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 More on Don Bujok

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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:01 am

I'd have to agree, that Bujok is a wonderful suspect. In fact, my favorite of all time. That three day window, however, really sticks in my craw. Wouldn't SOMEONE have to have been accountable for Bujok's whereabouts subsequent to his release (parents, parole officer)? A man is paroled and then immediately crosses state lines? Yeah, it's possible I guess. I've known some bi-polar folks over the years (including my ex-wife), so it's not out of the realm of possibility that he could have hopped in his car and headed for the West Coast, just on a whim. But why Vallejo? A suggestion from Valentine or Edwards? It would be nice if someone were able to pick Valentine's brain (what's left of it). All in all, Kevin's doing a great job obtaining some decent info and has some great leads. Excellent work.

-tbz
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:31 am

Today, when I speak to


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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:15 am

I also have a feeling that the Parole officers out there in Tumbleweed MT...oops I mean Roundup, MT, Very Happy were a top notch, no holds barred team of parole officers. I dont think it would be a stretch for Bujok to go whereever he wanted for days on end without anyone being the wiser.
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PostSubject: Manic Depression   Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:43 am

Gone


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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:45 pm

Haven't read up on these guys that much so I'm not bias either way. Getting a car quick back in that day wouldn't have been a hard thing to do if Bujok had a little money on him when he got out. Also maybe he had a ex-con friend that got out of prison before him that hooked him up.

Maybe this ex-con lived in Vallejo or the surrounding area and him and Bujok had this plan set up months in advance for when Bujok got released. Just throwing this idea out there and again don't really have a opinion yet on these guys but will read up this weekend.

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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:14 pm

thebigZ wrote:
That three day window, however, really sticks in my craw.

Try not to let it stick too hard in your craw tbz...maybe LHR wasn't Zodiac. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:18 pm

According to Ed Edwards' book (p. 381), there was a 50 day wait period after he got paroled at Lewisburg penetentiary and prior to the actual release. There is lots of paperwork involved when getting paroled.

-Nin
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:31 am

tahoe27 wrote:
thebigZ wrote:
That three day window, however, really sticks in my craw.

Try not to let it stick too hard in your craw tbz...maybe LHR wasn't Zodiac. Smile

Are you suggesting Z may have simply "taken credit" for LHR? That's pretty much what I believe about the Bates murder.
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:02 am

thebigZ wrote:
tahoe27 wrote:
thebigZ wrote:
That three day window, however, really sticks in my craw.

Try not to let it stick too hard in your craw tbz...maybe LHR wasn't Zodiac. Smile

Are you suggesting Z may have simply "taken credit" for LHR? That's pretty much what I believe about the Bates murder.


I am always interested in what "the other half" says about Lake Herman Rd NOT being the work of The Zodiac. It seems like there is an evenly mixed crowd of opinions on this. Personally, I think LHR was Zodiac's work all day long. If not, we have to believe that there are two separate cold blooded killers in Vallejo during the same stretch. And the M.O. of Zodiac at BRS, was very similar to that of Lake Herman Rd, with the exception that Zodiac likely learned from his mistakes at LHR and corrected them at BRS, such as NOT engaging the couple getting them out of the car, and risking one running off.

The 6 minute window is what bothers me here. If it was a hit, or it was over an argument, I think that more people would have seen Zodiac as they passed by, and there may have been more conversation between the killer & victims. The fact that the killer was in and out in a couple minutes tells me that he happened to pass the scene and just happened to find somebody there.
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PostSubject: Spoke with prison guard again.    Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:21 am

Nin wrote:
According to Ed Edwards' book (p. 381), there was a 50 day wait period after he got paroled at Lewisburg penetentiary and prior to the actual release. There is lots of paperwork involved when getting paroled.

-Nin



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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:26 am

Kevin B wrote:
Nin wrote:
According to Ed Edwards' book (p. 381), there was a 50 day wait period after he got paroled at Lewisburg penetentiary and prior to the actual release. There is lots of paperwork involved when getting paroled.

-Nin

Talked to former Prison Guard Bob McNally and he told me the printed date it said he was paroled was the day he left. I think it was December 17th 1968? I have to look at my notes. I also have the number of the Deputy Warden and a Captain. On a sour note, Ken Minnie (Real estate Agent) who knew Don Bujok said, 'none of the composites looked like him.' I even sent the sunbather composite.

I did learn there was an upholstery shop where there were sewing machines to teach the inmates to repair mattress and such. There was also typing classes. Bob told me he remembers Bujok very well and they had a saying there that was, the guards spent 90% of their time watching 10% of the prison population; as those were the ones you could not leave for a second. Don Bujok was a constant disciplinary problem. He was written up often. He also spent time in a mental hospital 'The Montana State hospital at Warm Springs.' I don't know how to confirm that though, as there are laws about certain information. I would like to know the years and if it correlates with Zodiac’s no communication through a few years.

He also told me that some inmates were in to Satanism. He did not say he remembered if Don was. He said Don always was always reading… The information is pretty vague at times....
Nothing new here I’m waiting on the theater information.

Kevin B.

What amazes me is, if he was such a disciplinary problem who was written up often... how in the heck did he get paroled? Gotta love our justice system.
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:17 am

Good work, keep digging Kevin
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:27 am

morf13 wrote:
Good work, keep digging Kevin

Agree!

-Nin
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:35 am

Nin wrote:
morf13 wrote:
Good work, keep digging Kevin

Agree!

-Nin

Nin, if you or Morf want any of these numbers of these people you are more than welcome. I think the people on this board are great! I don't know if any of these guys is Z but they are interesting and there are some good signs... I spoke with Don Bujoks nephew the other day and he told me he has old pictures of Don. I asked about writing and he said he didn't know where he could find it but he would ask other family. Tthe eerie thing he did tell me when I asked what color is hair was he said Redish Brown and receded. Another fella told me the composites I sent look nothing like Don.....?
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:04 am

morf13 wrote:
Personally, I think LHR was Zodiac's work all day long. If not, we have to believe that there are two separate cold blooded killers in Vallejo during the same stretch. And the M.O. of Zodiac at BRS, was very similar to that of Lake Herman Rd....

The odds are that Zodiac was probably responsible for LHR and BRS however Z wasn't a totally original killer and there's every chance he was quite the copycat himself. His murder of Stine pretty much followed straight on from various gunpoint robberies of cab drivers in the area and Lake Berryessa came after the newspapers were full of the Manson atrocities where young people were tied up, stabbed to death and the killer's message was scrawled on their wall. He also seemed to have mimicked Jack the Ripper with his media campaign which included sending a bloody item from a victim to the media.

I still think LHR was likely Z but he did have a habit of turning up in areas and possibly copying murders - maybe to confuse LE. Of course, a criminal copying a murder in an area has the advantage of LE concentrating their efforts looking for suspects that match both murders. Guys like Frank Dryman who didn't turn up in Vallejo until January probably would have been discounted from the BRS murder as Z got all the police believing he was responsible for both crimes and Dryman for example was obviously still banged up in Dec 68.

Going back to your point - two serial killers in Vallejo in a year is definitely against the odds but there was a lot of drug activity at that time in the area, a few murders and there was even a drug bust on LHR on the night of the murders and Faraday was at a known drugs meeting area and apparently acting as a grass. LHR could well have just been a drug related shooting and Z just did something similar half a year later in the area to "tie" himself in with the crimes?

Of course, this could mean that Owen was somehow responsible for LHR but wasn't Z and by August when LE checked him out, they were looking for someone whose handwriting matched Z, etc, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:29 am

Quagmire wrote:
morf13 wrote:
Personally, I think LHR was Zodiac's work all day long. If not, we have to believe that there are two separate cold blooded killers in Vallejo during the same stretch. And the M.O. of Zodiac at BRS, was very similar to that of Lake Herman Rd....

The odds are that Zodiac was probably responsible for LHR and BRS however Z wasn't a totally original killer and there's every chance he was quite the copycat himself. His murder of Stine pretty much followed straight on from various gunpoint robberies of cab drivers in the area and Lake Berryessa came after the newspapers were full of the Manson atrocities where young people were tied up, stabbed to death and the killer's message was scrawled on their wall. He also seemed to have mimicked Jack the Ripper with his media campaign which included sending a bloody item from a victim to the media.

I still think LHR was likely Z but he did have a habit of turning up in areas and possibly copying murders - maybe to confuse LE. Of course, a criminal copying a murder in an area has the advantage of LE concentrating their efforts looking for suspects that match both murders. Guys like Frank Dryman who didn't turn up in Vallejo until January probably would have been discounted from the BRS murder as Z got all the police believing he was responsible for both crimes and Dryman for example was obviously still banged up in Dec 68.Going back to your point - two serial killers in Vallejo in a year is definitely against the odds but there was a lot of drug activity at that time in the area, a few murders and there was even a drug bust on LHR on the night of the murders and Faraday was at a known drugs meeting area and apparently acting as a grass. LHR could well have just been a drug related shooting and Z just did something similar half a year later in the area to "tie" himself in with the crimes?

Of course, this could mean that Owen was somehow responsible for LHR but wasn't Z and by August when LE checked him out, they were looking for someone whose handwriting matched Z, etc, etc.

Now that is a great thought. If Z was somebody that was locked up on 12/20/68, but wanted to give himself a 'reverse alibi', he likely would have said on the phone,which Z did, 'i also killed those kids last year". If police believed that the perp was the same guy, they would rule out anyone that was in prison on 12/20/68. Personally, I still believe that LHR & all the rest of the Z criems were committed by the same perp, but you brought up some food for thought.
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:07 pm

With Owen heading past LHR half an hour early for work, it makes you wonder if he was going to meet someone to pick up some "recreational" herbs on his way to work. He could be responsible for the murders along with someone else (the person he was meeting).

Alternatively some guys had just been busted down the road for drugs by the police within the previous hour - maybe someone connected to this went straight by LHR and murdered David thinking he was responsible or headed there to offload something and found David and Betty in the way? Loads of possibilities with his particular murder and it might be nothing to do with a serial killer although Z certainly included it in his resume 6 months later...
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:19 pm

Quagmire wrote:
With Owen heading past LHR half an hour early for work, it makes you wonder if he was going to meet someone to pick up some "recreational" herbs on his way to work. He could be responsible for the murders along with someone else (the person he was meeting).

Alternatively some guys had just been busted down the road for drugs by the police within the previous hour - maybe someone connected to this went straight by LHR and murdered David thinking he was responsible or headed there to offload something and found David and Betty in the way? Loads of possibilities with his particular murder and it might be nothing to do with a serial killer although Z certainly included it in his resume 6 months later...

Not sure what Owen was into, but after retiring from the Air Force i wouldnt think it was to score pot, but it was the 60s so who knows?
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:45 pm

Totally plucking the idea out of thin air but maybe he was selling a bit to make cash on the side? A long shot but just looking for other ideas for why he might have been passing that LHR area half an hour earlier than he was due to be in work - that is other than possibly looking to kill people!
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:54 pm

I question LHR AND LB as being Zodiac crimes so I don't consider anyone out of the loop! Smile

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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:16 pm

tahoe27 wrote:
I question LHR AND LB as being Zodiac crimes so I don't consider anyone out of the loop! Smile

Yes, agreed. It's easy to get sucked into the case and link lots of murders with Z - he certainly claimed or hinted responsibility for dozens of them. When looking at the crimes I tend to consider them as follows:

BRS + Stine: 100% Z (due to posted evidence)
LB: Probably Z (due mainly to handwriting on car - but wouldn't discount someone else)
LHR: More than likely Z but still some degree of doubt (due to no phone calls/letters/taunts, etc for over 6mths & lack of real solid evidence from Z)
Bates: 50/50 (Z like consistencies and he possibly did send the letters but I wouldn't rule anyone out - especially the Bartlett guy)
Kathleen Johns: 50/50 (he boasts of it and she said the perp looked like the composite - but he just drives her around for hours??)
Domingos/Edwards: 50/50 (eerily similar MO to LB but different area and different time so unsure)
Donna Lass: 30/70 against Z (a vague postcard & xmas card are interesting but nothing else matches Z MO)

In summary, if a suspect comes up who can be linked to all of the above then brilliant - we've probably got our man. I personally think Z was only responsible for just over half of these though and actually think he's more than likely responsible for shooting Radetich.


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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:17 pm

Quagmire wrote:
Totally plucking the idea out of thin air but maybe he was selling a bit to make cash on the side? A long shot but just looking for other ideas for why he might have been passing that LHR area half an hour earlier than he was due to be in work - that is other than possibly looking to kill people!

He told me on the phone that he always went in early.
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:39 am

Received Bujoks Military rercords yesterday....

don't have time to post but I will do as soon as I can.

Kevin b.
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Sun Sep 11, 2011 9:00 am

Kevin B wrote:
Received Bujoks Military rercords yesterday....

don't have time to post but I will do as soon as I can.

Kevin b.

Glad to hear, anything of interest? I am still awaiting my set, so mine should be here any day as well.
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PostSubject: Re: More on Don Bujok   Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:41 pm

I have deleted the troublesome thread about Kevin solving the case. I will be leaving this original thread about Bujok here for those that are interested.
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