Gareth Penn

No one is required to reveal their identity here, or post proof of who they are.

Zabag can ask - but Ray G is under no obligation to post his MENSA card or anything else. I think he has established who he is.

Zabagliona will not be posting on this thread anymore.

Regarding lapsed Mensa memberships, here's mine. I don't have my card anymore, and I was surprised to find this stuff. It doesn't surprise me that both Ray Grant and Gareth Penn let their memberships lapse. I was a member for about 4 years, and then let it lapse, well over 10 years ago. Ray described Mensa pretty well -- group of smart but nice people who aren't that interested in doing much. I will say, Mensans LOVE puzzles and codes and ciphers and that sort of thing (IQ tests, after all, are just puzzles) so if someone were to tell me that the Zodiac Killer was a Mensan, I wouldn't be at all surprised. (Like Penn, I also wrote for the regional Mensa magazine, called Totems. Whoopee!).


Letter of Acceptance




Membership Dues bill (enlarge to read better)

Okay, let's try this again. I think I have my scanner/download problems, uh . . . solved.

Let's begin by reviewing my relationship/correspondence with Gareth Penn.

I joined Mensa in 1984. In the July/August 1985 issue of The Mensa Bulletin appeared Gareth Penn's article about the Zodiac murders, "The Calculus Of Evil". I was one of several hundred people who wrote to Gareth immediately afterward, and my impression is that almost all of those people eventually drifted away, leaving a handful of correspondents including myself. During the period from the publication of his article and his last letters to me in May 1989 and May 1990, we exchanged letters often and talked on the phone at least as often.

Mike Martin is correct in characterizing my relationship with Gareth as that of protege/mentor. Gareth is ten years older than I, and I have a brother his age, so our relationship very much resembled the one I have with my older brother, who I used to follow around like a puppy. The notion that I would say something that Gareth disapproved of, and that I would then become combative in the way that he describes, is ludicrous. I respected Gareth's intelligence and opinion, and if he disagreed with something I thought, I didn't push it. As I said, I presented my gun numbers theory to him in 1986; he wrote back, disagreeing with it. I then wrote to him restating the theory and telling him how it backed up his own theory about Michael O'Hare, and Gareth simply dropped the subject. We're talking about three letters in late 1986: my initial theory, Gareth's negative response, my reiteration of that theory, and then we simply moved on and talked about other things.

But let's back up MY version of events, beginning with a Gareth Penn letter from August of that year, which demonstrates my relatively subordinate role in our correspondence:




Note, by the way, that Gareth discusses me in context with calls from other Mensans, for those of you still doubting that I was a Mensa member. The letter of August 26, 1986 should give the reader some idea of the nature of our correspondence--it's a typical Gareth-to-Ray letter.

I will continue this discussion in my next post (so the post doesn't go on and on).

"Ray Grant is just one of hundreds of people with whom I corresponded a quarter century ago, most of whose names I have not retained. I would not characterize him as a “friend.” He presented to me a convoluted theory about the Zodiac’s use of firearms, apparently seeking my endorsement. I didn’t agree with him and told him so. He seemed to feel that he was entitled to my endorsement and became very bitter and accusatory. I haven’t read anything he has had to say since then and so have no idea what his current theories are." Gareth Penn

Okay, so let's look at the letter in which Gareth disagrees with my theory and tells me so:










Note, by the way, that Gareth mentions Berta Margoulies here on the last page, in a letter written the year before he put out Times 17.

Ray, I hate to be a pain, but is there anyway that you can delete the very large photos you uploaded here, then perhaps separate them into smaller photos, and post them one at a time? They are way too big to fit in here properly, which is the reason the thread is very hard to read, and is super wide. Thanks
If you stack them top to bottom, instead of side to side, they should fit properly

Hi morf13,

Is that better? It looks okay on my machine, but I don't want to keep going if people can't read it.

I know there's lots of wasted space, but can you at least read the letters?

much better, thanks

Okay, what have we learned so far?

1, Gareth Penn and I began a correspondence immediately after his Mensa Bulletin article of July/August 1985.

2, By August 1986, we were on fairly familiar terms in our letters.

3, In December 1986, Gareth, in the midst of an 8-page letter to me, disagrees with my gun numbers theory.

As I've said elsewhere, I sent Gareth a letter containing the theory, he wrote back in the letter just posted, and then I sent him a follow-up letter dealing with his objections . . . and then Gareth simply dropped the subject. We never discussed the theory again.

According to Gareth on his gz4216 blog, his rejection of my gun numbers theory soured our relationship, I became bitterly resentful of him, and he never paid attention to anything I said afterward.

Well if that's the case, I wonder how he'd explain the following letter?




So Gareth, what's the best way of characterizing this letter, sent from you to me more than a year-and-a-half after I supposedly became bitter and resentful of your theory-rejection of me?

Would, I don't know . . . 'CORDIAL' . . . be an appropriate adjective?

'CHUMMY'?

If we'd been on the outs for the previous 18 months (as your blog now insists), why would you be including a copy of your family newsletter? Do you always feel that comfortable with those who have expressed bitterness and resentment toward you?

But it doesn't stop there, folks!

For my own edification, how many copies did this brilliant book by such a brilliant man sell? It's an honest question.

Let's now jump ahead many months, to a time AFTER I'd told Gareth that I suspected him of possible involvement with the O'Hares in the planning and execution of the Zodiac murders.

Surely our correspondence would have come to an abrupt end after even the SUGGESTION that he was involved, right? Anyone who's read Times 17 knows that Gareth does not accept even small lapses in politeness when aimed his way, much less a suspicion of multiple murder.

Well, let's take a look at his third-from-last letter to me (that's right, he still had two more to go!):





Gareth says, in his blog, that he stopped paying attention to me after I presented him with my gun numbers theory (in December 1986). Here's a letter from May 1989 which ends with him asking me to let him know what I think.

Now . . . for all of you who've been posting to the effect that Gareth Penn is a much more reliable source than I am, both about our own relationship and about the Zodiac case in general . . . do you still feel that way?

Ray, you had me at hello!

I notice a couple people on my IGNORE list have posted in the midst of my downloading of scanned Gareth Penn letters. I'm not going to click on the individual posts, since that would defeat the purpose of the IGNORE button, but I'm guessing that my fan club objects to the downloading of long letters, the content of which is, for the most part, irrelevant to the discussion.

I don't disagree with that, but I had to choose between two relatively negative options:

1, download just the relevant passages, and then be accused of taking things out of context; or

2, download the entire letters, and thus post a lot of extraneous material.

I obviously chose Option 2, since my fan club is now questioning everything I do and am, including my membership in Mensa (which has been lapsed for almost 22 years).

Here's the thing: if you're willing to acknowledge Gareth Penn's existence (and coming onto this thread is a big step in that direction), and Gareth has already made several comments about me on his blog . . . how DID we end up writing to each other, if it wasn't a result of our mutual Mensa membership? We've lived on opposite coasts all our lives, and we're ten years apart chronologically. I don't see why, if you were trying to cast doubt on my credibility, that THAT'S where you'd decide to go.

Ray Grant wrote:

I notice a couple people on my IGNORE list have posted in the midst of my downloading of scanned Gareth Penn letters. I'm not going to click on the individual posts, since that would defeat the purpose of the IGNORE button, but I'm guessing that my fan club objects to the downloading of long letters, the content of which is, for the most part, irrelevant to the discussion.

I don't disagree with that, but I had to choose between two relatively negative options:

1, download just the relevant passages, and then be accused of taking things out of context; or

2, download the entire letters, and thus post a lot of extraneous material.

I obviously chose Option 2, since my fan club is now questioning everything I do and am, including my membership in Mensa (which has been lapsed for almost 22 years).

Here's the thing: if you're willing to acknowledge Gareth Penn's existence (and coming onto this thread is a big step in that direction), and Gareth has already made several comments about me on his blog . . . how DID we end up writing to each other, if it wasn't a result of our mutual Mensa membership? We've lived on opposite coasts all our lives, and we're ten years apart chronologically. I don't see why, if you were trying to cast doubt on my credibility, that THAT'S where you'd decide to go.

Mr Grant

I find your contributions VERY interesting and I thank you for sharing so generously of your information.

Concening people who cast doubt on the information you provide, let it go, just post whatever you feel comfertable with, we are a lot of people who read it all with great interest, myself included even though I have another POI.

You don´t have to use time and energy responding to posts that just want to cast doubt on your statements.

Looking forward to read more

All IMHO...

TF

I agree Foreigner. Ray, just share what you would like to share, and state your ideas. Dont worry about trying to please people that dont buy what you are saying. I personally dont think Penn was involved in anyway with the Zodiac crime, and I too have my own POI. But I do like to hear what others have to say, and what their opinions are.

Can anyone confirm that the pages from the Second Power that appear on Opord are actually from Penn's book, they certainly appear to be. Apart from Times 17 and his writings for the Ecrophiser I feel it is important not to overlook TSP which I had done before merely glancing at it. A few people have commented about the content (A comment about Incest had me wondering) so I have been reading nearly all that I can digest of the pages that have been put up.

There are well over twenty odd pages which are quite frankly appalling in there usage of mostly overtly sexual terms , to me it is like a game of word association. Pages 33,34 (one of the worst)35,36,38(incest appears)40,43,44 and onwards. I was going to give a sample of the words he uses but I actually can't bring myself to do so, you will see for yourself.

Worth noting in particular are that he uses both the confession letter and Berta's Obituary to illicit some of these words. CJB's death has never been proven to be the work of the Zodiac let alone that her killer was actually the person that wrote the confession letter and for him to take words from Berta's Obituary when he has no idea who wrote it (it could have been a close friend of Berta's that did so) to me no longer leaves me wondering about where he came up with the name Michael O'Hare. He uses what he wants and to hell with it. On page 53 he states wrongly the attack that Cecilia Shepard had to endure. At the start in the Errata pages he tells of Jake Wark informing him that Cecilia was not attacked in this manner. Opord even have the Autopsy pages for Shepard on there. Regardless of what Wark told him he puts it in print again. Disgraceful.

It is quite shocking to read this The Second Power as it makes Penn look like a disturbed and perverted individual, certainly someone that is mentally unstable. The whole thing is a character assassination of MOH and his parents. It is actually vile and I'm appalled at the content. TSP is cruel, taunting and vindictive nothing short of a vendetta against MOH, completely lacking in fact (he choses to ignore fact over name calling) and insane. I don't think this has anything to do with the Zodiac, it is clear he is out to get MOH, he has no morals, dignity or sense of shame.

After reading TSP today I personally wonder if MOH is even aware of it's existence, I cannot comprehend anyone not taking legal action over those pages.

Ray Grant: Your letters are fabulous stuff -- a real motherlode of correspondence with a man who was once called the brilliantly sinister yin to Graysmith's naively simplistic yang. It's just astonishing to learn all this, especially at such a late date in the history of Penn and this case. Penn openly predicting and discussing Mike O'Hare's suicide. Unbelievable!

Rand asked for sales numbers on Penn's book -- there's simply no way to know that unless you ask Gareth himself. Every true Zodiac aficionado I've ever encountered has read the books. And every time I've looked for it on Ebay, it's been listed in the hundreds of dollars. I once saw a copy go for over $400.00. Lo and behold, there's one on Ebay now listed at just under $200.00

http://cgi.ebay.com/TIMES-17-ZODIAC-MURDERS-CALIFORNIA-AND-MASSACHUSETTS-/370377480522?cmd=ViewItem&pt=US_Nonfiction_Book&hash=item563c37d94a

Finally

Solar Pons wrote:

Can anyone confirm that the pages from The Second Power that appear on Opord are actually from Penn's book...

Yes, they are. I have a complete copy of it, but you can't find The Second Power for sale like you can Times 17.

Solar Pons wrote:

There are well over twenty odd pages which are quite frankly appalling in there usage of mostly overtly sexual terms...It is quite shocking to read The Second Power as it makes Penn look like a disturbed and perverted individual, certainly someone that is mentally unstable. The whole thing is a character assassination of Mike O'Hare and his parents. It is actually vile and I'm appalled at the content. The Second Power is cruel, taunting and vindictive nothing short of a vendetta against MOH, completely lacking in fact (he choses to ignore fact over name calling) and insane. I don't think this has anything to do with the Zodiac, it is clear he is out to get MOH, he has no morals, dignity or sense of shame. After reading TSP today I personally wonder if MOH is even aware of it's existence, I cannot comprehend anyone not taking legal action over those pages.

I took the liberty of highlighting your salient comments about Penn's second, lesser known book The Second Power. It is indeed vile and I'm glad you're reading it. You are seeing the Dark Lord of the Zodiac Case in action. As I said earlier, no one outside the killer himself has been a more persistently menacing presence in this case than Gareth Penn. The negative energy he has expended over this case is just beyond belief. Now all these letters to Ray Grant come out, with Penn openly predicting Mike O'Hare's suicide!

I'm picking my jaw up off the floor with every revelation.

Mike Martin would go completely berserk if he were allowed up into my attic. My house came with lidded storage compartments against the attic back wall, and I used the bottom one (fittingly) to store all my Zodiac-related material. I probably haven't rummaged in it in 15 years. There are boxes with each edition of my book, boxes with correspondence from police agencies, a box of Gareth Penn letters (I did pick through those in the last day or so), boxes with photographs I had taken of various Zodiac sites two decades ago (most of my research has been done by remote control, since I've only personally visited the sites in Boston), and much more.

The most intriguing thing I saw up there was a very large bulky envelope, big enough to contain one of my books and then some, mailed in December 1990 to me, and coming from . . . The Harvard Law School.

In any case, I thought the board might find a scan of the artifact that started my own activity in the case interesting. Here it is:





My scanner won't show the complete page for the article itself, probably because the adjoining page is overlapping the edge of the aperture and I'm unwilling, because of the relative rarity of the magazine, to bend it back to fit under the lid. The article itself, the only one he was ever allowed to put in the national magazine, is primordial Gareth Penn; it was sanitized to protect Mensa from possible legal reprisals, but in this case Gareth's hinting actually made the article more effective. He says, in Times 17, that he received more than 500 requests for the 16-page follow-up article (which I also still have); that would have been better than 1% of the entire American Mensa membership at the time.

Hey . . . this means I WAS in Mensa, doesn't it?

Ray

Try loading it again as a 640, not an 800.

AK--Is that better?

Should I go back and do the same thing with the letters?

A little. Do you have the other part?

By the way...did you ever find out what the "Zodiac" message and code was on the Harvard bathroom wall?

Penn claimed total ignorance of this when I asked him about it.

AK--

Do I have the other part of what? The article? I'm sure I could scan the whole thing if people want to see it. What I could probably do is just copy it so I have a flat sheet and then scan it that way.

The magazine covers look great on my computer, maybe a bit smaller after the downsizing.

Is there a link to the bathroom wall message? I'll take a look at it if there is. I hate to sound like Gareth, but I'd never heard of it either until now.

http://jamesobrien.cc/index.php?page=stories&category=BostonNOW-col-_Unsolved_Mysteries&display=99

Penn is mentioned in the article.

Here is the part about the message:

A Harvard Zodiac cipher?
In 1990, the Beverly
Times reported police found
a Zodiac-style circleand-
cross symbol and a
Zodiac-style cipher on a
Harvard bathroom wall in
1983, predicting Webster's
body would be found near
Peabody or Lynn.

Police reportedly searched
Lynn and Peabody but found
nothing. Webster remained
undiscovered until her
skeleton emerged two towns
north of Peabody in the soil
of Hamilton.

Since we are talking about Penn, heres the link to his writings for the Ecphorizer.
http://www.ecphorizer.com/EPS/site_author_search.php?search=Gareth+Penn

Moderators:

With 25 pages and nearly 4,500 views, would it be possible to make the Gareth Penn/Mike O'Hare its own thread, and move the subheadings "Gareth Penn" and "Michael O'Hare" into it?

That way, posting documents, pictures, and other material would be easier and it would stay more organized.

It might even be innovative to move less popular POIs (like Rick Marshall and Jack Tarrance) into the "All Other POI" thread. To my knowledge, it was Tom Voigt -- not the authorities -- who made a lot of these people suspects.

MikeM wrote:

It might even be innovative to move less popular POIs (like Rick Marshall and Jack Tarrance) into the "All Other POI" thread. To my knowledge, it was Tom Voigt -- not the authorities -- who made a lot of these people suspects.

Jack Tarrance? Now that's funny. Wonder what Tom would have to say about that one?

And pretty sure Marshall was a suspect long before Tom entered the picture.