just telling Kevin my opinion, don't give up his research just based on a non-match to the cab prints.

Azazel wrote:

Yes indeed they should. And people should stop copying parts from this forum and pasting it on Toms board. Though they show their real agenda over there.

Curious which parts you are speaking of Azazel. I must of missed the copied stuff. ??

We do discuss it there as it was first brought to light there (not by Kevin), as were several newspaper articles. The conversation does continue.

AK Wilks wrote:

And how does an ex felon cop killer on parole buy a gun?

Another ex-con.

tahoe27 wrote:

AK Wilks wrote:

And how does an ex felon cop killer on parole buy a gun?

Another ex-con.

So, given one day for travel, in two days a newly released prisoner finds a criminal to buy a gun from, in Montana? Maybe.

Where does he get the MONEY to buy a good working car and a gun?

AK Wilks wrote:

tahoe27 wrote:

AK Wilks wrote:

And how does an ex felon cop killer on parole buy a gun?

Another ex-con.

So, given one day for travel, in two days a newly released prisoner finds a criminal to buy a gun from, in Montana? Maybe.

Where does he get the MONEY to buy a good working car and a gun?

Connections from a friend or family member. Cons know how to work other cons, especially if someone owes someone a favor. Not saying this happen...just saying it's possible. There's a lot of things possible that us as arm chair researchers are not going to be able to tap into...no matter how good we are.

AK Wilks wrote:

Nothing indicates to me Bujok has the intelligence to devise unbreakable codes.

Any moron can do that AK. Here, watch me:

NH*_:PIU^^%(LLJHY(*)()_)_)K

No one can solve that, because I just banged on the keyboard.

Maybe with a few Ceasar shifts...

They could also be valid codes with simple transpositions that haven't been discovered.

Or in pig Latin...

bentley wrote:

AK Wilks wrote:

Nothing indicates to me Bujok has the intelligence to devise unbreakable codes.

Any moron can do that AK. Here, watch me:

NH*_:PIU^^%(LLJHY(*)()_)_)K

No one can solve that, because I just banged on the keyboard.

Maybe with a few Ceasar shifts...

They could also be valid codes with simple transpositions that haven't been discovered.

Or in pig Latin...

True.

But the longer the code, if it complies with basic code principles, the better the chances it can be broken. Police and FBI have broken hundreds and hundreds of tough codes, including those devised by the mafia, drug cartels, the KGB, prison gangs, etc.

For me, the Zodiac is likely someone of high intelligence, with at least some background or training in codes and/or mathematics, in order to create elaborate codes that have defied solution. (Unless they are gibberish, but the FBI says no to that and so do I).

Bujok does not strike me as very intelligent, and I see no evidence he had knowledge of or even any interest in codes.

------------------

Did Bujok even know how to drive?

He would not have had a valid license when released, so if he drove to CA, had he been pulled over, he would have been arrested for driving without a license, and for parole violation for leaving the state (and being in possession of a gun if he was Zodiac).

Azazel wrote:

Well, that includes you too Nin. This is tiresome. (Not personally Nin, but the neverending "I dont care about this thread but I need to express my invaluable negative opinion for those interested. The news for everyone is that Kevin is the reason this thread is still moving forward. For example, since you Nin tell Kevin to stay on topic, please explain where he has disturbed your research on Bujok. ..

First of all I don't like to be categorized as:

Kevin B wrote:

..Tom’s people are trying to find what I can give you a heads up on already….

I have tried to make that point clear via pm to Kevin, and it is still happening.



Second, you may have noticed that I share anything that comes up with anyone's poi fit.

Third, I have told Kevin more than once that Bujok is a fine suspect. Trying to exclude a poi is easier and can save much work prior to extensive investigation. So we scrutinize the poi in a respectful way.

Fourth, I still have not seen one bit of a handwriting sample of Bujok. Why the secrecy? Kevin has posted so much info already, no need to keep it back.

And for your attention, I have never said Kevin disturbed my research on Bujok. I said Kevin needs to stay on track like everyone else.

And that's all I will say, since you asked me to explain.

-Nin

Donald Lee Bujok was stationed at Fort Ord Monterey Bay California. Here is a picture of the wool pleated pants they wore. Zodiac's pants were described as pleated. They were also described as being either dark blue, rust or black; depending on which murder site we are talking about. They were also described as wool. Here is a sample of the uniforms they wore and Donald would have worn at Fort Ord. Also a picture drawn by Robert Graysmith of Zodiac at Lake Berrysessa. Robert Graysmith did one hell of a job keeping this case alive! Thank God for him!

AK Wilks wrote:

Where does he get the MONEY to buy a good working car and a gun?

Well, AK, as near as I can figure from this post of Kevin's written in reply to IBF Oct. 17 on page 21 of this thread,

Quote :

Here is what I wrote” I'll comment as I have before on this issue. The date stated is the date he left. According to my sources in Montana which include prison officials. Each Inmate would get a bus ticket and a little cash (maybe $25.00) and would be watched until he was to the edge of town. They would have to report to their parole officer once a month. Remember, Bujok lived 200 miles away from Deer Lodge. Bujok had 2 cars one a '57' Chevy pickup and a '61' Buick Skylark. Interesting to note: both were 52" to 52" inside wheel to inside wheel. What I did edit was the amount of money they Montana State Prison Parole Board) gave. I wrote $200.00 but it was supossed to be $25.00. That is what the Deputy Warden told me and when I found it I corrected it. Don's family kept the cars for him. Don left prison full of rage I am sure! No more editing for me.... You stand corrected! How about an apology

Bujok had two vehicles which his family had kept for him. One was a '57 Chevy pick-up and the other was a '61 Buick Skylark.

Bujok had been hitchhiking and a LE officer stopped to speak with him. Bujok shot the officer and stole his car. I do not know how Bujok could have owned a brand new Chevy pick-up and then bought a '61 Buick Skylark while in prison but that's what it sounds like to me after reading Kevin's post. Kevin has repeatedly mentioned those two vehicles in regards to the wheel track width and the LB crime scene.

Seagull,

If you read the post carefully, Kevin says he left with $25.00.

There are no records of his work detail and there are records of other inmates so we must infer he did not work in prison, to the best of our knowledge.

Gas, Food, Toll Highways, repairs ( think tires!) and lodging( if any) would have eaten that by Oregon.

Unless he stole gas, a gun, knife, nylon rope, a pen light and anything else he would need at LB it seems $25 would not suffice....even in 1968.

In Bonus Fides wrote:

Seagull,

If you read the post carefully, Kevin says he left with $25.00.

There are no records of his work detail and there are records of other inmates so we must infer he did not work in prison, to the best of our knowledge.

Gas, Food, Toll Highways, repairs ( think tires!) and lodging( if any) would have eaten that by Oregon.

Unless he stole gas, a gun, knife, nylon rope, a pen light and anything else he would need at LB it seems $25 would not suffice....even in 1968.

September 14, 2011 Interview ex-Captain Deer Lodge Prison. September 14th 2011 9:00pm EST From my notes

I asked the ex-Captain from Deer Lodge Prison when their responsibility for a prison inmate ended and when the inmate was paroled, what was provided them for their new found freedom? He said, "They were given a bus ticket and $25.00 and watched until the bus crossed the county line and that was where their responsibility ended." He also told me, "Inmates were also paid and it depended what job they had and where they were on the totem pole how much they received.

The average pay was about 25 cents a day but inmates could make as much as 35cents a day. It ranged from 15cents all the way up to 35cents. Inmates had a certain amount put into a savings account for themselves as well.

An inmate serving a 10 year sentence as Don had could leave prison with as much as $200 or more if they made enough money during that time served." Parolees were told to report to their parole officer once a month and some were granted special permission to leave the state provided they let their parole officer know where they were. Some procured jobs from want ads before they even left prison. Don Bujok took a job as a salesman with a chemical company.

Kevin R. Brooks 2011

It was 10 years later he got the car from his family. Not a brand new '57' chevy! He got out in '68 and was left a '61 Buick Skylark from his dad and the pickup truck. I will post a picture of it.

Was it a 52 pickup?

Kevin B wrote:

It was 10 years later he got the car from his family. Not a brand new '57' chevy! He got out in '68 and was left a '61 Buick Skylark from his dad and the pickup truck. I will post a picture of it.

I'm sorry Kevin, the way you write is confusing for me I guess. First you say that Bujok's family kept the vehicles for him. That sounds to me like they kept the vehicles for him while he was in prison.

Now you say that when Bujok got out in 1968 he was left the pick-up and Skylark by his father. Now that sounds to me like when he died the father left the vehicles to Bujok. But Don Bujok's father Frank did not die until 1973.

Montana Death Index, 1860-2007 about Frank Bujok
Name: Frank Bujok
Age: 69
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1904
Death Date: 17 Sep 1973
Death County: Yellowstone
Residence County: Musselshell
Marital Status: Married Or Separated (Married)
Index Number: 4958

Source: Montana State Genealogical Society

I'm not trying to hassle you. I would just like the facts as you know them in a clear and concise manner without adjustment being made all the time. If the vehicles were Don Bujok's fathers and the father let Don drive them for his work or whatever then just say that. You have consistantly said the vehicles were Don Bujok's at the time of the Zodiac crimes.

What do we know about Zodiac?



I will take you step by step why I think Donald Bujok is Zodiac. Here goes. I’ll make it short and sweet and will not edit.

‘Lake Herman Road’ David Faraday & Betty Lou Jensen:
The first murder on Lake Herman Road we had very little evidence. Do you agree? The only evidence I remember from that crime scene is the bullet casings. The girl was shot five times in the back as she ran away and wasn’t sexually molested. The boy was shot behind the left ear. Both died no witnesses. Not much to go on.

Blue Rock Springs: Mike Mageau & Darlene Ferrin:

Another lover’s lane murder; a couple both shot but the boy survived. The boy was shot multiple times and the girl was as well. Again bullet casings were retrieved and the difference was although the girl died the boy didn’t. Although in severe pain Mike Mageau did get a look at the man. He said this: July 4th 1969: the man appeared to have a large face and was not wearing glasses. He looked to be between 26 and 30 years old; had short, curly, light brown hair. To Mike Mageau “the man’s build was beefy, heavyset without being blubbery fat. He had a slight pot belly combed hair up in a kind of pompadour.

Please Note: Bujok was 21 years old in the '57' mug on the left. He weighed 200 pounds on a 5'9 1/2 inch stocky frame. Ed Edwards mentions on page 228 of his book he lost 30 pounds in Deer Lodge as the food was not good and the guards got the good stuff, inmates the slop and the rest sold. Note: look how much weight Donald Bujok lost by the time he was 25 and how much he aged. Note the little curl in the front of his military cut just as Mageau described. Know he would probably have gained weight as he aged and got closer to his release date. Also please read my posts carefully as many of the questions I have answered already.

I'm still struggling with the information posted here by Azazel a couple days ago, that Edwards claimed Bujok was known as Zodiac at Deer Lodge. So Bojok is Zodiac and talks about slaves for afterlife at Deer Lodge, and the only guy who remembers it is the guy promoting his new book? And Bujok actually then calls himself Zodiac during the crime spree? And LE, despite apparently being notified of this (this was all in a newspaper article), never checked his prints?

Have any of you ever had a friend in prison before? I have and I have visited him a few times. They do have jobs, they do get paid and they can bye goodies at what today is called the canteen or commissary. They don't get paid too much and I already posted a few posts back how much they got paid at Deer Lodge.

Here in Florida you can send a certain amount of writing materials; 5 pages I think, a book of stamps, and you can deposit money into their accounts as well. Donald Bujok worked a number of jobs while in prison. He worked in the kitchen as a clerk, and in the upholstery shop and other jobs from what I was told.

Deer Lodge Prison was itself a self-supporting community to some degree. I do not have it on paper but from a conversation I had with the ex-deputy warden. The information about the cars was from Bujok's family. I'm sorry I am not a writer that's for sure.... That's why they have ghost-writers. I’m trying harder to be as clear and concise as I can but truth be known I’m exhausted!

Deer Lodge Montana prison was a hell-hole and was not far removed from the old West. It did not have plumbing in some areas and inmates would urinate and defecate in what was called a “honey-bucket." Sometimes they would use that "honey" to throw at the guards. Bujok spent a lot of time reading and his family confirmed he was into science fiction. From what I'm told, this guy was a real loner.

I am still wondering Kevin, how long did they say until SFPD & NAPA get back to you on the prints comparison?

morf13 wrote:

I am still wondering Kevin, how long did they say until SFPD & NAPA get back to you on the prints comparison?

Morf, I will tell you this.... They have had so many Zodiac tips that frankly if the real one has or does come in it may never get looked at. I did what I said I would do and am waiting. Julia Brewer my dear friend has done all that she can do as well. She is a hero! I would not expect anything soon.... Zam and you were right! We will see.... They gave no time line. They did say however, if it is to be done right it takes time.....

Kevin,

You are the one ALLEGING Don Bujok made it to California within 36 hours of his release, killed 2 strangers in a foreign state, drove back to claim responsibility 10 months later and did this why??? ( and on a $25-200 budget to boot)

The onus of proof is on LE or you ( as the proponent) to show Bujok; was released within 24 hous of 12/17/69; owned these vehicles ( DMV records), worked in prison ( this would add to his bankroll), immediately fled to California with little to no money, and then subsequently returned to California( or Poste Restanted 17 letters from MT) later ,many times, to mail the ciphers/letters, etc.

You have failed to show, reasonably or realistically,that ANY of this was possible in respect to motive, timeline, budget nor opportunity yet you continue to obfuscate me/us for any point that falls under scrutiny, and usually respond with nonsense, edited retractions, exaggerations,excuses or outright fallacies.

The case on Bujok rests on $25, 2 crap vehicles, 3 chords and the truth, and a hell of a lot of luck!! (not to mention suspect handwriting comparisons that have been purposefully withheld upon request and pictures of some non factor news paper print shop in it's stead.)

Show us the money!

IBF

my, my, this thread is getting testy. The way i see it, Kevin and NIN and many others have done a marvelous job with this -- simply extraordinary! The fingerprints will soon be compared and we'll know one way or the other. I'm fairly certain I know which way it's going to go, but I hope for everyone's sake that I'm wrong.