Deborah Gay Furlong and Kathy Snoozy

But then why didn'the take credit for it on Bryan's car door?

tahoe27 wrote:

But then why didn'the take credit for it on Bryan's car door?

Good Point. Same can be asked for other suspected Z crimes, like D&E, and Bates. If Z was their killer, did he not mention those early crimes because he didnt want police to know he was down in southern CA, or did he not consider them "zodiac" crimes (perhaps he felt they were prior to , and unrealted tohis Zodiac persona..if he was their killer)

Those I get.

But if you mention starting collecting of slaves, he would be mentioning all victims from LHR on. Why not take credit for the August murders in September, but he decides to in November. ??

tahoe27 wrote:

Those I get.

But if you mention starting collecting of slaves, he would be mentioning all victims from LHR on. Why not take credit for the August murders in September, but he decides to in November. ??

Maybe because he actually committed the LHR crime, the BRS crime, the Berryessa crime, and the Stine murder. He actually likely did all of those, and confirmed them. Perhaps after that, as an afterthought, he thought the police were onto him, so he decided to simply take credit for other murders without taking the risk of getting caught by doing his own.

Techincally, and maybe experts could tell us for sure, but Zodiac's confirmed killings, makes him seem more of a "spree killer" as opposed to a serial killer (although he was that too). Many serial killers have confirmed murders months or years apart, and an ongoing process. Zodiac really did the majority of his confirmed activity over a 3 month stretch. There was the long lag in between the LHR killings and the BRS killings(I personally think it is because Zodiac was someone police talked to, and he wanted time to go by to make sure he was no longer under suspicion), but when Z came back he really was active until after the Stine murder. I really think he got a wake up call when he realised that he almost was caught and there was a sketch of him flotaing around. I think it is even possible that he stopped killing, but still enjoyed taunting the police with the occasional letters.

Z only took credit for the Bates case, after it was linked to him publicly. Was that because he wasnt aware of the Bates case, or did he not take credit for it because he didnt want police to know he was down in Southern CA? Who knows? I am actually a little surprised that Z never took credit for Domingos/Edwards after it was reported in the early 70's that Z might have been responsible for their murders.

morf13 wrote:

I am actually a little surprised that Z never took credit for Domingos/Edwards after it was reported in the early 70's that Z might have been responsible for their murders.

Maybe those hit a little TOO close to home.

To me, Zodiac either killed in August or he didn't.

He never gave us a wishy-washy answers when it came to his murders--in the beginning. He wanted everyone to know about them. He absolutely would have claimed August murders (in Sept) if he were responsible. He would have no doubt included them on that car door...imo. THAT is what he did. Bragged.

He was either full of crap...or LB wasn't Zodiac. Just my take of course.

Karl Werner was convicted of murdering Furlong, Snoozy, and another girl named Kathy Bilek.

According to "Knife Murders: San Jose Student Held in Slaying Of Three Girls," by Paul Avery (San Francisco Chronicle, 4-30-1971, pp. 1, 28), Werner was arrested on April 29th, 1971, and was "a brilliant San Jose City College student." He was described, interestingly enough, as being "outstanding in physics and mathematics and, as a hobby, has been building his own computer."

Werner attended high school with Kathy Snoozy and Deborah Furlong, and at the time of their murders in August 1969, lived only a few blocks from them, so it seems doubtful they were completely random murders; he may not have known them personally, but probably saw them at school and in his neighborhood.

Avery wrote that Werner stabbed Kathy Bilek 49 times on April 11th, 1971, and it would seem that, in contrast to Furlong and Snoozy, she was randomly targeted by Werner, because the teenage girl who tipped police said that on April 9th, a strange man had approached her in Villa Montalvo County Park to go hiking with him, the same park where Bilek would be murdered two days later. Avery related that "she became frightened when he became angry after she refused... and ran from him to an area where there were more people around." Park rangers identified him from her description, because he was a frequent visitor to the park. Police recovered a knife from his rooming house, but did not confirm whether it was the murder weapon.

This thread began with a reprint of a 6 August 1969 article from the front page of the San Francisco Chronicle. Here is another article from that same page about the same crime...

1969 article linking Collins and Andrew to California killings...

------------------------------------------------
San Francisco Chronicle August 6, 1969 - front page
Michigan Suspect Linked Directly to Salinas Case
By George Murphy
Chronicle Correspondent

Salinas

John Norman Collins, charged with the most recent of seven coed slayings in Michigan, was linked directly as a suspect yesterday in the murder of a Salinas teenager.

The handsome 22-year-old student who police said had "a magnetic effect on young girls," met and made a date with a close friend of Roxie Ann Phillips, 17, the day before Miss Phillips disappeared June 30, investigators learned.

Miss Phillips' nude body was found with a red belt around her neck near Carmel July 13. She had been strangled to death and, as with several of the Michigan victims, one earring was missing.

Monterey County Sheriff's Detective Darol Smith said "Roxie Ann was well aware of the existence of Collins."

Captain Smith said Collins "picked up" Nancy Albrecht, 17, a visitor from Fort Worth and a friend of Miss Phillips, on Pajaro street in Salinas June 29.

He drove her to the home of her sister and brother-in-law, where she was staying, and spent 30 minutes talking with Miss Albrecht and her sister, Frances Gautier, Smith disclosed.

He said Collins told them he was attending Eastern Michigan University and had come to Salinas in a house trailer he was "living with friends."

Captain Smith said Miss Albrect later told Miss Phillips about her meeting with Collins and described him and his car to her.

The next day, Miss Phillips disappeared. On that day, too, Collins was to have a date with Miss Albrect, but he never showed up and she never saw him again.

Trailer

The house trailer was found Friday behind the Salinas home of the grandfather of Andrew Manuel, 24, known to have come with Collins to California from Ypsilanti, Mich.
Police and FBI agents are searching for Manuel, a 6-foot-1, 235-pound Filipino-American with a tattoo, possibly of an eagle, on his left forearm.

Michigan State Police Sergeant Ken Christensen sent to Salinas for the investigation, said he "felt certain" Manuel "could be helpful."

LA

Christensen said he and his associate, Detective Tom Nasser, would probably go to Los Angeles later this week to investigate the June 23 murder of Virginia Lynn Smith, 13.
She was killed in much the same manner as the seven Michigan coeds and Miss Phillips.

Collins and Manuel left Ypsilanti, with their trailer, on June 21, and returned sometime in July, police said.

Miss Phillips, Miss Smith and a still-unidentified girl whose murdered body was found near Salinas, were killed between June 17 and July 16.

Christensen described Collins as "a very handsome, clean-cut attractive young man who seems to have a magnetic effect on young girls."

He was arrested in Michigan Friday and charged with the murder of Karen Sue Beineman, an Eastern Michigan University student.

The Ann Arbor News reported yesterday that a witness told police Collins was the driver of a car that picked up Joan Schell shortly before she became the second victim in the string of seven Michigan coed killings.

The victims were all found nude, sexually mutilated and had one of their earrings missing.

The FBI entered the case when a Federal fugitive warrant was issued for Manuel for failing to return the rented trailer.

Christensen and Detective Nasser examined the trailer, but would not disclose their findings — if any.

Smith said the police believed Manuel was "without money and without any means of transportation."

In San Jose, Chief of Detective Barton Collins said "I'd like to talk with Andrew Manuel" about the murder of Gay Furlong, 14, and Kathy Snoozy, 15.

The bodies of the girls were found savagely stabbed to death Sunday night on a San Jose hillside.

"I'd like to talk to anyone who could tell me anything about how hese two kids were killed," the San Jose chief said.

He would not speculate, however, on any link between the deaths and those of Miss Phillips and the unidentified Salinas girl.

Michigan Suspect Linked to Salinas Case - SFC 8/6/69

LINK:

http://www.maebrussell.com/1960s%20T...as%20Case.html

Thanks to Tracers for this!!!!



















[/quote]

WHY IS THIS GUYS B DAY SUCH A MYSTERY. CAN SOME ONE HELP ME OUT WITH THIS…

ALSO, DOES ANY ONE HERE KNOW OF ANY OTHER POSSIBLE NAMES LIKE “FRANCIS” THAT COULD BE CONNECTED TO THE Z CASE OTHER THAN WARNER ?

FRANC, FRANK, FRANCE, FRED, FREDRICK…ANY IDEAS WELCOME…

Check out Frank Valentine. He was a murderer who was released from Deer Lodge in 1969 and moved to California. Had family ties to Vallejo/Napa.

Quagmire wrote:

Check out Frank Valentine. He was a murderer who was released from Deer Lodge in 1969 and moved to California. Had family ties to Vallejo/Napa.

Z called in Dec 1968, October 1969, inbetween sent various letters...if he didn't sent them from prison he even might be ruled out cause of that.

Furthermore don't forget about the Deer Lodge / Feathers Lodge discussion recently...

QT

The reason why I was asking about Francis is because I generated that name running zk decrypto… where the text was generated and what it said peeked my interest, it could be just a coincidence…

A couple of things that stand out with Francis Warner are he was young and brilliant regarding physics and mathematics. What really stands out with me is that he claims to not remember the murders and also claimed to have blacked out…this concerns me because of all the Mk ultra experiments going on around that time…this would explain the accomplice theory and involvement in some but not all of the murders…

I don’t want to go down the Francis road at this time because I got a good bead on the Z mystery and I want to focus on the main players involved.

Don’t quote me on this but a young Conan Doyle wrote in one of his early books.

Sherlock Holmes to Watson, “a child has done this ghastly murder”…..

Daniel

Daniel Gillotti wrote:

WHY IS THIS GUYS B DAY SUCH A MYSTERY. CAN SOME ONE HELP ME OUT WITH THIS…

ALSO, DOES ANY ONE HERE KNOW OF ANY OTHER POSSIBLE NAMES LIKE “FRANCIS” THAT COULD BE CONNECTED TO THE Z CASE OTHER THAN WARNER ?

FRANC, FRANK, FRANCE, FRED, FREDRICK…ANY IDEAS WELCOME…

What I found as far as a birth day for Karl Werner is he was born in 1950. I don't have access to Ancestry anymore . So anyone who has it can find his exact B.D. that way.

I have a z suspect who was living in San Jose , so this has peeked my interest.
If this were a Z crime and Z lived in San Jose at that time, I doubt he would want to claim it.

The only person who I knew named Francis that had any connection to the z case was Francis Hernandez who worked at the Coronado Inn in 1969. That was where Darlene like to hang out.