William Mentzer

AK Wilks wrote:

.... - if you believe Maury Terry.

That's the problem. Maury Terry's book is a brilliant read but his nationwide satanic conspiracy (with Mentzer as the mysterious "Manson 2" occult figure) is just too convenient. It was, after all, the era of "Satanic ritual sex abuse" reports in the media. So his publisher must have lapped Terry's tall tales up. Ironic that now that time has passed, the evidence of widespread abuse points more towards Priests than devil-worshippers (not really a surprise though, is it?).

I'm inclined to believe what Mentzer's accomplice told Larry Flynt's brother-in-law i.e. Mentzer needed a pint of wine before he could even join in the shooting of Roy Radin.

Terry's book is a great read. It does have credibility and logic issues in a few spots.

Yes there was a "Satanic Panic" and a lot - actually almost all - of these tales of ritual child abuse turned out to be false, hoaxes or doubtful.

But the Terry book is not about child abuse, it is about occult groups that murder. We know that happens - the Manson family is just one example. Terry explores issues in the Son of Sam case that have led some to think that more than one person was involved. It does seem Mentzer had some ties to Berkowitz, and to an occult group with elements in North Dakota and California. Two men, both Carr brothers I think, died under strange circumstances. Then there was the murder of ND native Arlis Perry in the Stanford Church by a "sandy haired" man - which matches Mentzer description.

Mentzer claims he killed 10 in Vietnam. Who knows? The Radin hit went pretty well, and they got away with it, and another hit Mentzer did, until he started blabbing his big mouth.

Mentzer seemed to be tied into some very rich and powerful people who were into drugs and sex orgies, and added occult rituals and "Satanism" more for thrills and kicks.

I am not convinced by Terry's claim that Berkowitz had an accomplice, though it is true some of the sketches showed a sandy haired man not looking like Berkowitz. And I don't buy Terry's claim of a nationwide Satanic network. But he did show evidence that there could be links between this "jet set" occultist group and people like Mentzer, who did kill people for money and perhaps other reasons.

Well, I haven't really seen any sources other than Terry that link Mentzer to the occult. (And, have to disagree with you that the Manson Family were an "occult group").

But even if Mentzer isn't Zodiac, at least there is a Z-SonOfSam connection of sorts... both sent letters. And Terry could well be right about the involvement of the Carr brothers in that. And his claims of a Team SonOfSam might be right too.

Rufus T Firefly wrote:

Well, I haven't really seen any sources other than Terry that link Mentzer to the occult. (And, have to disagree with you that the Manson Family were an "occult group").

But even if Mentzer isn't Zodiac, at least there is a Z-SonOfSam connection of sorts... both sent letters. And Terry could well be right about the involvement of the Carr brothers in that. And his claims of a Team SonOfSam might be right too.

Well, I thought some of what Terry wrote on Mentzer having occult links was credible. Now, some of this was rich people who were into drugs and sex, with occult trappings thrown in. But some were more serious. Mentzer definitely had ties to drug and crime groups, some of which overlapped with people into occult rituals.

How would you characterize the Manson Family? I think "occult" fits - many thought Charlie was Jesus and/or Satan. Tex Watson famously said he was there to do "the Devils work". Manson beliefs overlap and were influenced by Process Church beliefs. Wouldn't you call them "occult"?

I think Manson is fairly characterized as occult, though his beliefs merge into white power, neo-nazi, Christian apocalyptic, radical anti-government and anti-police and pro-air tree water animals. And plain nuttiness, mixed with con man and pimp raps, topped off with 60's drugs and sex!

And violence.

Yes both Z and SoS sent letters and gunned down couples.

Terry didn't convince me on SoS having a team or accomplices, but there was some credible evidence, and it is possible.

I do question if Berkowitz could have wrote all of the letters - he comes across as a moron, and some of those letters have intelligence and a bite and feel of horror to them, like some of the Jack the Ripper stuff and Zodiac stuff.

"Hello from the gutters..."

None of the prints matching anyone they've been compared to is not surprising given that LE haven't caught the right person to match them to. And as for the prints not matching one another, I'm not too surprised about that, either. The pool of prints LE has is small, and most are apparently partials. Given the number of surfaces on the human hand that prints can come from, and the fact that people have two hands...

I firmly believe that AT LEAST ONE of those prints is the real deal.

AK Wilks wrote:

Yes there was a "Satanic Panic" and a lot - actually almost all - of these tales of ritual child abuse turned out to be false, hoaxes or doubtful.

Just want to interject for the record that the above statement is actually not factual in reality. I've got 76 pages of summarised, very real, very horrific judicial cases that prove the contrary of that media inspired "Satanic Panic" claim, and the very convenient and wholesale dismissal of the documented cases.

As for Mentzer's possible involvement? It's plausible and I keep stating that there are substantial connections to all three cases: the Manson Family, Zodiac and Son(s) of Sam that should be more thoroughly investigated. In the Zodiac and Son(s) of Sam cases the m.o.'s are much too close to summarily dismiss and all three share one common goal: terrorism through murder and fear through literary missives to the newspapers. Occult sigils and trappings are found in both Z and SoS letters written in the same macabre, mocking, tone. There's much to these cases than meets the eye and time will tell the tale one fine day.

Nachtsider wrote:

Given the number of surfaces on the human hand that prints can come from, and the fact that people have two hands...

I firmly believe that AT LEAST ONE of those prints is the real deal.

Great point Nacht!

AK Wilks wrote:

How would you characterize the Manson Family? I think "occult" fits - many thought Charlie was Jesus and/or Satan. Tex Watson famously said he was there to do "the Devils work". Manson beliefs overlap and were influenced by Process Church beliefs. Wouldn't you call them "occult"?

No AK, I wouldn't characterise the Manson Family as "occult". Judging by various statements in interviews Manson is, if anything, a Christian --- and likes to imply that he's a tripped-out idiot-savant Christ himself .......I'd certainly be more inclined to characterize The Family as a Christ cult than "occult", that's for sure. Sandy & Squeaky certainly believed themselves to be disciples of someone "good" (for decades).

Manson borrowed (as you rightly say) from a variety of sources and --like most cult leaders-- ran his commune-cult on what Weber termed "Charismatic Authority". And his followers were literally hand-picked for their susceptibility (no magic required).

But pretty much none of Manson's sources could seriously be said to be "occult" (even The Process Church was nothing more than a Scient0L0gy offshoot, albeit with the trappings of old schlock-horror movies and a twisting of Catholic concepts and fear. Just another manipulation cult, not occult. ChurchOfSatan likewise, but more carny pranksterism than a cult operation).

I'm only labouring this point because I think it kinda muddies the waters to mis-label Charlie & his ilk or give any credence to their beliefs. These dangerous types such as Manson, Jim Jones, Hubbard et al are characterised by their psychology & extraordinary personalities which compel them to attract & influence "follower-types". Young people especially need to be wary of this kind of individual. Luckily most charisma is channeled into mundane politics and pop culture celebrity these days. Less harmful scams.

#4 CHARISMATIC AUTHORITY
section 10. The Principle Characteristics of Charismatic Authority and its Relation to Forms of Communal Organisation.

The term `charisma' will be applied to a certain quality of an individual personality by virtue of which he is set apart from ordinary men and treated as endowed with supernatural, superhuman, or at least specifically exceptional powers or qualities. These are such as are not accessible [p.359] to the ordinary person, but are regarded as of divine origin or as exemplary, and on the basis of them the individual concerned is treated as a leader. [Frank's reference p.30 is to Weber 1978 vol.1 p.241]

[Frank Pearce pp 30-31: Weber's methodological individualism meant that he felt the choice was between those occasions when charisma is a real attribute..., and those when it is merely a fantasy of the leaders followers.
from ... http://studymore.org.uk/xweb.htm

I just don't see the issue with characterizing the Manson family
as an occult? I do not see how it gives credence to their beliefs
by using the word occult? The Manson family may not be an
occult to the exact definition but it is a generally accepted term
for them.

OK. Maybe I should have instead said, "give credence to the idea that they as a group held any coherent beliefs -- or seriously pursued any spiritual/mystical inquiries as a group".

I don't accept that they have ever been "generally accepted" as being an occult group. A cult, yeah.

AK Wilks wrote:

Nachtsider wrote:

Let me reiterate. If the evidence is invalid, no suspect can be ruled in or out by ANY standard. We might as well give up and go home.

It depends IMO.

For example, I have no problem personally considering Allen cleared. There was a lot of circumstantial and geographic evidence against him, but I am comfortable saying Allen was not the Zodiac. His known crimes were sexual but not violent, while Zodiac confirmed crimes were violent with little overt sex. Allen targeted children, Zodiac teens and adults. Add to that, Allen did not match fingerprints, DNA, handwriting or look like the sketch. And he passed two polygraphs, while his chief accuser Cheney had a motive to dislike Allen and his first polygraph was a non-pass inconclusive. Yet despite all that, some in the VPD still inisted Allen was a good suspect! SFPD apparently now considers him cleared and I agree.

The only thing about Mentzer is that it seems the SFPD dismissed him within days of being given the report by the newspaper, and we don't know what criteria they used to dismiss him. And Mentzer - unlike Allen, Marshall, Gaikowski, Mr. X - is a known and proven brutal killer with ties to drug and occult networks.

So I don't personally think Mentzer was Zodiac, but I question what led to the clearing in this case.

Ridgway was cleared by police of being the Green River Killer many years before DNA revealed that he was the GRK.

I don't think Ridgeway was "Cleared". I think he may have passed a lie detector but that doesn't mean he was "cleared". I live around the stomping grounds of Ridgeway...and if my memory is correct...the lead detective never cleared him...and in fact as soon as he heard there was a DNA match he said, It's Gary Ridgeway isn't it? They simply had no way to charge him until they had the DNA. Gary Ridgeway was known at work for many years as Green River Gary BEFORE the DNA tests came back.

AKW 47!
I have never found any of Maury's links to CM as given in his book.CM did know a great many people so much so it amazed Bugliosi!

I do not believe there were any connections between Mentzer and Zodiac or CM.I have not found any.

The more suspects that are investigated will produce as in the old Ripper case hundreds if not thousands of suspects- some more like Z than others.It's a percentage or numbers game.The Z suspects will continue to pile up unless this case is solved.

bruce3 -

Thanks. I just wanted to get your take on it.

ak,
The Perry case is unsolved.We don't know who the killer was.Suspects can be suspected!

As to experts in a trial.There are pathologists,MD's,etc.,or another class of experts compared to two or more each opposing the other,and these professions are considered more 'scientific' than doc experts. So it's no great thing if you have two doc experts oppose one another.
It's the totality of the evidence the jury or judge must weigh.There are always appeals if the verdict is not acceptable.

They or Doc experts are consulted constantly in anything to do with docs and writing,etc ,in certain cases.I know I have met them and inguired about cases they have worked.Thy hve shown metheri extensive work and case info. And yes,like all experts they are sometimes offered money to either change their opinion or give one favorable to the attroney making the request.
One time a doc expert I was talking to about payoffs told me he was in his office and an attorney came in for the other side.He asked about the possibility of the expert 'changing his opinion' as he opened a book with cash inside.'I will give you this book if you want it.'The expert said, 'no I don't want the book.'He kept in mind he may have been recorded.It could not be used in court, but it would cause problems if played in a judges office.

Besides he said he would not take a payoff.Once it gets out your practice is never the same he said.He was a consumate professional who loved his work.He passed away some time ago.The widow wanted to know if i wanted some of his papers.