Sandy's POI

traveller1st wrote:

Now I've always been curious about this. Sandy says she saw it in the boot of a car? We all know what the thing looked like, or at least best we can, from witness descriptions and artists renderings. I'm curious as to how it appeared in the boot of the car as witnessed by Sandy. ie how much of the symbol was visible and roughly what shape it was lying there. Just wondering if there a way to digitally re-create that. Sandy could you do a rough sketch?

Hi traveller, I don't know where you got the boot of the car from ? I don't even know where the boot part of a car would be ? Everything was put in the back seat of my car, very visible. The costume was on the back seat, the hood part I think was wadded up on the floor in the back seat. The dictionary which when photographed by Zamantha, turned out looking more red than it actually looks, it really looks more like a rusty brown color and Bill Baker said it looked like blood. The watch was at the bottom of the ammo can that sat on top of the dictionary ( The one with the blood on it )there was also 3 earrings at the bottom of that can. It was filled with felt tip pens, a compass radius. One of the pens was white the rest were dark , one was red or orange. There was also a small Catholic book that I thought was a Bible but it was learned that it was not a Bible, it was information to be used in the church and meanings. Zam and I thought we scanned it but its not in the pictures, so I will look for it and take a picture so everyone can see it. Ricardo helped to look at what it really was used for. He found that the owners page was missing from the tiny book, it was a book that would be handed down to like a daughter as a gift and her name would be on it.

Look closely at the word "Destinee" that was written on the glove. I think that looks just like the Z's printing. In order to see everything on the glove , I had to put white paper inside of it. I felt that the drawings on each finger were the faces of my children. My third child was a boy and he has a mustache and goatee, so who ever drew this wanted me to know he knows all of my children and where they are !
The note that you feel didn't look at all like the Z's writing , may or may not be from my poi , I really don't remember what the man looked like. I do know he was dressed very nice, and exactly where he was sitting at the time he wrote it, but his face is a blank. I also noticed that the ys looked different than most all of the y's Z wrote, except in the 340, those are turned like in this note. It is hard to get a true look at any printing when it is so short, in a long letter most experts will look at the middle of the page where they feel it will most likely to be the true writing.

Zamantha I know you had a long weekend and yet you took the time to put all of this on my thread for me. Thank you so very much !

Sandy,
No probs, I just say boot as a general term I wasn't exactly sure where it was. I'm just trying to build up a picture in my own head as I may attempt to reproduce it as you saw it, using 3d programs, at some point.

Not trying to challenge anything. Just trying to fill in the story with visuals that might run the risk of being lost through time.

That is why I was hoping for a rough doodle to start with. Even if it just includes rough positioning although it would be great to get it to a stage that you can say, that's what I saw.

<< think of me as a sketch artist in progress. Unqualified and lazy but I get there in the end lol

What year did you find these items in the back seat of your car, Sandy?
I feel these are very much the items from victims, Zodiac is making a statement.
Did Zodiac fall for Sandy? Sounds like he liked her to me.
Sandy, was the gentleman who wrote the Zodiac Note to you drinking alcohol that
evening? Wouldn't that affect someone's handwriting? He wrote her a reading of her
Zodiac, making a subtle statement to her. It looks very Zodiac to me. I see the looped
little "d", the desperate T.

Dear Sandy, Try to go back and remember what he looked
like. Was he smoking cigarettes? You say he was dressed nice, do you remember shoes, slacks
or jeans, shirt, hair, facial hair? The man that left the note that night.


Was the little book a Missle? Those are little books given to Catholic children, like myself,
with pictures and stories in it. Usually including pictures of Satan.

onewhoknows wrote:

What year did you find these items in the back seat of your car, Sandy?
I feel these are very much the items from victims, Zodiac is making a statement.
Did Zodiac fall for Sandy? Sounds like he liked her to me.
Sandy, was the gentleman who wrote the Zodiac Note to you drinking alcohol that
evening? Wouldn't that affect someone's handwriting? He wrote her a reading of her
Zodiac, making a subtle statement to her. It looks very Zodiac to me. I see the looped
little "d", the desperate T.

Dear Sandy, Try to go back and remember what he looked
like. Was he smoking cigarettes? You say he was dressed nice, do you remember shoes, slacks
or jeans, shirt, hair, facial hair? The man that left the note that night.


Was the little book a Missle? Those are little books given to Catholic children, like myself,
with pictures and stories in it. Usually including pictures of Satan.

I found these items in my car, on the 28th 29th or 30th of Sept 1969 These were my days off and I was off the afternoon that I found them. It was so soon after the stabbing that I didn't make any connection to it belonging to a killer. The hood was freshly done because it still smelled of what ever he used to make the hood part black .When I did hear about the stabbing, it was either on the radio or TV, I don't remember which , because I didn't subscribe to any news papers. The description I heard was nothing like what I found, or I would have gone directly to the police. I thought the killer wore a ski mask ? What I found looked more like a Halloween costume to me ? It was almost 4 weeks before Halloween, so I thought it was an early costume. I had a witness who also saw it , I asked the Napa PD to get in touch with the witness to show I was telling them the truth. They never did that that I know of , now she has died.


The man who wrote the note, was drinking and smoking, but he wasn't drunk or I wouldn't have talked to him ( I don't like drunks ). He had on dress slacks and nice sports jacket gray or brown I think ? Don't remember his shoes, or anything about his face. The handwriting has a lot of Z like letters, I have been told by someone who has studied the Zodiac's printing for many yrs. The 3 stroke K is there as is the d's, r's and others. Remember this was given to me i the late 80's so in 20 yrs I would think he would have changed it somewhat , if it was from Zodiac ? We all see things differently and that is ok.


The tiny book didn't have any pictures in it , it is about 2 in by 2 in and looked very much like a Bible.It looks more like a older child or adult would have it, not a young one ,because nothing about it looks child like.

traveller1st wrote:

Sandy,
No probs, I just say boot as a general term I wasn't exactly sure where it was. I'm just trying to build up a picture in my own head as I may attempt to reproduce it as you saw it, using 3d programs, at some point.

Not trying to challenge anything. Just trying to fill in the story with visuals that might run the risk of being lost through time.

That is why I was hoping for a rough doodle to start with. Even if it just includes rough positioning although it would be great to get it to a stage that you can say, that's what I saw.

<< think of me as a sketch artist in progress. Unqualified and lazy but I get there in the end lol

I will do a drawing of how it looked in my back seat, and give it to Zamantha to scan and post for me. Remember the costume that I found looked like the one I am waring in the picture, except the hood part was about 2 or 3 inches shorter. The one that you have seen in the police reports, shows the bottom half shorter than what I found. The one I found had to go almost to the guys waist, because it was about 1 & 1/2 yrs long and 36 in wide. When I heard or read that the hood was described as having some marking on it. To me a hood is the part that covers the head only , so even hearing about it yrs later, it never rang any bells for me , it wasn't until I saw the picture in Graysmiths book in 1987 , that I then knew what I had found in 1969, and it scared the heck out of me !

onewhoknows wrote:

What year did you find these items in the back seat of your car, Sandy?
I feel these are very much the items from victims, Zodiac is making a statement.
Did Zodiac fall for Sandy? Sounds like he liked her to me.
Sandy, was the gentleman who wrote the Zodiac Note to you drinking alcohol that
evening? Wouldn't that affect someone's handwriting? He wrote her a reading of her
Zodiac, making a subtle statement to her. It looks very Zodiac to me. I see the looped
little "d", the desperate T.

Dear Sandy, Try to go back and remember what he looked
like. Was he smoking cigarettes? You say he was dressed nice, do you remember shoes, slacks
or jeans, shirt, hair, facial hair? The man that left the note that night.


Was the little book a Missle? Those are little books given to Catholic children, like myself,
with pictures and stories in it. Usually including pictures of Satan.

Jesus, this is different compared to the books European children are getting..btw, she mentioned it had no pictures in it.

Maybe the bible was from Fern Lodge, the Christian nursing care facility Z might have came from?

QT

Sandy--

At what point in time did you realize it was the Zodiac Killer at Lake Berryessa?

Sorry they are called Missal and are books which instruct older children on the rituals and prayers
for Mass. In the 1960's mine had a disturbing green devil with horns in a beautiful illustration.
Back to Sandy do you think the guy you saw that night looked anything like your suspect?

tahoe27 wrote:

Sandy--

At what point in time did you realize it was the Zodiac Killer at Lake Berryessa?

I would think as soon as it was announced that the Zodiac stabbed a couple at Lake B ? I worked from 6 pm to 2 am every night except Sunday Monday Tuesday. I had three children,( one was only 8 months old) to take care of during the day, so I didn't watch TV in the day time. On my days off I washed clothes and did house cleaning. Most of the news was given to me by friends I worked with, or what ever my husband would talk about. When ever you get second hand information , it isn't always correct. It was my understanding that the killer wore a mask like a ski mask. So what I found didn't make me think Zodiac. In fact I didn't even remember that my clothes line was taken that summer in Napa. Zodiac playing games with me was not conceivable to me at that time. I thought that some drunk thought my car was his and put all that stuff in my car by mistake.

I didn't want to think that I may have crossed paths with the Zodiac in 1968, but in the back of my mind I thought it could have been him, only because of the car matching Mike M's description. Then came the odd phone calls and a letter ( which is in cursive ). I moved around 1970 to the Delta, I started to get phone calls there as well, and my car was constantly tampered with. I sure didn't think that I was being stalked up there ? I didn't notice anyone following me until I moved to Concord/ Walnut Creek area, that is when It escalated. He tried to run me over when I got away from him again ! I could run pretty fast back then, thank goodness.

I only realized what was in my car when I saw Graysmiths drawing of it. His drawing was close , but the hood I had was more square than what Graysmith drew, and the other half was longer than his drawing. But it was close enough that I remembered what was in my car that Sept 69.
Even today with out seeing a picture of it, the description is way off, the logo was not on the hood itself, it was on the other half of the costume. So even if this happened today and I heard it or read it in a news paper, it still would not seem like what I saw. The description today is still a one piece costume and that is wrong.

onewhoknows wrote:

Sorry they are called Missal and are books which instruct older children on the rituals and prayers
for Mass. In the 1960's mine had a disturbing green devil with horns in a beautiful illustration.
Back to Sandy do you think the guy you saw that night looked anything like your suspect?

I wish I could remember what he looked like but I really don't . Even when I see my suspect now, I have to look again to be sure that it is him, he looks so different when he shaves his head, and when he has his hair in wavy curls. Not to mention when he was dressed as a woman !
When he is face to face with me there is no doubt because he has dead pan eyes, and one eye moves around. There is no mistaking that voice when he talks in that taunting voice of his. Its like a robot voice.

sandy betts wrote:

traveller1st wrote:

Sandy,
No probs, I just say boot as a general term I wasn't exactly sure where it was. I'm just trying to build up a picture in my own head as I may attempt to reproduce it as you saw it, using 3d programs, at some point.

Not trying to challenge anything. Just trying to fill in the story with visuals that might run the risk of being lost through time.

That is why I was hoping for a rough doodle to start with. Even if it just includes rough positioning although it would be great to get it to a stage that you can say, that's what I saw.

<< think of me as a sketch artist in progress. Unqualified and lazy but I get there in the end lol

I will do a drawing of how it looked in my back seat, and give it to Zamantha to scan and post for me. Remember the costume that I found looked like the one I am waring in the picture, except the hood part was about 2 or 3 inches shorter. The one that you have seen in the police reports, shows the bottom half shorter than what I found. The one I found had to go almost to the guys waist, because it was about 1 & 1/2 yrs long and 36 in wide. When I heard or read that the hood was described as having some marking on it. To me a hood is the part that covers the head only , so even hearing about it yrs later, it never rang any bells for me , it wasn't until I saw the picture in Graysmiths book in 1987 , that I then knew what I had found in 1969, and it scared the heck out of me !

OK, here's Sandy's Drawing.

Sweet got that saved.

Give me about 3 years till I remember how to and or learn to use these programs lol. Actually I was passing the time earlier messing around in mudbox but I'm not sure I'll use it. Takes too long as it's sculpting so will prob try using something that allows me the use of dynamic cloth as so on.

I'm trying to work up the motivation to do 3D renderings of the crime scenes eventually but that really will be a lot of work and re-learning.

Here's my hood from earlier. It's not very good, basically took a cube and started poking at it to get used to Mudbox.

It sounds like a painted paperbag with the slits cut into it.

onewhoknows wrote:

It sounds like a painted paperbag with the slits cut into it.

That is exactly what it was, only the eyes were not slits, they were round cut outs and good sized. I just can't remember if the mouth was cut out or not? I am pretty sure it was by the police reports, but I can't say that I remember that part of it. I will never forget that smell though, it was so bad that I threw it in my garbage can as soon as I got home. Zodiac must have been upset that I didn't recognize it as his costume. Because I believe he wanted me to take it to Napa Pd. Looking back ,perhaps he was trying to frame my husband ? People have said that maybe he left it there by mistake ? I did think that at one time, but when he bought me a new clothes line some 15yrs later and put it on my porch, thats when I remembered that mine was stolen from my home in Napa that summer in1969 . That is when I knew he knew exactly who's car it was. If anyone can think of why they think this was done to me please tell me ? I am open to any thoughts.

Thanks Zam for posting the drawing. The drawing was done while Zam was driving us to do more investigating, so all that wiggly mess was partly because it was a bit bouncy in the vehicle we were in.

It sounds to me like you were having close encounters with the Zodiac. Sounds like he
knew who you were, where you worked, and where you lived. For years and years.
It sounds like he had a thing for you and you ignored him ( not wittingly). Dear Sandy,
please tell me, did you have red hair?

traveller1st wrote:

Sweet got that saved.

Give me about 3 years till I remember how to and or learn to use these programs lol. Actually I was passing the time earlier messing around in mudbox but I'm not sure I'll use it. Takes too long as it's sculpting so will prob try using something that allows me the use of dynamic cloth as so on.

I'm trying to work up the motivation to do 3D renderings of the crime scenes eventually but that really will be a lot of work and re-learning.

Here's my hood from earlier. It's not very good, basically took a cube and started poking at it to get used to Mudbox.

Pretty good Traveler ! The hood I had was a bit longer than yours , it rested bent on his shoulders. The bottom of the paper sack was cut/ torn on all 4 corners about 3 in, so it folded in a way that made me think it had to sit on the persons shoulders, and the poncho part rested on those folds , keeping it in place. I think that the clip on glasses also helped keep it in place.

onewhoknows wrote:

It sounds to me like you were having close encounters with the Zodiac. Sounds like he
knew who you were, where you worked, and where you lived. For years and years.
It sounds like he had a thing for you and you ignored him ( not wittingly). Dear Sandy,
please tell me, did you have red hair?

My hair at that time was platinum blond, but I did have red hair from time to time. That is the only other color I like to have, I do get a temper when I have red hair though LOL.

Hot! I remember you said you were in some films as well during those days...
Zodiac targeted pretty girls

sandy betts wrote:

traveller1st wrote:

Sweet got that saved.

Give me about 3 years till I remember how to and or learn to use these programs lol. Actually I was passing the time earlier messing around in mudbox but I'm not sure I'll use it. Takes too long as it's sculpting so will prob try using something that allows me the use of dynamic cloth as so on.

I'm trying to work up the motivation to do 3D renderings of the crime scenes eventually but that really will be a lot of work and re-learning.

Here's my hood from earlier. It's not very good, basically took a cube and started poking at it to get used to Mudbox.

Pretty good Traveler ! The hood I had was a bit longer than yours , it rested bent on his shoulders. The bottom of the paper sack was cut/ torn on all 4 corners about 3 in, so it folded in a way that made me think it had to sit on the persons shoulders, and the poncho part rested on those folds , keeping it in place. I think that the clip on glasses also helped keep it in place.

Yeah that was just me practising. Thanks for the feed back and extra description. All good stuff.

onewhoknows wrote:

Hot! I remember you said you were in some films as well during those days...
Zodiac targeted pretty girls

Oh thank you, the two movies were "Hunters are For Killing "done up in Santa Rosa and in St Helena 1969, with Burt Reynolds , he was hot back then ! Burt and I is another interesting story .
Then came "Steel Yard blues" With Jane Fonda and Donald Sutherland, in the 70's. That one was also filmed in Santa Rosa as well as Hayward and Oakland. They were both only extra parts, but good ones where I was a feature extra. I had two parts in Steel yard Blues, I was a blond hooker and a redheaded hippie LOL. The one with Burt was a made for TV ( CBS Thursday night Movie). I was dating a lighting director so was able to be around a lot of the Hollywood ( In crowd ).

I have had a very interesting life, but most of it sounds made up. I am sure if I was a liar like one person in particular accuses me of being ( without proving these so called lies )It would be easy to prove other wise, if anything I have told was indeed a lie.
I do agree it is all very hard to believe, but it is all true.

"Some times it is hard to write this in the order it happened. At times when I am thinking about what has taken place something comes to mind and If I don't write it as I remember it I might not get back to it .So please forgive me but I just remembered something I think is important. As some of you know I am a friend of Tom V. I know him in a different way than most of you do. When I was told that he was starting a web site about the Zodiac, I was thrilled, I felt that finally I can tell my story and some ex cop who knew about the Z and his ways, would help me find out who the man was for sure who was pretending to be the Zodiac, or who in fact was ! I sent Tom as much as I could get my hands on, like old news paper clippings about the Z, Darlene's sister Pam did the same. Well I took the long way around the barn again ! Anyway one day Tom received a email from a young man named Ira ,who wanted to know who I was and if I ever worked at a place named Bob's Big Boy in Vallejo ? He said that there was a waitress there who once gave him something from a older man he had hardly knew. Ira was cutting class and reading the Zodiac book by R.Graysmith, when this older man came up to him and asked Ira how he like the book ? Ira said he liked it, the man said he was a fan of the Zodiac's !

Ira felt the older man was just playing around, but noticed that the man was watching Ira as he read the book.
Ira also noticed that when the man would take a drink of coffee, it would spill out the side of his mouth.

Ira went to school the next day but on Thursday he cut class again.
The waitress came over to Ira, and said that the old man who was in on Tuesday, was also there on Wednesday and brought Ira a present.
It was in a paper sack, Ira looked inside and saw it was another Z book just like the one he had. He wondered why would the old man give him another book ? When Ira picked up the book he looked inside the front cover and saw a note. It read : I thought you might like a autographed copy.
It was signed the Zodiac and had a Z logo. Ira thought the old man was just having some fun playing a joke.

Ira didn't give it much thought. Then a few yrs later he stumbled onto Zodiackiller.com web site. And out of curiosity thought he would check out what all of the suspects looked like. He didn't see the old mans face there. But he found a link to Zodiac Vortex, and there was a picture of the old man that I had given the web master Ryan. Thank goodness Ryan kept the picture on his site ! Now for all of the sceptics out there , do you really think that this is just another coincidence ?

Ira got in touch with Tom, to ask me if I was the waitress who gave the present to him ?
Tom felt I should read the email he was sent from Ira.
I got in touch with Ira, and asked him different questions about the man, just to be sure it wasn't just some old man who looked like my suspect.

He told me about the lazy eye, and how the coffee fell onto the mans shirt, and how the man acted as if nothing had happened.
I asked him if he saw the type of car the man drove ?
Ira said it was a light tan/ brown Mercury Sable.
I knew which car it was, because I had seen him driving in it one day, and got the plate number of it.
It was 3 888. I wanted to see the book and check out the writing, but Ira said he had moved a few times sense then, and didn't know where it was. That is just the kind of luck I have had all along ."


This was copied from another site, of which I was accused of making up the entire story, yet the person accusing me of it, was a person who forwarded Ira's email to me that was sent to Tom V. They both felt it was important enough for me to check out, which I did. I never knew of this Ira person before his email.
It was mentioned on that site how convenient it was for me, that the book was lost. I would love to find this book and compare the writing , could it be a hoax ? How would a person who looks just like my poi find a young boy , do all of this thinking it would get back to me ? That to me is preposterous !

Zamantha wrote:

Sandy received this kite flying note, approximately March 2010. It was found on her front door step.

1) Approximate, March 2010, Sandy found kite flying note on front door step. Strange note,
kept it and also told others about her finding.
2) Feb. 2012, LL spoke to Sandy and myself about Deana Hooper
3) I recalled someone looking for their Aunt with that name
4) Feb 2012 went to library to research Deana Hooper
5) Sunday Feb 26, 2012 Went to St. Johns Mine Road/Columbus Parkway, Swett Ranch
6) Saw crime location for Deana Hooper. St. Johns Mine Road & Columbus Parkway
7) Newspaper articles show victim was found by Kite flyers.
8 ) Made Sandy flashed on this strange note she received. Note was received prior to us
having any knowledge of this crime. I recall Sandy sharing this note and information with
me a long time ago.

A poster saw something that I missed in this letter it is from the movie Dirty Harry of which we know was about Zodiac as scorpio.
The Scorpio Killer confronts SFPD Inspector Harry Callahan at night in a park with a huge stone cross. Harry has a bag full of ransom money to release a girl that Scorpio had kidnapped. Scorpio assaults Harry and says -

&quot;I've changed my mind. I'm going to let her die. I just wanted you to know that.&quot