Fred Manalli

thebigZ wrote:

The question mark at the end of Fred's letter looks quite similar to the question mark at the end of the Badlands letter, i.e. it looks like a "2". Jus' sayin'.

Ironically that's one thing that matches the least lol. It may be an anomaly. I have a suspicion that the question mark on the end of the citizen may be a corrected exclamation mark. I'm not 100% sure because I haven't looked into it but it occurred to me as a possibility while I was looking at it.

I have placed some of Manalli's questions beside it that are similar but I've also included a rather odd exclamation mark that is similar in construction albeit an overall different shape.




While I'm down there at the bottom of the citizen letter here's a proper Manalli Z compared to the Z in Citizen as opposed to his curley z that looks like a 3. Note the same little tick at the start. That is the strongest similarity. I wouldn't be sold totally on shape but I'm not unconvinced either - can't expect a perfect match everytime I guess and this is the only example of that type of Z that we have from Manalli, or Freda or whatever you want to call him lol

MISC-

An occasional poem or two? YEAH UNDER A DESK YOU WEIRDO lol - ok I'm back to being objective lol.

Thanks for posting those Morf and for the Jarvis papers. I'll get a glance at those now.

I notice they must have deemed it safe enough by the 80's to create the award after that nasty business with sketches and backpacks had blown over.

Well there's something anyway that ties in with the Actors workshop stuff. He studied under Herbert Blau. Don't know if that means anything yet or ever will but thought I'd mention it.

EDIT: One thing that seems to be constant is that this guy is always skint. Lkie really skint. Couldn't see him being able to afford to buy weapons via mail order and wot not.

I am going to post this in this thread, as it relates to Manalli's interests, as well as the Bates section:

The following is an excerpt from a book called CORROBORATING EVIDENCE written by William T. Rasmussen...

Can anybody tell me if number 4 is correct, and if so, what poetry is being quoted? Does he mean by the desktop writer, or the confession letter writer?
Over at the site, truecrimediary, an anonymous poster wrote "The killer was likely studying and/or reading the poetry of e.e. cummings.
e.e. cummings was a famous poet who broke the conventional rulesof poetry in such a manner"

The article in this thread that's about Manalli overseeing a student project - any way we could find some of the students whose names are listed there? Just to see what they remember about him, personality, character, whatever might be of interest.

Here's something I googled on Dan Curley.

Daniel Curley Papers, 1932-91 | Archon Sandbox
sandbox.archon.org/latest/?p=collections/controlcard&id=13655
Title: Daniel Curley Papers, 1932-91 Add to your cart. ID: 15/7/37 ... include Stanley Elkin, Roger Ebert, Hilton Kramer, Fred Manalli, John Moffitt, and C. P. Snow.

Looks like Fred was in good company! Roger Ebert, a student of Curley, the famous movie critic, and C. P. Snow, a well-known author. Four of these guys are in Wikipedia. Moffit, a televison writer and producer, is not, but seems to be quite successful. And then there's Manalli... he won an award for his writing, but that's about it. Just doesn't seem to fit in with the rest, imo. Yes, he died relatively young, but it doesn't seem like he was on track to becoming a great writer. Or great anything else. His letters to Curley don't seem particularly interesting (outside of the fact that they match Z so well!). I'm just wondering why Curley would want to keep up a correspondence with Manalli for so long.

Interesting fact. Like Manalli, Dan Curley died because of injuries sustained in a car crash. His car was struck by another vehicle as he was going through an intersection, and he died of complications of a broken neck he suffered in the crash. This was in 1988, in Florida, where he was vacationing. The obit I saw doesn't say who was driving the car Curley was in, but says that "the driver had the green light". Not sure if "driver" refers to the driver of the car Curley was in or the driver whose vehicle struck him.

If anyone's interested in reading a couple of Dan Curley's short stories, here's a link to his book of short stories, Living With Snakes. A NYTimes book reviewer said that Curley was very good at "making good stories out of bad marriages", or something like that.

www.openisbn.com/preview/082030767X/[left]

I think that Manalli was a 'Hanger-on', trying to stay in contact with these other established people that he admired. All thru his letters, he begged, pleaded, and basically wined about not being published. He had a hunger for the spotlight, and whether he was Z or not, he certainly had that in common with Z.

In one of his letters, Manalli mentions that he studied at SF college under a guy named Walter Van Tilburg.

A little about Walter Van Tilburg-

"He had several academic positions, serving for a time during the 1950s as a professor of creative writing at the University of Montana in Missoula"

"He was Assistant Professor of English at the University of Montana during 1954 and 1955. From 1956 until 1961, Clark taught at San Francisco State College in the Creative Writing Department."

That college was an hour from Deer Lodge prison. No smoking gun,and this guy had already moved onto SF by the time the riots started,just thought it was worth mentioning

Morf wrote:

Can anybody tell me if number 4 is correct, and if so, what poetry is being quoted? Does he mean by the desktop writer, or the confession letter writer?
Over at the site, truecrimediary, an anonymous poster wrote "The killer was likely studying and/or reading the poetry of e.e. cummings.
e.e. cummings was a famous poet who broke the conventional rulesof poetry in such a manner"

Not sure if this relates, but I've thought that the initials rh could refer to Robert Herrick, the Renaissance poet. First, because Herrick wrote a poem called Cherry Ripe, in which he compares the lips of Julia to cherries, and at least two more poems about how Julia's nipples, seen through the fabric of her dress, are like cherries, and, in general is pretty obsessed with the visual aesthetics of Julia and other girls. Most of these you wouldn't find in an anthology, but definitely would find Cherry Ripe. And CHERRY is a lot like CHERI. And second, because it turns out that Herrick was actually not considered a great poet during his lifetime, nor for several centuries thereafter. It wasn't until the 1960's that people took a fresh look at him, and realized the excellence of his writing!!! Here's some of his stuff, if you want to check it out. Upon Julia's Clothes is one of his most famous poems, that's the one that made me initially think of him as an inspiration for the desktop writer. And one third thing, because of the e.e. cummings style of the desktop poem - kinda makes you consider that the writer may have been thinking of poets in general when he wrote on the desk.

http://www.luminarium.org/sevenlit/herrick/herribib.htm

[left]

Herrick def seemed obsessed with Cherry...and the CHERRY VS CHERI thing is interesting

Manalli never fails to deliver the goods.

Here is another interesting factoid from Manalli,one that somebody calling themself, 'THE ZODIAC' may have been interested in-


"Apogee and perigee refer to the distance from the Earth to the moon. Apogee is the farthest point from the earth. Perigee is the closest point to the earth and it is in this stage that the moon appears larger"
seen here- http://www.moonconnection.com/apogee_perigee.phtml

morf13 wrote:

I am going to post this in this thread, as it relates to Manalli's interests, as well as the Bates section:

The following is an excerpt from a book called CORROBORATING EVIDENCE written by William T. Rasmussen...

Can anybody tell me if number 4 is correct, and if so, what poetry is being quoted? Does he mean by the desktop writer, or the confession letter writer?
Over at the site, truecrimediary, an anonymous poster wrote "The killer was likely studying and/or reading the poetry of e.e. cummings.
e.e. cummings was a famous poet who broke the conventional rulesof poetry in such a manner"

Well the poem on the desk certainly qualifies lol but there are poetic undertones in the confession letter. In fact as I was thinking about this there is almost a "little list" feel to it.

MAN'S DYING-PLACE UNCERTAIN.
by Robert Herrick


MAN knows where first he ships himself, but he
Never can tell where shall his landing be.



"draining into an uncertain death"?

traveller1st wrote:

MAN'S DYING-PLACE UNCERTAIN.
by Robert Herrick


MAN knows where first he ships himself, but he
Never can tell where shall his landing be.



"draining into an uncertain death"?

Pretty good.

morf13 wrote:

Manalli never fails to deliver the goods.

Here is another interesting factoid from Manalli,one that somebody calling themself, 'THE ZODIAC' may have been interested in-


"Apogee and perigee refer to the distance from the Earth to the moon. Apogee is the farthest point from the earth. Perigee is the closest point to the earth and it is in this stage that the moon appears larger"
seen here- http://www.moonconnection.com/apogee_perigee.phtml

Good catch. I was meaning to check out what that meant.

Here's a start to a timeline for addresses and locations. Thanks to BigZ for the Holyoke St address. Please add to or amend where necessary.


1963
961 Union St, San Francisco. Calif.

1964
462 Holyoke St., SF (living with Walter Buczeke)

1966
still at 462 Holyoke (wife Sue is also listed at the address, as well as Buczeke)

1969/1970
428 Eighth St, Santa Rosa. Calif. 95401

1973
109 Frederick St, San Francisco, Calif. 94117

1975
2353 S.Alpine Road, Rockford Il 61108

And 2 without dates

c/o Stuart - 1750 Bay Meadows, Florrisant, Missouri (I'm assuming it's around '75 as it seems to be a Christmas visit for a few days and after that he's back to Alpine Rd in Rockford)

Don't know where this one falls in the timeline but again assuming it's between 73 & 76 unless it's pre 63.

725 N.Dardiner Ave, Rockford Il.

He also mentions being being in San Leandro at the library there. Need to check for date.

EDIT: He was in Germany at some point. Don't know if that would have been with the army?

He also lived in Sebastapol.

From a letter dated Sept. 1, 1961 the San Leandro address-

532 Bancroft Ave.
San Leandro CA

Letter dated Sept. 19, 1961-

Begins attending San Francisco State College to earn credits for his masters degree.

Begins teaching part time at San Quentin Prison. Assigned to teach 5th-7th grade lauguage arts to prisoners.

From an April 6, 1963 letter address of-

961 Union St.
San Francisco

The address given when Manalli filed his DD214 military discharge with the Sonoma County Recorders Office* was-

1570 North St. #11
Santa Rosa CA

* The probable reason he would have filed his DD214 with the recorders office is that it was required to do so if he used the GI Bill to purchase a home.

Address at his death-

6665 Sebastopol Ave.
Sebastopol CA

Manalli also worked for the US Forest Service as a firespotter for a few summer seasons along with his wife, Sue. They were stationed in Mendocino County on Anthony Peak, near the Round Valley Indian Reservation.

They were also stationed at Lake Tahoe for at least one season late '60's.

Another address from a letter dated Oct. 11, 1970

PO Box 178
Guernewood Park CA

Guernewood Park is located in Sonoma County in the Russian River area about a mile west of Guerneville.

Seagull wrote:

Another address from a letter dated Oct. 11, 1970

PO Box 178
Guernewood Park CA

Guernewood Park is located in Sonoma County in the Russian River area about a mile west of Guerneville.

I see Guernewood Park has even more Zynchronicity with street names. There's a lovers lane, a Cherry Street and a Riverside Drive

Unfortunately, Curley, Emblem or Manalli's ex-wife are gone and they are the ones who would know Fred the best.

The film critic, Roger - is he still around? I can't remember - if he is, you might get some information about Curley.

Manelli bitched about his poems not being published, he wanted to teach at a better facility then SRJC (need a Ph.D.), wanted his Master's Degree from where he attended for his Bachelor's.

All in all, sounds like a very moody person.

Since he did not teach full time at the junior college, what did he do to make ends meet? I know cost-of-living was cheaper in those days, but he still had expensis. If he did nothing but write, it would give him time to plan and plot any crimes, if he committed any.

Rape and murder of women are crimes directed towards women. Although he and his wife had talked divorce in the past, perhaps he was effected by his spouse leaving him for his business partner and that anger grew and manifested until he, perhaps, took it out on innocent victims.

I am not saying he did act on his anger, but that is a possibility.

Found an interview with Hayakawa & his Wife. Looks like he had a connection of sorts to the Chronicle.


Friends and Colleagues at San Francisco State

Shearer
Who was your contact? You said it was the chairman of the English department who--?

Hayakawa
Her name was Caroline Shrodes.

Shearer
She was chair of the--

Hayakawa
The English department.

― 194 ―
Shearer
How had she known of your work?

Hayakawa
Well, in the first place, I had been invited out here for three summer sessions before I came here--'52, '53, and '54. Or maybe in '53, '54, and '55. I actually don't remember.

Mrs. Hayakawa
I think we moved to this house in '55. So that was after we lived in--was it Caroline Shrodes's? No, it wasn't Caroline Shrodes's house that we lived in.

Hayakawa
Lou Wasserman's house.

Mrs. Hayakawa
Wasserman's house, yes. Lou and Caroline Wasserman. Awfully nice people.

Shearer
They're not related to the John Wasserman of the Chronicle?

Mrs. Hayakawa
I think that's their son. We didn't meet the family, because they had moved out of the house. We met them later, and Don was a colleague of Lou Wasserman's later when he joined the staff of San Francisco State. But we were there for summer school, living in their Mill Valley house, which was nice because nobody knew about Mill Valley. We would be glad of it later. [laughter]

Shearer
What kind of a department did you find when you arrived at San Francisco State.

Hayakawa
Very cordial, very hospitable.

Shearer
I noticed that sometimes you're described as being a professor of language arts and sometimes as professor of English. Why?

Hayakawa
Language arts is a kind of School of Education term and looked down upon by the English department people. But San Francisco State was not organized originally to turn out literary scholars but to turn out English teachers for public schools. So that's why it was called the language arts department.

Shearer
Were you the only semanticist?

Hayakawa
Yes, I think. However, many of my colleagues became interested in semantics and helped me edit my journal ETC. and used some of the principles of semantics in their teaching. Caroline Shrodes was chairman of the department and gave me every encouragement.

Shearer
Who in particular was cordial or of like mind or of a stimulating mind in the department or in the school at large?

― 195 ―
Hayakawa
Oh, Caroline Shrodes to start out with. Who are special friends at San Francisco State? Richard Dettering.

Turns out that "th" thing wasn't the only cursive slip in the bus bomb letter. There's a + on the left hand side where he slips and joins the descender to the crossbar. Naturally Freddy does the same thing.

trainmaster wrote:

Although he and his wife had talked divorce in the past, perhaps he was effected by his spouse leaving him for his business partner and that anger grew and manifested until he, perhaps, took it out on innocent victims.

I am not saying he did act on his anger, but that is a possibility.

Oh yeah, I'd look for something that "set the guy off" with any suspect. I don't remember if this was brought up before, the threads gettin long... do you know when that was?