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 Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo

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tahoe27
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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:12 pm

Wow! Had to go back and read my own link! lol I had forgotten about that.

Interesting observations Morf.

One thing that has bothered me is Mike's original take on his attackers hair. CURLY.

I trust his first reports the most. Hair color can be altered...I guess style could be too, but "curly"? Makes me wonder if that is why Z had more of a buzz-cut style hairdo for SF. ??

And I won't get into LB....

Would love to see more photos of this guy without styled hair!


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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:29 pm

tahoe27 wrote:
Wow! Had to go back and read my own link! lol I had forgotten about that.

Interesting observations Morf.

One thing that has bothered me is Mike's original take on his attackers hair. CURLY.

I trust his first reports the most. Hair color can be altered...I guess style could be too, but "curly"? Makes me wonder if that is why Z had more of a buzz-cut style hairdo for SF. ??

And I won't get into LB....

Would love to see more photos of this guy without styled hair!



So would I Tahoe....but finding anything else for this guy after 1966 is proving to be very difficult.
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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:09 pm

May I suggest we change this guys nic to Ghost lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:10 am

This guy has worked as a switchman & Brakeman for the railroads. I dont know much about trains. Does this match up with any Zodiac clues?
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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:15 pm

morf13 wrote:
This guy has worked as a switchman & Brakeman for the railroads. I dont know much about trains. Does this match up with any Zodiac clues?
I live in a famous railroad town you think I know more about them but I don't. Maybe the Halloween symbol has something to do with them and the front of some trains look like they have a somewhat similar design. Here is a idea lol that next time you talk to Zode ask him cause I remember you saying he is fascinated with trains.
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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:27 pm

Map showing just how close this suspect lived to the Bates murder scene, less than 3 miles....an easy escape for someone if he needed to get home quickly and get cleaned up, etc


In the photo, A represents the suspect's house, and B represents RCC where Cheri was killed

The next map shows the distance between Cheri's house, and this suspect's house, less than a mile apart:
A= Cheri's house & B= This suspects house
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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:14 pm

Zodiac wrote 'no address' on his August 1969 letter in which he called himself Zodiac. In October, 1969, the house that this suspect lived in was sold, and maybe it was up for sale in August, 1969, and he would be moving soon. Perhaps, if this suspect was Z, that may be why he wrote 'no address'. Perhaps he was renting the house, and the landlord decided to sell...leaving him with no address. So far, I cant connect him to the owners of the house prior to October 1969, nor have I connected him to the people that bought the home in October 1969, although the guy that bought it was the same age as this suspect, mayeb friends, schoolmates, etc??
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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:50 am

Yea there might be a good chance they knew each other being the same age. This guy is interesting and keep up the good work. I appreciate your hard work since this guy is hard to find info on him.
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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:14 am

morf13 wrote:
A while back, (a few years back I think), Tahoe posted this at zk.com-

I don't know if this guy would be a Zodiac suspect, but do a quick read. The names of potential victims in the late 60's and early 70's are some we are quite familiar with. One was killed in the Clayton area--right there where Phillip Garrido (Jaycee Lee Dugard's kidnapper) was at the time.
And, he had the help of his wife. WTF?? can't help but think of Phillips 66!
http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkiller_news/H/HUGHES_phillip_joseph_jr.php


She was talking about unsolved murders in CLAYTON area, one of which was that of Cosette Ellison mentioned as a possible Zodiac victim.
"One of the earliest victims on the unsolved list, Ellison disappeared after school on March 3, 1970. She was a sophomore at Campolindo High, the same school Hughes and one of his victims, 19-year-old Maureen Field, attended earlier.Like Field, who vanished in November 1972, Ellison's body was found in a ravine off Morgan Territory Road, south of Clayton"

This Zodiac suspect lived in Clayton back then, and also lived on MORGAN TERRITORY RD. Again, I am still trying to verify dates, but it os real slow going.

Speaking of Morgan Territory Rd, and this suspect living there, I saw this post over at Zodiackillerfacts.com:
http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1305&sid=65baa855d292c521d0d2529402a2f93d

The member posted his findings suspecting that Z had put the bomb on Morgan Territory rd...pretty interesting
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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:37 am

This POI was a brakeman for the railroad. Perhaps, if he was the Zodiac, he called himself 'red phantom' in his last confirmed letter because of this book(notice that the phantom brakeman on the cover is painted RED)

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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:53 pm

morf13 wrote:
morf13 wrote:
A while back, (a few years back I think), Tahoe posted this at zk.com-

I don't know if this guy would be a Zodiac suspect, but do a quick read. The names of potential victims in the late 60's and early 70's are some we are quite familiar with. One was killed in the Clayton area--right there where Phillip Garrido (Jaycee Lee Dugard's kidnapper) was at the time.
And, he had the help of his wife. WTF?? can't help but think of Phillips 66!
http://www.crimezzz.net/serialkiller_news/H/HUGHES_phillip_joseph_jr.php


She was talking about unsolved murders in CLAYTON area, one of which was that of Cosette Ellison mentioned as a possible Zodiac victim.
"One of the earliest victims on the unsolved list, Ellison disappeared after school on March 3, 1970. She was a sophomore at Campolindo High, the same school Hughes and one of his victims, 19-year-old Maureen Field, attended earlier.Like Field, who vanished in November 1972, Ellison's body was found in a ravine off Morgan Territory Road, south of Clayton"

This Zodiac suspect lived in Clayton back then, and also lived on MORGAN TERRITORY RD. Again, I am still trying to verify dates, but it os real slow going.

Speaking of Morgan Territory Rd, and this suspect living there, I saw this post over at Zodiackillerfacts.com:
http://www.zodiackillerfacts.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1305&sid=65baa855d292c521d0d2529402a2f93d

The member posted his findings suspecting that Z had put the bomb on Morgan Territory rd...pretty interesting

One early evening in '86 my boyfriend (husband) and I were out on Morgan Territory Rd. taking photos of us (and his '72 Vega)--I was 16 at the time. It got dark..we were sitting in a turn-out of the windy, country road. It's pitch black. A car pulls in behind us, turns on this extremely bright light, shines it in the car in our eyes. So bright it's like the sun. He started from behind so when we looked in the rear-view mirror we couldn't see anything and he followed around to the driver's side. We were actually getting angry--like "turn of the f-ing light"! Finally he turned the away and it was a cop. He told us we should get moving...

This was before I knew of Zodiac or I would have affraid But RIGHT after this, I read "Zodiac". Needless to say, we don't park on dark streets alone anymore--could be old age...lol.

MTR is windy, hilly, oak trees....known to be a bit dangerous. Had many friends who lived in and around that road. Party spot. Lots of places to go. At the very end on the Clayton side it gets really creepy. Blair Witch-ish. It gets smaller as you drive Southeast towards Livermore. If you "google map" it, it pretty much shows an end to the road. You can clearly see there is a road there, but I guess it's not a recommended route. I understand why. So...Morgan Territory Road comes out in Livermore...right next to Pleasanton, where Zodiac sent one of his letters.

I do think Zodiac was a local of the Bay Area and Mt. Diablo influenced (for lack of a better word) him in some way. Maybe he operated the radio tower, etc....who knows...

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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:57 pm

morf13 wrote:
This POI was a brakeman for the railroad. Perhaps, if he was the Zodiac, he called himself 'red phantom' in his last confirmed letter because of this book(notice that the phantom brakeman on the cover is painted RED)


Hmm...I wonder if anything else may have attracted him to this book. Wink
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PostSubject: Webb   Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:01 pm

Several posts back. you showed that this suspect lived on Webb in Vallejo.
Did you ever connect the Halloween Card, and the webb that was on that card as a clue ? Just a thought.

You also asked if anyone had any Riverside articles ? I have some ,if you would like them ? Zam will have to scan them for you. I even have a picture from the 66 yr book. that shows two boys wrestling, and in the background there is a man who was a coach with a bad eye, and some scratches on his face. I wrote to Don Berrin who was the coach at Riverside in 66 ,to find out who that man was ? His friend thought he was a coach from San Bernardino, and gave me a name. Someone with that name, was living in Martinez at the time I went looking for him, in the mid 90's

The scratches on his face, and the bad eye, is what grabbed my attention. He looked very much like the Lake B killer, and one of my suspects. First name was Robert, which I believe could be killers first name. Bob,or Bill something like that.
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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:12 pm

The Southern Pacific timetable was ALL red in color and was carried, along with the rule book (small blue binder) by crew members. Every employee had a copy and was responsible for knowing the rules contained in both. (I have a lot of them in my collection, both rule books and timetables-NOT to be confused with passenger schedule timetables, something completely different).

I was sent some info about this thread along with questions about what railroads are in the area, and what brakeman and switchmen do.

Maybe they were posted. I am reading about Morgan Territory Road, which is off of Marsh Creek Road. The only railroad in that area was the Baypoint and Clayton, which ceased operations in the 1940's. In Moraga, the Sacramento Northern Railroad, a subsidiary of Western Pacific, operated from 1909 until February 28, 1957. (Originally called the Oakland, Eastern and Antioch RR, it was sold in 1920 and became the San Francisco-Sacramento Railway, with the nickname "The Short Line" and in 1929, bought by Western Pacific and merged with Northern Electric to go from San Francisco to Chico. The name was changed to Sacramento Northern by WP in 1929. In 1982, WP was absorbed into Union Pacific.

Southern Pacific was the only railroad to serve Vallejo, Benecia and Elmira (Vacaville). Further north, the Vallejo Line became the Napa Branch Line (used by the wine train today) and all were part of the Martinez Sub-Division.

Going back to the old days, brakes were not connected via hose, and it was the brakeman who had to climb up the side stairs of a car, walk the roof
(or side if a tanker or hopper) and set the brake, climb down the roof and on to the next car and repeat the routine for the length of the train.

When dynamic braking was introduced in the late 1960's, it was the brakeman's job to make sure the hoses were connected securely. He had to walk the length of the train. Every time a main line train stopped in a yard to pick-up or set-out cars, the brakeman had to inspect and connect the hoses
and then it took about 45 minutes for the air pressure to build up before the train could move.

A switchman was responsible for throwing manual switches and usually worked on locals. For example, the only way for Southern Pacific to access Vallejo was to use the CAL-P and go to Fairfield, and switch to a spur line that led to Vallejo.

Only locals worked Vallejo. On Track Warrent Control Areas, (TWC) the switches are manual and the brakeman has to throw them for meets; on Centralized Traffic Control (CTC) the dispatcher and/or interlocking tower operator threw the switches, so a brakeman was not needed on any CTC lines, of which most single track main lines were.

Today, the jobs of brakeman, fireman and switchman are gone. So are train order boards and interlocking towers. They were eliminated by 1996. The crew only consists of the engineer and conductor.
ALL switches are thrown by the dispatcher who, for NORCAL and all UP or BNSF lines are in Omaha, Nebraska or Fort Worth, Texas, if BN-SF. SP was merged into Union Pacific in 1996 as well as Santa-Fe being absorbed into Burlington Northern that same year.

If the Red Phanton POI is thought to have worked for SP, as a brakeman, this information should help.


Last edited by Trainmaster on Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:21 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : eyesight)
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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:46 pm

tahoe27 wrote:
morf13 wrote:
This POI was a brakeman for the railroad. Perhaps, if he was the Zodiac, he called himself 'red phantom' in his last confirmed letter because of this book(notice that the phantom brakeman on the cover is painted RED)


Hmm...I wonder if anything else may have attracted him to this book. Wink

Yeah, Tahoe, I agree, yet another reason to identify with the book.....I actually missed that little tidbit early this morning when I posted. Thanks
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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:50 pm

sandy betts wrote:
Several posts back. you showed that this suspect lived on Webb in Vallejo.
Did you ever connect the Halloween Card, and the webb that was on that card as a clue ? Just a thought.

You also asked if anyone had any Riverside articles ? I have some ,if you would like them ? Zam will have to scan them for you. I even have a picture from the 66 yr book. that shows two boys wrestling, and in the background there is a man who was a coach with a bad eye, and some scratches on his face. I wrote to Don Berrin who was the coach at Riverside in 66 ,to find out who that man was ? His friend thought he was a coach from San Bernardino, and gave me a name. Someone with that name, was living in Martinez at the time I went looking for him, in the mid 90's

The scratches on his face, and the bad eye, is what grabbed my attention. He looked very much like the Lake B killer, and one of my suspects. First name was Robert, which I believe could be killers first name. Bob,or Bill something like that.

Thanks Sandy. Yes, he did live on Webb st in Vallejo. But going by public records, they are very sketchy. In the background search I did, it states that he last used that address in Vallejo (and one in Clayton)in 1974. But I did verify, he never owned any property in Solano County. Also, that address he used was sold in October, 1969, and may have actually been for sale in August of 1969, so if he was living there and renting, he may have been notified that he would have to leave, and if he was Z, that could be why he signed the one letter "no address". I am tempted to try and contact the person (at least attempt to)that sold & bought the property in October 69 to see if they know this POI or remember him.

Yes, he was on the wrestling team, and I would be interested in seeing the name of the other student that was on the wrestling team and living in Martinez. Thanks


Last edited by morf13 on Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:50 pm

Trainmaster wrote:
The Southern Pacific timetable was ALL red in color and was carried, along with the rule book (small blue binder) by crew members. Every employee had a copy and was responsible for knowing the rules contained in both. (I have a lot of them in my collection, both rule books and timetables-NOT to be confused with passenger schedule timetables, something completely different).

I was sent some info about this thread along with questions about what railroads are in the area, and what brakeman and switchmen do.

Maybe they were posted. I am reading about Morgan Territory Road, which is off of Marsh Creek Road. The only railroad in that area was the Baypoint and Clayton, which ceased operations in the 1940's. In Moraga, the Sacramento Northern Railroad, a subsidiary of Western Pacific, operated from 1909 until February 28, 1957. (Originally called the Oakland, Eastern and Antioch RR, it was sold in 1920 and became the San Francisco-Sacramento Railway, with the nickname "The Short Line" and in 1929, bought by Western Pacific and merged with Northern Electric to go from San Francisco to Chico. The name was changed to Sacramento Northern by WP in 1929. In 1982, WP was absorbed into Union Pacific.

Southern Pacific was the only railroad to serve Vallejo, Benecia and Elmira (Vacaville). Further north, the Vallejo Line became the Napa Branch Line (used by the wine train today) and all were part of the Martinez Sub-Division.

Going back to the old days, brakes were not connected via hose, and it was the brakeman who had to climb up the side stairs of a car, walk the roof
(or side if a tanker or hopper) and set the brake, climb down the roof and on to the next car and repeat the routine for the length of the train.

When dynamic braking was introduced in the late 1960's, it was the brakeman's job to make sure the hoses were connected securely. He had to walk the length of the train. Every time a main line train stopped in a yard to pick-up or set-out cars, the brakeman had to inspect and connect the hoses
and then it took about 45 minutes for the air pressure to build up before the train could move.

A switchman was responsible for throwing manual switches and usually worked on locals. For example, the only way for Southern Pacific to access Vallejo was to use the CAL-P and go to Fairfield, and switch to a spur line that led to Vallejo.

Only locals worked Vallejo. On Track Warrent Control Areas, (TWC) the switches are manual and the brakeman has to throw them for meets; on Centralized Traffic Control (CTC) the dispatcher and/or interlocking tower operator threw the switches, so a brakeman was not needed on any CTC lines, of which most single track main lines were.

Today, the jobs of brakeman, fireman and switchman are gone. So are train order boards and interlocking towers. They were eliminated by 1996. The crew only consists of the engineer and conductor.
ALL switches are thrown by the dispatcher who, for NORCAL and all UP or BNSF lines are in Omaha, Nebraska or Fort Worth, Texas, if BN-SF. SP was merged into Union Pacific in 1996 as well as Santa-Fe being absorbed into Burlington Northern that same year.

If the Red Phanton POI is thought to have worked for SP, as a brakeman, this information should help.

Thanks Trainmaster, very helpful.
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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:59 pm

I can now place this suspect's Family in the bay area from 1966-1968. They were military and lived on Hamilton AFB from 66-68. So Riverside from 61-66, Hamilton AFB from 66-68, then back down to Riverside after 1968....at least his parents I should say, as well as his younger siblings. So we now have a guy that was in Riverside in 66, knew Cheri Jo Bates, and then in SF bay area circa 1968, and likely beyond. Also, can you say WINGWALKERS?
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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:35 pm

Did he himself serve in the Air Force, though?
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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:18 pm

Nachtsider wrote:
Did he himself serve in the Air Force, though?

I dont believe so. I am verifying with a Family member, but I think that this POI definitely lived in Vallejo during the Z years. If he did, and he also knew Bates, then that puts him way up the ladder on my Z suspect list
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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:59 pm

I just confirmed with 100% certainty, that this POI DID live in Vallejo during the Z years! Shocked How many fellow classmates of Cheri's lived there at that time? I would bet he is the only one. And if the writing expert(s) are right, somebody living in Vallejo during the Z murders had lived in Riverside, and had written notes in the Bates case, this may very well be the guy.
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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:05 pm

Just curious, being new to this POI, is the guy still around?

Also, I remember Hamilton AFB was off 101, but does anyone remember where it was?
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PostSubject: Re: Classmate of Cheri Jo Bates that wound up living in Vallejo   Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:06 pm

Trainmaster wrote:
Just curious, being new to this POI, is the guy still around?

Also, I remember Hamilton AFB was off 101, but does anyone remember where it was?

This guy IS in the northern CA area near Clayton.
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PostSubject: Clayton   Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:33 pm

Wow, I am less than 15 min from Clayton. I go there a lot ! You have to have a pretty good bank roll to live there.
One of my boyfriends lived there, it would be something if the suspect was his neighbor ?

There is a road that runs off of the main road in Clayton. Its called Marsh Creek road.
The sheriffs dept. were looking for a man, who was following women late at night on that road ,and another country road named Vasco rd.
He would flash his lights , not sure if he also honked his horn, but none of the women would stop . They said he drove a green car, is all they told police. I will have to dig deep to find that article ! It was in the late 80's early 90's. Very Z like, is what I thought when I read it. Both of those roads are very dark at night. ( like 132 in Modesto)
Vasco rd is a way to Livermore, where some female bodys have been found, Those cases are still unsolved.
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PostSubject: Train, Morf & Sandy   Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:52 am

Train....Hamilton AFB was located off 101 in Novato. If heading N. on 101 it would be on the east side (right side) of 101.

I don't think POI was ever in Military himself. I don't see how he could have avoided the draft, but I couldn't find anything on him in the military. His daddy was another story and maybe he pulled strings somehow to keep his son out of military service.

Sandy....I recall that case of the guy driving around Vasco Rd. I think it was in mid 80's. I recall a very similar case was happening in Cupertino Area back then and there was speculation that it was the same guy.
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