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 Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents

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morf13
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PostSubject: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Wed May 11, 2011 12:48 pm

I sent out about 10 requests today for FBI files on letters, and on Cheri Jo Bates & Rick Marshall. Some of these are new requests, and some of these are re-requests.

Does anybody have any special requests for FBI files regarding the Zodiac case, such as previously unreleased letters, or suspects/victims in the case? (The FBI will NOT release info on people unless they are proven to be dead)
If anyone wants me to request anything, please post it here and let me know. Please provide any info you have to make the requests, such as names, dates, and any other specific info. I will update these threads as I get responses from the FBI on my requests.

I also had wanted to obtain a report on Kathleen Johns, but I could not find a SS# death listing, or obituary to show proof she is deceased.
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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Wed May 11, 2011 1:16 pm

Seems that the Dept of Justice posts responses to requests for Zodiac material. Here is one example:

"Exemption 7(A): The court determines that the FBI properly asserted Exemption 7(A) to withhold the requested latent fingerprint records. As an initial matter, the court notes that "[t]he parties agree that the latent fingerprints were compiled for 'law enforcement purposes.'" The court concludes that, based on the FBI's declaration as well as the attached exhibits consisting of correspondence from local law enforcement authorities, "the Zodiac case investigation is ongoing, and Plaintiff has presented no admissible evidence that the investigation has been completed or is inactive." Furthermore, the court finds that the FBI's "declaration contains a 'general showing' that disclosure of the fingerprints could interfere with local law enforcement agencies' ongoing investigations of the Zodiac case" because release of the records could result in notification of the subject and allow him to evade capture by law enforcement authorities."


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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Thu May 12, 2011 12:08 am

I don't know if the contents of the above response is just canned legalese jargon, but if it is not, then taken at it's face, it would seem to imply that there is a suspect, still living, and LE knows who he is but perhaps have only circumstantial case built against him at this time?
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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Fri May 27, 2011 12:36 pm

Today, I received two different, previously unreleased, questioned documents in the Zodiac case. They are the 10/12/70 postcard beginning with "THE ZODIAC IS GOING TO", and the other is the "EQUINOX 3:33" Letter. I will post them both today in the unconfirmed letters section. The 10/12/70 postcard is not the clearest, nor the easiest to read, but the Equinox 3:33 one is very interesting in my opinion, and contains some possible clues to Zodiac's ID. I personally think it is a legitimate Zodiac letter, and it is very clear & easy to read.
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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Fri May 27, 2011 3:28 pm

Morf, how about trying to get your hands on this supposed 'DMV letter'? Tom's taking forever to reveal it.
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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Fri May 27, 2011 3:32 pm

Nachtsider wrote:
Morf, how about trying to get your hands on this supposed 'DMV letter'? Tom's taking forever to reveal it.

I requested it and it was turned down. I appealed it like I did with these letters, so let's see, maybe they will now release it.
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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Fri May 27, 2011 7:48 pm

The 10/12/70 can be looked at both ways.Since the 10/5/70 was in the media at least the 'backside,'that was enough to 'inspire' the 10/12/70 by a hand other than Z.

There was attention to detail in other missives not found in this 'new' missive.The 3/22/71 card had hand brushed lettering and writing that was enough for Morrell to indicate that it was 'not inconsistant' with Z's known writing.There was a single stamp.
The 10/5/70 had a single stamp 'In the Beginning God...'that was to be the same unusual for Z stamp that was placed on the 10/27/70 and had hand cut thin strips of red paper to form the glued on 'bloody cross.'

The card 10/27/70 has brushed on lettering and paste ups with a single stamp.[i]Paul "Averly"
is on the Halloween and Pines card.

The 10/12/70 missive just has paste ups-not brush lettering and two stamps as if in imitation of Z.Two stamps never before seen on canonical Z missives,but of course he was not incapable of changing anything and stamps were no different.

Since glue formulas are different among manufacturers all four glue residue traces should be tested.Of course, the 10/5/70 has disappeared (?) I think-so all three. DNA and touch DNA -stamps,etc.,should be used on any surviving missives in this grouping.
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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:28 am

Going to take a shot at obtaining some more questioned documents/letters in the Zodiac case that may be in the posession of the FBI. I just want to see if anybody has any suggestions, ideas, or requests.

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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:23 pm

Why does the current Zodiac case file they publish end at, what is it, 1980 something? Can we get anything that's come up since?
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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:32 pm

bentley wrote:
Why does the current Zodiac case file they publish end at, what is it, 1980 something? Can we get anything that's come up since?

It is possible. But the problem is, your FNI requests have to be as specific as possible, so you would need some basic info in order to do a request

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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:03 pm

Morf,

What was the response regarding the alleged DMV letter? It's interesting that they have readily send you some items but not others. I suppose it could indicate a number of different possibilities:

a. It doesn't exist
b. We don't have enough information to describe it properly
c. It exists but it's not part of the FBI files
d. It's considered as possible case evidence and they don't want you to have it
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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:42 pm

entropy wrote:
Morf,

What was the response regarding the alleged DMV letter? It's interesting that they have readily send you some items but not others. I suppose it could indicate a number of different possibilities:

a. It doesn't exist
b. We don't have enough information to describe it properly
c. It exists but it's not part of the FBI files
d. It's considered as possible case evidence and they don't want you to have it

I dont remember the exact reason(s) for the denial. They word things in different ways depending on their reasons ("cant find it"..."part of an open investigation"...etc) I sure would like to see the DMV letetr if it exists. The requests you send have to have as much info to narrow down the details, time frame ,etc. If its too generic, you will get a flat out denial.

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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:37 pm

How about Bujok and his allegedly being investigated in the Zodiac case?
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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:40 pm

caresut wrote:
How about Bujok and his allegedly being investigated in the Zodiac case?

Good idea.

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PostSubject: KATHLEEN JOHNS   Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:18 pm

This may be a tough one, but if you can locate the County in which she passed away, you can get a date. That is about all the Vital Statistics Division of the county will release - they will also send you a death certificate for $8.00, which would be enough proof to the FBI.

Good luck
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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:09 pm

Found something of great interest here. Take a look at the following FBI file. It is part of a 'catalog' of possible Zodiac letters that the FBI has reviewed. It is a bit hard to read, but look closely at the 4th item down that I highlighted:



The memo clearly states that in this collection of letters, there was one postmarked 20, April, 1969 That would be four months to the day after the LHR murders. And more importantly, that would be well before the first Zodiac letters that we know of from August 1969. That means that Z may have written an early letter that we have never seen. affraid All of the rest of the catalog letters are all ones we already know about. Also of importance, this shows that Z may have mailed letters on anniversaries of his murders...the way he did by sending the Belli letter on 12/20/69, and the way he possibly did exactly 30 days after the Bates murder, and 6 months to the day after. I am definitely going to ask for this letter, but I am concerned that if it never saw the light of day yet, there may be a reason. They may not want to release it. I wonder if Z wrote to the Vallejo Times Herald or to the cops themselves, and they kept it quiet for some reason, so he then decided the next time around, to write to bigger papers like the Chronicle?

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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:20 pm

morf13 wrote:
Found something of great interest here. Take a look at the following FBI file. It is part of a 'catalog' of possible Zodiac letters that the FBI has reviewed. It is a bit hard to read, but look closely at the 4th item down that I highlighted:



The memo clearly states that in this collection of letters, there was one postmarked 20, April, 1969 That would be four months to the day after the LHR murders. And more importantly, that would be well before the first Zodiac letters that we know of from August 1969. That means that Z may have written an early letter that we have never seen. affraid All of the rest of the catalog letters are all ones we already know about. Also of importance, this shows that Z may have mailed letters on anniversaries of his murders...the way he did by sending the Belli letter on 12/20/69, and the way he possibly did exactly 30 days after the Bates murder, and 6 months to the day after. I am definitely going to ask for this letter, but I am concerned that if it never saw the light of day yet, there may be a reason. They may not want to release it. I wonder if Z wrote to the Vallejo Times Herald or to the cops themselves, and they kept it quiet for some reason, so he then decided the next time around, to write to bigger papers like the Chronicle?

I want to add the next page of this memo too. It states that all of the samples show a wide range of variation and writing speed, and that for this reason, the results or inconclusive. But it goes on to say that 'consistent charactersitics' were noted which indicates that one person may have prepared all of the letters, INCLUDING THE RIVERSIDE LETTERS.

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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:21 pm

I would say that is a misprint. Should have typed 1970 instead of 1969. It is the
"My name is..." letter looks like to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:00 am

caresut wrote:
I would say that is a misprint. Should have typed 1970 instead of 1969. It is the
"My name is..." letter looks like to me.

Okay good eye. Crazy to think even the FBI make mistakes

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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:02 pm

Agree with caresut... it appears to be misdated. I'm honestly surprised how many errors and assumptions are contained in the FBI files.

Q95 from February 14, 1974 is the SLA letter. Has anyone ever seen the envelope that contained this? Tom's site indicates that the postmark was unknown and I don't see any indication of where this was sent from much less a picture of the envelope. If not, this would be really interesting to get especially since it was apparently sent by SFPD to the FBI in this batch along with all of the "confirmed" Zodiac letters. That would seem to indicate that SFPD considered this at least a worthy questionable document. The truTV crime library has this to say about the SLA letter:

After examination, the FBI Laboratory reported that, while some characteristics of the "Badlands" and "Count Marco" letters were inconsistent with the writing of the confirmed Zodiac letters, "these inconsistencies are not sufficient to eliminate the writer of the Zodiac letters" as the author of the late 1974 letters. The Laboratory went on to state that "similarities were noted which would indicate that [these letters] were probably prepared by the writer of the Zodiac letters".

I'd be curious to see if this letter was sent from the same 940 zip code (San Mateo County) as the Exorcist letter two weeks prior.


Last edited by entropy on Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Morf13...   Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:02 pm

This indeed is great news.

'The submitted evidence is photographed and is enclosed herewith.'

Maybe just asking for transfer of the full document will already helps.

QT
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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:58 pm

Entrophy,
The SLA note and envelope has been in my book (5.00$!) for years. We were the first to publish it. It was given to me by Dave Peterson a police reporter and writer for the Vallejo Times Herald. He was with the Z case since the so called 'first' Z murders 12.20.68. I say so called as he "began" as Z wrote his CA killings with a theme of 'slaves in paradise.' This was an old CM term-teaching and was even in the LA Times December 1969 as from Susan Atkins herself. The only difference with Z and CM was that she said those 'that were killed would be CM's slaves in the afterlife.' As I have said if this 'slaves in the afterlife' was connected to any pop suspect it would be heralded all over the place LOL
He learned this teaching at a house ("Spiral Stair case") that was used for occult gatherings. He was very ecclectic.



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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:14 pm

entropy wrote:
Agree with caresut... it appears to be misdated. I'm honestly surprised how many errors and assumptions are contained in the FBI files.

Q95 from February 14, 1974 is the SLA letter. Has anyone ever seen the envelope that contained this? Tom's site indicates that the postmark was unknown and I don't see any indication of where this was sent from other much less a picture of the envelope. If not, this would be really interesting to get especially since it was apparently sent by SFPD to the FBI in this batch along with all of the "confirmed" Zodiac letters. That would seem to indicate that SFPD considered this at least a worthy questionable document. The truTV crime library has this to say about the SLA letter:

After examination, the FBI Laboratory reported that, while some characteristics of the "Badlands" and "Count Marco" letters were inconsistent with the writing of the confirmed Zodiac letters, "these inconsistencies are not sufficient to eliminate the writer of the Zodiac letters" as the author of the late 1974 letters. The Laboratory went on to state that "similarities were noted which would indicate that [these letters] were probably prepared by the writer of the Zodiac letters".

I'd be curious to see if this letter was sent from the same 940 zip code (San Mateo County) as the Exorcist letter two weeks prior.

http://www.zodiackiller.com/SLAEnvelope.html

Apparently no postmark.

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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:16 pm

Thanks "bruce" and AK. I'm not sure how I missed that. That's odd isn't it? Why no postmark? Wouldn't it have had to be postmarked when it was delivered unless Z decided to deliver it himself to the Chronicle? It's a shame because the post office was utilizing zip codes by this time in 1974 as Z reminded us of himself on the Exorcist letter envelope. It would be nice to know where it was sent from. I've always thought the handwriting on the SLA card (and envelope) look awfully good and freely written. Unfortunately, there's not a lot to go on to determine the authenticity of this card.

Oh and bruce, I have your book and have never ruled out a possible Manson family connection. I think I paid more than $5.00 for it though. Mad
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PostSubject: Re: Taking requests for Questioned Zodiac documents   Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:58 pm

E,
According to the list or SFPD Lab #11 from GS it is postmarked 2/14/74,which would make sense due to the "a friend."It was mentioned in some media articles.

Email me via my site..thanks.

Note: in the FBI files there was a postmark 2/14/74 from San Rafael. The 7/8/74 Red Phantom came from San Rafael too. This PM on the sla envelope which contained the sla message card seems very faded or did not come through in certain generational copies? I credit this to Jake Wark.

Z had a penchant for anniverseries (12/20/69;3/22/71) and mentions 'Fourth of July' and "Christmass"(British usuage -sp.) as holiday dates,etc .,just as do many occultists.This we see using Valentine's Day to send a missive.
Zodiac liked monikers and abbreviations,symbols,this we know. Killer;murderer,The Zodiac; rh,Z;Guess; Red Phantom RP;A citizen;and as per our discussion "a friend."
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