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 The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok

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Azazel
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:31 am



Anthony Flacco is releasing a book about Frank Dryman.. Im searching for a link for that though.
I feel that these three suspects and Bujok especially is amazing.
Sometimes coincidences are only coincidences.
40 years later this guy is described with those black glasses, pouch, army crew cut, walking with a limp.
40 years later we find this guy have been starting writing to the newspaper firstly about the Exorcist in the same manner as Zodiac did.
This guy goes on to protest about the violence in cartoons as did Zodiac in his Badlands letter.
He even had a car with the same measurement as the tiretracks indicated at Lake Berryessa.
Even the fact he was poor would explain the different tires.

But on the other hand, why would he target San Francisco? I guess there could be alot of reasons.
Perhaps someone in prison ranted about how the decadence had taken over San Francisco. Hippies, Vietnam protestors, communistic epicenter.
San Francisco could in some peoples eyes have been the center for spreading decadence.
And if it was some kind of revenge on the justice system, wouldn´t the attacks been targeting Washington?
Perhaps one of the three got the "inspiration" from Bates murder?
And why Vallejo? If it was Bujok alone? That doesn´t make that much sense. I guess people just dont stumble upon Vallejo and end up on Lake Herman road.
Everything is possible though. Someone really should try to get in contact with Dryman. Just remember that he is permanently insane...=)

And the Mikado. Though since it might be Groucho Marxs The Mikado radio version that doesn´t have to imply the Zodiac was some fancy opera attender.
That might even explain the somewhat distorted lyrics.
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:52 am

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/crime_and_courts/article_bab0a888-585c-11df-9874-001cc4c03286.html#ixzz1VOTIZbSb

It was a correctional officer in Leavenworth Federal Penitentiary who helped him turn his life around, Edwards wrote in his 1972 book, "Metamorphosis of a Criminal: the True Life Story of Ed Edwards." For a few years, Edwards even supplemented his living with lectures about his transformation from criminal to family man.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2009/07/19/MNGA18D3FV.DTL&o=1&type=printable
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/07/19/MNGA18D3FV.DTL&type=printable



"The individual proceeded to inform me that he was the Zodiac Killer and we proceeded to talk about this legal jeopardy based on the facts provided. Having been pre-med at UC, I took some courses in psychology and I perceived this confession to be of a cathartic nature wherein the individual is changing his life's path."

The Merchant Marine ID could have easily been obtained. I doubt that the individual really gave his true identity.

-Nin
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:10 pm

http://www.scribd.com/doc/33084082/June-15-2010

"Shelby cafe owner Clem [Clarence] Pellett" ,cursive and braquets mine

Frank Dryman, owner of Four Corner Cafe

Do we know when Frank Dryman operated the Cafe? Also, here is a pic of his " wedding chapel ", holy schmucks.. Very Happy

"He not only ran the Arizona wedding chapel, but he was also a notary public, entrusted to verify the identities of people signing legal documents. Apparently, Arizona’s Secretary of State isn’t allowed to run background checks on notary applicants."



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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:31 pm

Great Falls Tribune 4/4/10



Left:

Family photo.
Navy Reunion
Dryman's Business Sign (aka Victor Houston)
Dryman marries a couple.

**When Rufus first told me about Dryman last year, I contacted the reporter who wrote this story. I was told by him that Dryman didn't stay long in Vallejo and didn't have much of a connection to Napa other than being born there.

Regarding the family photo above, this is what the reporter told me:

"I don't know why my editors put "1954" on the photo. That was not the information I gave them. I don't know when that photo was taken, but I assume it was taken shortly after Frank, the smaller boy in the uniform, enlisted in the Navy. That photo is of his mother, three of his brothers and his only sister. I think it might have been taken in 1945.

I believe he might have been in Vallejo for a short period after he was discharged. He was discharged for medical reasons after he was poisoned by paint fumes abort the USS Princeton. I believe he had an aunt in the area he was quite fond of and he lived with her for about a year before he took off for Reno, then Las Vegas, and finally Montana. I believe he was driving a pie truck."


Last edited by tahoe27 on Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:43 pm

Nin wrote:
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/crime_and_courts/article_bab0a888-585c-11df-9874-001cc4c03286.html#ixzz1VOTIZbSb

It was a correctional officer in Leavenworth Federal Penitentiary who helped him turn his life around, Edwards wrote in his 1972 book, "Metamorphosis of a Criminal: the True Life Story of Ed Edwards." For a few years, Edwards even supplemented his living with lectures about his transformation from criminal to family man.

...

"The individual proceeded to inform me that he was the Zodiac Killer and we proceeded to talk about this legal jeopardy based on the facts provided. Having been pre-med at UC, I took some courses in psychology and I perceived this confession to be of a cathartic nature wherein the individual is changing his life's path."

The Merchant Marine ID could have easily been obtained. I doubt that the individual really gave his true identity.

-Nin



Tarbox says he has never heard from the seaman again. He said he often wondered why the seaman chose him to hear his confession and concluded it might be a matter of the city's geography.

Geography? Uh..

Edward W Edwards:

May 18 1962: Sentenced to 16 years in Leavenworth Federal Penitentiary.

Read more: http://host.madison.com/wsj/article_1604863a-741b-11df-ae59-001cc4c03286.html#ixzz1VP22nspK

(from TF post)

San Francisco 1970 Directory:

Home address: Tarbox Robert E 2430 Leavnworth ......771-3287
Office address in 1970 was: 1090 Montgomery St Apt 294, San Francisco,
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:45 pm

tahoe27 wrote:
Great Falls Tribune 4/4/10

..

Left:

Family photo.
Navy Reunion
Dryman's Business Sign (aka Victor Houston)
Dryman marries a couple.

**When Rufus first told me about Dryman last year, I contacted the reporter who wrote this story. I was told by him that Dryman didn't stay long in Vallejo and didn't have much of a connection to Napa other than being born there.

Tahoe, do you have a better quality pic of that newspaper article? Or a transcript? Nice find.

-Nin
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:47 pm

I will have to look back. You had to pay to view this article online so I need to check back and see if I can still access it. I know everyone would like to read it!
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:53 pm

tahoe27 wrote:
Great Falls Tribune 4/4/10

...

Regarding the family photo above, this is what the reporter told me:

"I don't know why my editors put "1954" on the photo. That was not the information I gave them. I don't know when that photo was taken, but I assume it was taken shortly after Frank, the smaller boy in the uniform, enlisted in the Navy. That photo is of his mother, three of his brothers and his only sister. I think it might have been taken in 1945.
...

I understand Frank enlisted in 1948 and was discharged in 1949 (he received pension payment for the time served). So the pic may be from around that time then.

-Nin
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:56 pm

Great linking back to Tarbox NIN.

The more I read about these 3, the less I lean towards Bujok. The other two were cold blooded killers. Dryman shot a man who gave him a lift and was running away. We know what Edwards got up to. On the other hand, Bujok shot a cop who had cornered him after stealing a car. The cop was a threat to Bujok, not an innocent bystander.

At this stage I'm wondering whether Edwards was covering himself. We know just how conniving he was. He would easily write that Bujok was the guy who believed in the slaves for the afterlife when it was actually Edwards himself. Even the letters to the editor. Who's to say Don Bujok actually wrote them? Could it have been Edwards using Bujok's name? I would love to know where they were posted from.

Having said all that, the one who looks most like the Z composite is Dryman.
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:08 pm

thebigZ wrote:
Several months ago, I spoke with John Cameron, the retired homicide detective from Great Falls MT who fingered Edwards as the Zodiac. He forwarded to me a copy of his report to LE detailing all his "evidence." If anyone is interested in reading this report, PM your email address to me and I'll send you the pdf file. Be warned, however, that his attempt at decrypting the ciphers leaves a bit to be desired.

-tbz

Thanks for the email,Big Z.

Stine was shot in front of Edwards' relatives' house according to the report ???

-Nin
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:10 pm

Luke68 wrote:
..

At this stage I'm wondering whether Edwards was covering himself. We know just how conniving he was. He would easily write that Bujok was the guy who believed in the slaves for the afterlife when it was actually Edwards himself. Even the letters to the editor. Who's to say Don Bujok actually wrote them? Could it have been Edwards using Bujok's name? I would love to know where they were posted from.

Having said all that, the one who looks most like the Z composite is Dryman.

Agree completely, Luke.
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:22 pm

Nin wrote:
thebigZ wrote:
Several months ago, I spoke with John Cameron, the retired homicide detective from Great Falls MT who fingered Edwards as the Zodiac. He forwarded to me a copy of his report to LE detailing all his "evidence." If anyone is interested in reading this report, PM your email address to me and I'll send you the pdf file. Be warned, however, that his attempt at decrypting the ciphers leaves a bit to be desired.

-tbz

Thanks for the email,Big Z.

Stine was shot in front of Edwards' relatives' house according to the report ???

-Nin

Also, according to the report Edwards was paroled in December of 1967. So he was available for LHR!

-Nin
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:34 pm

Luke68 wrote:
Great linking back to Tarbox NIN.

The more I read about these 3, the less I lean towards Bujok. The other two were cold blooded killers. Dryman shot a man who gave him a lift and was running away. We know what Edwards got up to. On the other hand, Bujok shot a cop who had cornered him after stealing a car. The cop was a threat to Bujok, not an innocent bystander.

At this stage I'm wondering whether Edwards was covering himself. We know just how conniving he was. He would easily write that Bujok was the guy who believed in the slaves for the afterlife when it was actually Edwards himself. Even the letters to the editor. Who's to say Don Bujok actually wrote them? Could it have been Edwards using Bujok's name? I would love to know where they were posted from.

Having said all that, the one who looks most like the Z composite is Dryman.

I am sure that they were likely from the Roundup, MT area where Bujok lived. KevinB talked to people that knew Bujok pretty well. I am sure that Bujok would have been alarmed if people were continuously writing letters to the editor in his town using his name. Andif these guys were setting up Bujok or using him as a patsy, why wouldnt they have planted specific clues pointing right to Bujok? It is a neat idea, but I would bet that Bujok wrote the letters.
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:35 pm

Nin wrote:
thebigZ wrote:
Several months ago, I spoke with John Cameron, the retired homicide detective from Great Falls MT who fingered Edwards as the Zodiac. He forwarded to me a copy of his report to LE detailing all his "evidence." If anyone is interested in reading this report, PM your email address to me and I'll send you the pdf file. Be warned, however, that his attempt at decrypting the ciphers leaves a bit to be desired.

-tbz

Thanks for the email,Big Z.

Stine was shot in front of Edwards' relatives' house according to the report ???

-Nin

I would love to see a copy of this report, can anyone send it to me?
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:00 pm



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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:39 pm

Nin wrote:



Thanks for posting that...not much like Z writing, IMO


Last edited by morf13 on Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:43 pm

Turkey Pete

http://www.legendsofamerica.com/mt-prisonmuseum.html

Also, remember Deer Lodge old State Prison had the W.CLARK Theater, wondering if the had played the Mikado..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montana_State_Prison
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:57 pm

That writing has a low cross "t" like Zodiac, but the "r" is totally different, as is the "k", and most everything else too.

I take it Edwards was in prison between October 1966 and April 1967? If so then he could not have killed Bates or done any of the writings in that case, which IMO anyway pretty much excludes him as a serious Z suspect.

I may not be understanding how people think this group could have operated as a team, but I have never thought any "Team Zodiac" theories make much sense, looking at Lake Berryessa and others the writer of the letters was the killer it seems.

Also, I see nothing to make me think any of these guys knew codes or could devise a code that defies FBI efforts to break it. Or have the Zodiac interests in codes, radians, maps, symbols, Norse/Occult themes. One letter from Bujok is anti-occult and says it is all "BS", whereas Zodiac at least flirted with some occult and horror themes (though I suspect that Z perhaps thought they were mostly BS and just used them for shock value and misdirection).

I do see the Deer Lodge connection, and the fact that these guys are criminals and some are killers. One problem would be Zodiac never stole anything even when he had the chance, whereas these guys seem motivated more by money and typical criminal pursuits.

I may be in the minority on this, so who knows. I could be wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:24 pm

AK Wilks wrote:
That writing has a low cross "t" like Zodiac, but the "r" is totally different, as is the "k", and most everything else too.

I take it Edwards was in prison between October 1966 and April 1967? If so then he could not have killed Bates or done any of the writings in that case, which IMO anyway pretty much excludes him as a serious Z suspect.

I may not be understanding how people think this group could have operated as a team, but I have never thought any "Team Zodiac" theories make much sense, looking at Lake Berryessa and others the writer of the letters was the killer it seems.

Also, I see nothing to make me think any of these guys knew codes or could devise a code that defies FBI efforts to break it. Or have the Zodiac interests in codes, radians, maps, symbols, Norse/Occult themes. One letter from Bujok is anti-occult and says it is all "BS", whereas Zodiac at least flirted with some occult and horror themes (though I suspect that Z perhaps thought they were mostly BS and just used them for shock value and misdirection).

I do see the Deer Lodge connection, and the fact that these guys are criminals and some are killers. One problem would be Zodiac never stole anything even when he had the chance, whereas these guys seem motivated more by money and typical criminal pursuits.

I may be in the minority on this, so who knows. I could be wrong.


Ak, I never liked the idea of a Z team either, but if ever there was one, this would likely be the team. Out of all of the prisons, or cities in the world, Zodiac mentions DEER LODGE to Hartnell.

So then we have Valentine/Dryman, who had family in Napa, and who had himself lived in Vallejo previously, and had recently gotten out of Deer Lodge.
We have Bujok, who was a prolific letter writer to the editor of his local newspaper (including an exorcist letter) near DEER LODGE, and he likely knew Dryman/Valentine.

Finally, we have Edwards who was in DEER LODGE, and wrote of his time there in his book, in which, he mentions BUJOK. Edwards would later kill a couple on a lovers lane, and be suspected of other lovers lane murders.

Edwards appears to have been out in time to pull the trigger on LHR. Valentine/Dryman, was out just after the LHR murders, and definitely available for the Berryessa attack. And as for Bujok, he apparently was out in the early to mid 60s (people are trying to verify that),but lived quite some distance from the bay area. He looked a bit like the Z sketch, was stocky, and around 200 lbs, wore glasses, and had some walking issues.

Again, I wouldnt rule out some involvement by one or more of these guys, based on the mention of DEER LODGE. I winder how many guys in the Napa area had been in prison at Deer Lodge??? Not many, but one for sure is Dryman/Valentine.
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:48 pm

All good points, and I am glad several good people are looking at this.

The problem for me is Edwards is in prison for the Bates murder and letters. Edwards is the one killing people at lovers lanes. But if he was in prison for Bates murder and letters, then IMO he can't be Zodiac. So Edwards could have killed at Lake Berryessa, but IMO could not have written on the card door, as that writing matches other Zodiac letters and some of the Bates writings in particular the poem and parts of the letter envelopes.

Maybe Zodiac was two guys, but we never have any witness sightings of two men. The team idea just doesn't match the known facts in the case IMO.

Of course "Deer Lodge" is a major clue, I agree on that. It could be a person who was in prison there would tell a victim he escaped from there, sure. But IMO it could also just be something Zodiac said because it was on his mind or he had recently driven through the area. In other words, if Zodiac had just driven by San Quentin prison, he might have said "I just escaped from San Quentin".

I just don't see any of these convicts having the intellectual abilities or interests of Zodiac. They seem more like typical cons, motivated by greed and lack of impulse control.
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:52 pm

AK Wilks wrote:
All good points, and I am glad several good people are looking at this.

The problem for me is Edwards is in prison for the Bates murder and letters. Edwards is the one killing people at lovers lanes. But if he was in prison for Bates murder and letters, then IMO he can't be Zodiac. So Edwards could have killed at Lake Berryessa, but IMO could not have written on the card door, as that writing matches other Zodiac letters and some of the Bates writings in particular the poem and parts of the letter envelopes.

Maybe Zodiac was two guys, but we never have any witness sightings of two men. The team idea just doesn't match the known facts in the case IMO.

Of course "Deer Lodge" is a major clue, I agree on that. It could be a person who was in prison there would tell a victim he escaped from there, sure. But IMO it could also just be something Zodiac said because it was on his mind or he had recently driven through the area. In other words, if Zodiac had just driven by San Quentin prison, he might have said "I just escaped from San Quentin".

I just don't see any of these convicts having the intellectual abilities or interests of Zodiac. They seem more like typical cons, motivated by greed and lack of impulse control.

No proof Bates was a Z victim (although I think she may have been, or at least, Z may have wrote the letters)...would love to see printing samples of all 3 guys.

From what I have read, both Bujok & Edwards were pretty smart, and if you dont think Bujok writing several letters to a news editor, including one about the exorcist is similar to the interest of Z, then you are not looking at this with an open mind.
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:08 pm

Up until now I thought you agreed that there is a lot of evidence to show Bates was probably killed by Zodiac and that Z almost certainly did the writings in the Bates case. If either is true then I don't see how Edwards can be Zodiac, unless you get into a real 2 or 3 person team theory, which I don't think all the other evidence in the case supports

As I said it is interesting and I am glad some good people are looking at it. I read the Bujok letter about the Exorcist, and the Dick Tracy comic strip, and yes, there is a level of similarity to the Zodiac letters about the Exorcist (same film discussed) and Badlands (complaint about violence).

As I read these letters, however, the content is very different. Bujok seems actually upset about violence in the cartoons, whereas Zodiac the killer is mocking the sensitive people who complain about violence in films. And while Zodiac flirted with occult and horror themes, Bujok seems to reject the occult as being "BS". I see the match up in subject matter, but not ideas.

So Edwards is interesting because he killed in lovers lanes, but is not likely Zodiac IMO because he was in prison for Bates murder and letters, while Bujok is interesting for the letters he wrote, Polish name and other things, but no evidence he killed in lovers lanes. You have to have some kind of team theory here, I respect that others are interested in those theories.

Just giving an alternate point of view, a few thoughts I had that were not otherwise mentioned, people can take em or leave em.
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:19 pm

I definitely think Z could have wrote the Bates letters, but not neccesarily killed her, although he could have as well. Then again, Z may have had nothing to do with the Bates crime, so Iprefer to base a possible Z team on the confirmed Z crimes. If we base alot of research off of "possible Z crimes", I think we tend to use up alot of energy(not that possible Z crimes shouldnt be looked at)
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:37 pm

I agree with you on the "possible" Zodiac crimes like Domingos/Edwards, Lass, Johns, Hakari, Bennallack, Radetich and all of Somona County cases. I would NOT exclude an otherwise good suspect if he was in prison or out of state for any or all of those crimes.

I do feel different about Bates, I think the evidence points to Zodiac probably doing that murder and for sure doing the writings, and that the writings were probably Zodiac (handwriting, tone, and "Z" symbol, etc,) , and that the writer was probably the killer (details in confession letter, poem, etc.). All debatable points but for me in my personal investigation if a suspect is not available for Bates I just don't think they are a good realistic Z suspect. But thats me.

My INSTINCT also tells me Zodiac killed Bates.
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PostSubject: Re: The "Deer Lodge Gang" Edwards/Dryman/Bujok   Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:19 pm

Some of Dryman's handwriting provided to me--this was supposedly written during his time in prison as an autobiography:








Here is a tidbit from his address book--later in life--I have more of this page of the address book, but there is personal info of others there:

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