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 Zodiac's Car?

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onewhoknows
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PostSubject: Zodiac's Car?   Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:26 am

Here is a photo of my suspect in May 1978 with his back to the camera.
He would have had access to this car during the crimes committed by the
Zodiac Killer. It is a Pont Gran Prix '65 (?) pale yellow with black interior with
a console. It was his mother's car which he drove frequently.

http://i41.servimg.com/u/f41/16/81/56/39/image_16.jpg

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Zamantha
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PostSubject: Re: Zodiac's Car?   Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:01 am

onewhoknows wrote:
Here is a photo of my suspect in May 1978 with his back to the camera.
He would have had access to this car during the crimes committed by the
Zodiac Killer. It is a Pont Gran Prix '65 (?) pale yellow with black interior with
a console. It was his mother's car which he drove frequently.

http://i41.servimg.com/u/f41/16/81/56/39/image_16.jpg


Hi onewhoknows, I don't recall anyone mentioning the Z having a Gran Prix. But you never know.
Jes to remind you...we started a Thread for you for your POI. That way everything is in one place if
we ever need to find it. Here you go, It's titled: onewhoknows POI under other POI's. Much Thanks, totally appreciate your help!

Zincerely, Zam Like a Star @ heaven
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bentley
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PostSubject: Re: Zodiac's Car?   Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:25 am

Those mid-60's Grand Prix Pontiacs shared the same chassis as the Chevy Impala, which has been mentioned somewhere in the reports, LHR for one, in white and blue I believe, and in an earlier model. That mid-'60s GM light yellow could be mistaken for white in the dark I suppose. KJ may have said something related. Much to big for Mageau's BRS description or the LB tire tracks.

Odd photo there, surveillance? We're they stuffing a body in the trunk, or just a back shot of the leisure suit? Looks like a scene from Streets of San Francisco.

Go ahead and move my post Zam, or just delete it. Smile
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tahoe27
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PostSubject: Re: Zodiac's Car?   Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:59 pm

Bentley--I think this is important if we are discussing "Zodiac's Car". I do think it's important to try and figure out the type of car that would have been parked (20ft.) behind Bryan's at LB--at some point. Especially if you are using a vehicle in association with Zodiac in regards to a POI.

While I don't think that car was necessarily Zodiac's. It could have been, but I don't believe it was parked there at the actual time of the stabbings.

BUT, I DO think it is important to have the info. While it wouldn't help FIND the attacker, if they did find him, the car and it's track/tires would help place him there.
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onewhoknows
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PostSubject: Zodiac's Car?   Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:36 pm

Thank you for your input....my guess would be this is the vehicle he used for
Lake Herman Road, and perhaps Kathleen Johns, whom I believe, by the way.
He would just love all this doubt and denial. Just the way he planned it. He is
the younger one dressed in his wedding suit in 1978. Putting items in the trunk
preparing for the Honeymoon at Lake Shasta. Where he promptly terrorized me
by driving the same car through the dark and winding roads around the Lake
drunk and mad as hell. This is the same car he would take me to Lake Berryessa
in for the first time, that same year. After we arrived, and carried the ice chest down
to the same spot we would go to over and over, he took a walk. He came back in a
panic, and said we had to leave, we ran back to the car, ice chest and all. Everything
went dark for me, the inside of the car was black, he was wearing a black t-shirt, he
put his gun there on the console, the black one, the .9mm, and we sped back towards Vallejo.
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bentley
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PostSubject: Re: Zodiac's Car?   Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:47 pm

tahoe27 wrote:
Bentley--I think this is important if we are discussing "Zodiac's Car". I do think it's important to try and figure out the type of car that would have been parked (20ft.) behind Bryan's at LB--at some point. Especially if you are using a vehicle in association with Zodiac in regards to a POI.

While I don't think that car was necessarily Zodiac's. It could have been, but I don't believe it was parked there at the actual time of the stabbings.

BUT, I DO think it is important to have the info. While it wouldn't help FIND the attacker, if they did find him, the car and it's track/tires would help place him there.


Somebody once posted a pretty good list of cars that fit the LB tracks. Not all inclusive, but enough to give a good idea of the size of car. Something on the order of a Ford Falcon, Chevy Nova, Dodge Dart. Full size cars are generally too wide. There is a bit of a gray area because in the LB report it states two different tire widths were on the front of the car, which would have an effect on the inside of tire to inside of tire measurement they took, vs. the center to center of tire measurment used by the automotive industry to measure track. Also, different rim offsets (aftermarket or a rim from a differnt car) would change the track measurement. But in general, a mid sized car. A Chevy Malibu is close, and may have been what the girls saw at LB, I would have to go back and research it again. They did say a Chevy, full size maybe, which would have been tough to confuse with a Nova.

It's too bad a wheelbase measurement was not taken (front wheels to back wheels), might not have been possible. That would really have helped narrow things down. And yes, perhaps not Zs car at all. Tell me again why you have your doubts? Something to do with the footprint paths?
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PostSubject: Re: Zodiac's Car?   Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:23 pm

bentley wrote:
Those mid-60's Grand Prix Pontiacs shared the same chassis as the Chevy Impala, which has been mentioned somewhere in the reports, LHR for one, in white and blue I believe, and in an earlier model. That mid-'60s GM light yellow could be mistaken for white in the dark I suppose. KJ may have said something related. Much to big for Mageau's BRS description or the LB tire tracks.

Odd photo there, surveillance? We're they stuffing a body in the trunk, or just a back shot of the leisure suit? Looks like a scene from Streets of San Francisco.

Go ahead and move my post Zam, or just delete it. Smile

Thanks Bentley, nice to have a car guy around! Yeah onewhoknows, I was also wondering what they were doing in the trunk...any ideas?

(Morf... can you move this to the onewhoknows thread? I have a new computer and can't do a thing, haha*)
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PostSubject: Re: Zodiac's Car?   Mon Oct 17, 2011 1:11 pm

bentley wrote:
And yes, perhaps not Zs car at all. Tell me again why you have your doubts? Something to do with the footprint paths?

There are several reasons I have my doubts. His voice being the main reason. I need to add to one of the threads I started in regards to the footpath as I do believe Zodiac walked to them from another location. I don't think he would so boldly park his car right behind Bryan's. What if someone else pulled in while he was doing his dirty work?
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bentley
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PostSubject: Re: Zodiac's Car?   Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:23 pm

tahoe27 wrote:
I don't think he would so boldly park his car right behind Bryan's. What if someone else pulled in while he was doing his dirty work?

Good point. A stolen car or plates would have been a big plus.

He might have just shot anyone else on his way out.

Probably never know of sure.

Off topic, but as far as LB being a Z hit, do you think two separate idiots would drive to a phone booth by the police station to announce their deeds?
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PostSubject: Re: Zodiac's Car?   Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:08 pm

bentley wrote:
Off topic, but as far as LB being a Z hit, do you think two separate idiots would drive to a phone booth by the police station to announce their deeds?

It would be against the odds, but then again this is exactly what copycats do and there was certainly plenty of media coverage of Z's exploits to inspire another weirdo.
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PostSubject: Re: Zodiac's Car?   Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:16 pm

A weirdo who just happens to look the same and have the same handwriting?
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PostSubject: Re: Zodiac's Car?   Tue Oct 18, 2011 2:55 pm

Nachtsider wrote:
A weirdo who just happens to look the same and have the same handwriting?

I don't think they are described the same though. Light brown, almost blonde and curly about 5' 8" (Mike M) doesn't jibe with dark brown hair, big guy...of course we know hair can be colored, but why if you are going to cover it up anyway? SF works with Mike's description, but really not LB, imo of course!

The thing is, we can say all day how he could be made to look fatter, dye hair, change voice, but if you go by the facts of what we have (not the things he was capable of), we really don't have someone who looks the same OR SOUNDS the same when considering LB.

And to me, the handwriting does not look the same. So to each his own I guess.



(sorry for going so far off topic - maybe I will start a new thread)

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PostSubject: Re: Zodiac's Car?   Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:30 pm

Nachtsider wrote:
A weirdo who just happens to look the same and have the same handwriting?

Agree with Tahoe here. The LB descriptions are just about close enough to consider the perp as Z but they are only just within range and the MO seems much more elaborate. On one hand we could say that if Z was about 5'10", 180lbs and changed his MO then he would loosely fit all descriptions. However, most witnesses of the shooting murders reported a guy of about 5'8", 160-170lbs, with light coloured hair (pompadour or crew cut) and a low, mature voice.

At LB, we suddenly have a knifeman who chats to his victims for 15mins and ties them up before the murder. This guy is seemingly described at about 6ft, over 200lbs, with dark greasy hair and a young voice like a student. Oh yeah - and he dresses up in some ritualistic super-villain costume with a symbol which says "Look at me, I'm the Zodiac!". If we believe that the weirdo stalking the girls at LB was also Z then all 3 describe him as 6 - 6'2" and dark haired.

Of course, we could just be looking at wildy varying descriptions of the same guy, but it's weird that all the witnesses of the knifeman lean one way and all the witnesses of the gunman lean the other way. I wouldn't rule anything out with this case - 1 Zodiac, 2 Zodiacs working together or 1 Zodiac and a random hero-worshipping psycho with a knife hanging out at LB.
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PostSubject: Re: Zodiac's Car?   Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:43 pm

What about the handwriting on the car door at Lake Berryessa? It matches
the writing in the classic letters. Pay close attention to the description of the EYEWITNESSES to him in San Francisco. You cannot rely on the girls at Lake Berryessa's description at all. We have no idea that man was related to these crimes. My theory is this, he was disguising himself. And he put padding on
under his costume at Lake Berryessa, hence the description given by the male victim.
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PostSubject: Zodiac's car   Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:28 pm

Here are a couple of pictures of cars one is 1965 Chevy Impala
the other is a full photo of the car in the picture with my suspect
which is a 1965 Pontiac Gran Prix. They are both very similar
looking vehicles.

url=http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=16&u=16815639][/url]
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PostSubject: Re: Zodiac's Car?   Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:58 am

Fouke apparently estimated Zodiac's height to be as tall as six-foot-two, at one point.

I still think the descriptions of the gunman and those of the knifeman are similar enough that they might actually be that of the same person. Heavily-built, brown-haired guy, about five-ten on average, somewhere in his thirties, perhaps, who may or may not wear glasses.
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onewhoknows
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PostSubject: Re: Zodiac's Car?   Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:57 pm

With all due respect, how do you know for sure that Fouke saw the real Zodiac?
We need to focus on the eyewitness verifiable descriptions. Fouke totally changed
the description from what the teenagers saw that night in SF. On my laptop, it has the
new facial recognition software. It recognizes the original composite sketch as my
suspect, (no lie, I have tested it repeatedly with several different photos and sources)
however when I compare the updated sketch based on Fouke's description is says "Who's
this?" Interesting.....
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PostSubject: Re: Zodiac's Car?   Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:01 am

Nachtsider wrote:
Fouke apparently estimated Zodiac's height to be as tall as six-foot-two, at one point.

I still think the descriptions of the gunman and those of the knifeman are similar enough that they might actually be that of the same person. Heavily-built, brown-haired guy, about five-ten on average, somewhere in his thirties, perhaps, who may or may not wear glasses.

Fouke says five-ten here. Something wrong with his neck?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A3kD-j25jQ&feature=related

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PostSubject: Re: Zodiac's Car?   Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:06 am

bentley wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:
Fouke apparently estimated Zodiac's height to be as tall as six-foot-two, at one point.

I still think the descriptions of the gunman and those of the knifeman are similar enough that they might actually be that of the same person. Heavily-built, brown-haired guy, about five-ten on average, somewhere in his thirties, perhaps, who may or may not wear glasses.

Fouke says five-ten here. Something wrong with his neck?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A3kD-j25jQ&feature=related


Wow, Paul Avery did not look like Paul Avery in that old 80's looking video
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PostSubject: Re: Zodiac's Car?   Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:11 am

onewhoknows wrote:
With all due respect, how do you know for sure that Fouke saw the real Zodiac?
We need to focus on the eyewitness verifiable descriptions. Fouke totally changed
the description from what the teenagers saw that night in SF. On my laptop, it has the
new facial recognition software. It recognizes the original composite sketch as my
suspect, (no lie, I have tested it repeatedly with several different photos and sources)
however when I compare the updated sketch based on Fouke's description is says "Who's
this?" Interesting.....
Who else could it have been?

Introducing your suspect into the argument is an element of bias.
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PostSubject: Re: Zodiac's Car?   Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:50 am

Nachtsider wrote:
onewhoknows wrote:
With all due respect, how do you know for sure that Fouke saw the real Zodiac?
We need to focus on the eyewitness verifiable descriptions. Fouke totally changed
the description from what the teenagers saw that night in SF. On my laptop, it has the
new facial recognition software. It recognizes the original composite sketch as my
suspect, (no lie, I have tested it repeatedly with several different photos and sources)
however when I compare the updated sketch based on Fouke's description is says "Who's
this?" Interesting.....
Who else could it have been?

Introducing your suspect into the argument is an element of bias.

Yeah, the facts overwhelmingly show that the guy they saw was the Zodiac. He was heading from the direction the kids seen him go in, he fit the description, and it was only a couple minutes after the murder. I think they are lucky, had they actually stopped him, they may have wound up with bullets in their heads before they knew what was going on.
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PostSubject: Re: Zodiac's Car?   Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:11 pm

Nachtsider wrote:
Fouke apparently estimated Zodiac's height to be as tall as six-foot-two, at one point.

I still think the descriptions of the gunman and those of the knifeman are similar enough that they might actually be that of the same person. Heavily-built, brown-haired guy, about five-ten on average, somewhere in his thirties, perhaps, who may or may not wear glasses.

What's interesting is if one doesn't believe the guy the girls saw was Zodiac OR the guy the father and son saw was Zodiac, then there were THREE guys lurking around LB (and I do mean lurking) that day around the same time who looked and dressed the same. And only one of them was seen in a car.
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PostSubject: Re: Zodiac's Car?   Thu Oct 20, 2011 4:57 pm

tahoe27 wrote:
What's interesting is if one doesn't believe the guy the girls saw was Zodiac OR the guy the father and son saw was Zodiac, then there were THREE guys lurking around LB (and I do mean lurking) that day around the same time who looked and dressed the same. And only one of them was seen in a car.

Exactly Tahoe - and what are the chances of that? We have to look at what scenario is more against the odds - a serial killer and a one time copycat murderer (who happens to have a different MO) turning up in the same year in Northern California or 3 oddball stalkers/killers being around the same national park, acting suspiciously on the same afternoon and pretty much looking the same? Some people seem to find the first scenario ridiculous and far fetched whilst at the same time seeing the second scenario as perfectly likely.

For the record, I think it was all the same perp (Z) who changed his appearance but I definitely wouldn't rule out a copycat for LB.
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PostSubject: Re: Zodiac's Car?   Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:02 pm

tahoe27 wrote:
Nachtsider wrote:
Fouke apparently estimated Zodiac's height to be as tall as six-foot-two, at one point.

I still think the descriptions of the gunman and those of the knifeman are similar enough that they might actually be that of the same person. Heavily-built, brown-haired guy, about five-ten on average, somewhere in his thirties, perhaps, who may or may not wear glasses.

What's interesting is if one doesn't believe the guy the girls saw was Zodiac OR the guy the father and son saw was Zodiac, then there were THREE guys lurking around LB (and I do mean lurking) that day around the same time who looked and dressed the same. And only one of them was seen in a car.

And a fourth guy running into the store at Moskowite Corner frantically asking for directions to leave the lake..
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