Otis Chandler

Well.....in a bizarre twist of fate, I Have discovered some interesting new information that may warrant a MUCH further look.

I recently purchased the Life Magazine Special Issue: The Most Notorious Crimes in American History. ( How Z was not included was surprising to me!)

One of the included crimes was, of course, " The Black Dahlia Murder" , which as we all know, has been loosely linked to the Zodiac Crimes by a multitude
of "Armchair Researchers".

Life Magazine ended the Black Dahlia Murder segment with a list of "official" suspects which surprisingly recounted that "Over the years the list of suspects has included such luminaries as Norman Chandler, a Publisher of the Los Angeles Times; Woody Guthrie, The famous folksinger, who once wrote sexually explicit letters to some California women he knew; and Orsen Welles, thanks to a theory forwarded by a former neighbor of the Shorts in Medford, who wrote a book about the case in 1999."

I had been focusing on two dates, Oct 30, 1966 and Oct 11, 1969, and at the presence of an entirely different POI who, those of you who know the "unsaid name", know that "Mr. X" was publicly confirmed as having been at Riverside International Speedway in '66 and PH in 1969, ( As well as Napa on July 04/68 & at property neighboring The Borges Ranch near LHR....but I digress...) when I discoverd that Otis N. Chandler had also been in Riverside on Oct 30th 1966 AND in Presidio Heights on October 11, 1969 as a guest of .......none other than " Mr. X".

This forced me to look at Mr. Chandler as a prospective POI( having the opportunity) for potential "Z" crimes.


Well, lo and behold, Mr. Chandler( Norman Chandler's FAVORITE son ) has many of the assumed attributes of "Z" suspects;

1) Military( or ATTEMPTED Military service...he was denied due to his "increasing girth/size making him incapable of occupying a cockpit) Service
2) Confirmed positive , public ID at 2 known or suspected Zodiac murders.
3) An "insatiable appetite for killing" as evidenced by many autobiographical statements and confirmed " Most Dangerous Game Hunts", one which resulted in serious injury in 1965 in Africa (there were 5!!) that left him with "slight paralysis and a shuffling lope which changed his 6'1", 210 Lb frame drastically for several years resulting in denied continued military reserve service".
4) He was a Publisher, Editor, and Newsman, who in 1966-70, was competing for the Bay Area market as The SF Times, against The SF Chronicle , amongst others, and was based in SF from as early as 1967 until the abandonment of the SF Times in the mid 70's.
5) Sociopathic Tendencies tend to run in familial lines, generally on the Paternal side, and his father, Norman Chandler I, was publicly suspected on being the "Black Dahlia Murderer" and " enjoyed a special relationship with his son Otis that insulated him as Editor In Cheif of the LA Times and successor as Managing Director of The Times, despite the vehement objection of 60+ family members/owners/voting shareholders.

From there , it just got weirder!!!

I believe this potential POI requires some serious investigation in respect to our mutual quest.....justice for the victims of Z!

Read some of this......

His Obituary....20 Pages , but WELL worth the read!!

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-otislong28feb28,0,89729.story?page=1&coll=la-home-local

more yet.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otis_Chandler

OMG!!!! Page three of the link to the body of " Otis Chandler:Privileged Son", speaks of his" legendary temper".
" When criticized, his temper would simmer before suddenly flaring; his capacity for revenge could be boundless" said lifelong friend Robert "Bob" Emmet.


Holy f@$kin shit!!!!!!!


http://www.amazon.com/Privileged-Son-Chandler-L-Dynasty/dp/0306811618#reader_0306811618

It should be relatively easy to get printed writing samples of this man to compare to Z

Some of the Black Dahlia letters (which may be from the killer or may be fake) used a style later used by Zodiac. Compare.





Some have speculated if the Black Dahlia killer could have become Zodiac. Both Jack Tarrance and Dr. Hodel have been accused by their sons of being both, with little hard evidence. And the ages don't really work - it creates either a very young Dahlia killer and/or a very old Zodiac. Also, the method of killing is totally different. There are some similarities in the communications, as seen above, but IMO this is probably Zodiac being influenced by Dahlia killer, just as I think he was by Jack the Ripper and "FP" (Fair Play), the NY Mad Bomber.

Some interesting things about this fellow. He does not look like any of the Z sketches. I don't see the interest in codes or bombs. But nothing to really tag him as a killer yet IMO. He was a racing fan in Riverside and a hunter. So are thousands of other guys. Though every investigation has to start somewhere.

And to be clear, this board is NOT accusing him of any crime, there is no direct evidence to suggest he did any crime, but posters can explore theories.

Best evidence I have seen is that the Black Dahlia killer could have been this guy, Jack Anderson Wilson. It appears he can be placed around Cleveland for the Torso murders, Chicago for the Lipstick killing and LA for the Dahlia murder. But who knows, it is a true mystery, lots of suspects but little evidence.

IBF = " when I discoverd that Otis N. Chandler had also been in Riverside on Oct 30th 1966 AND in Presidio Heights on October 11, 1969 as a guest of .......none other than " Mr. X"."

Can I ask how you confirmed this? You can PM me if needed, or do it in a post as long as privacy and sources are protected.

See, unless we want to think about a hypothetical "Millionaire Killers Club", or at least two men as Zodiac, if OC was with Mr. X that day - and night - that tends to clear both of them in my mind.

morf13 wrote:

It should be relatively easy to get printed writing samples of this man to compare to Z

The guy was 42 years old in 1969, 6'3" tall, had blonde hair and no criminal background.

I don't think there is much chance this man is a serious suspect either, but sarcasm doesn't help.

Critical comments are good. Pointing out flaws.

But lets take it easy on the sarcasm, leave that to the other boards.

Point taken. I deleted the snarky stuff.

Pretty hilarious the shots some people have taken considering it is evident to me that no one even glanced through the 165 pages of Fortunate Son, where Chandler's past is explored in depth including comments about his explosive temper, capacity for revenge and his musings about The Most Dangerous Game.

Then there is his connections to The Editors and columnists of several rival newspapers (think Marco Spinelli, Herb Caen and Paul Avery) plus the fact most of these observances were by his surfing buddy (who was long-haired, scruffy and "Hippyesque" in 1969) who happens to be Robert Emmit..... spelled exactly as the possible cipher solution.

Thirdly, if Rand and others had even bothered to take the blinders off in respect to ANYONE but their own POI ( as I did with Chandler) they would know the answers to their own questions but allow me to expand.

Chandler was 6'1" or 6'2", depending on which source you use. He was Barrel Chested and worked out three times a day but in 1969 his weight ballooned to 230 + lbs which co-incided with his convalescence from injuries sustained in a Safari accident in Africa several years earlier. This led to a severe lope or shuffle, weight gain and his expulsion from active military service in the National Guard as a Pilot as he no longer fit in the cockpit.

His hair was Blond in the late 50's and early 60's when he surfed full time and likely bleached his hair with the rest of California Beach Boy wannabe's.

In this picture from the early 70's , one can clearly see his hair is sandy brown to brown and a little longer and "greasier" looking.

He wrote missives directly to the Editors of his papers rather than through the Publisher's office which he controlled until the late 80's.

Finally, he was at a local car event, the Knob Hill Mille during the day of Oct 11, 1969 which was sponsored by Mr.X personally and one of his corporate entities.

I am NOT alleging he stayed at Mr. X's house or was with him in the evening of Oct 11th, 1969 when Mr. X claims he was overseas in the UK, a claim he can not support with passport or other customs/immigration documentation( such as his visa to England).

I tend to support the Vidoque Society and lead FBI profiler (who Mike R. quotes on his website) in the belief that Z WAS not a career criminal and was NOT a sexual sadist but rather a power assertive killer. A Killer who had excess free time, money to overpost EVERY letter he sent, money and education to enjoy Operettas to the point where he could quote them from memory.

Someone like Chandler or Mr. X who owned property in neighboring the Borges Ranch, Napa Valley, Presidio Heights, Lake Tahoe and Los Angeles not to mention business interests in Vallejo( On Admiral Callahan near the Fairgrounds), Riverside, Napa, Sonoma, Walnut Creek, Sacramento and Sacramento.

Funny that trained profilers with proven past records are ridiculed for the ridiculous theory(IMHO) that Z was a career criminal like Houghton, Kaczinski, etc, etc.

These people were most certainly the first suspects examined and cleared.

How is it that suspects like these were stupid enough to get caught multiple times from crimes as themselves, yet got away with 4-5 murders, 3 ciphers and 20+ letters without so much as a hint??!! Please.

Finally, find me one LE officer or Profiler who would EXCLUDE anyone strictly on socioeconomic status.

Jack The Ripper( likely Doctor or Royalty), O.J. Simpson ( Rich and Prominent, celebrity even), John Wilkes Booth ( Actor, socialite, celebrity), Patty Hearst, any of the Getty clan....drugs, suicides, kidnappings, etc), Chester Gillette ( As in the razor heir/ murderer who 1952's "A Place In The Sun" was written about), Ann Woodward( killing her husband who beat her mecilessly), Lana Turner ( Killing mobster Johhny Stompanato), Leopold and Loeb ( child prodigies and wealthy geniuses from Ivy League families), Dr. Sam Sheppard,Dr. Jeffrey Robert MacDonald ( Doctor, War Hero, Green Beret and Killer!), Ted Bundy ( Lawyer & Law School honor student) Robert Blake ( Actor/Celebrity), Phillip Markoff ( Doctor in residency and "Craigslist Killer" ..........need I go on?

Another pic of Chandler with Walter Cronkite.

He has darker hair and is standing next to Cronkite and seems to be 2.5- 3 inches taller than Walter......

I didn't know Walter was 6 Feet plus......LOL!

Guess Chandler may be closer to other estimates of 6'1 to 6'2.

He was 42 in 1969, which if the only eyewitness testimony to Stine's murder is to be be believed, was close enough to the 35-45 estimate and he was certainly within the weight description, had the shuffle from partial paralysis and bears a striking resemblance to both the "Napa Composite" and the "SF Composite" without the glasses...which may have been Stine's anyway?

The Guy was eccentric, fits the description physically ( somewhat), self admittedly had no friends which led to his solo pursuits...track and field, skiing, surfing, racing cars, golf , hunting and weightlifting.

Solo pursuits tend to be the hallmark of the sociopath/psychopath and power assertive killer as they tend to prefer to be alone in their greatness yet they are able to turn on the charm in public and put on a good show.

As a footnote I will add that all avenues with respect to ANY POI need to be examined as the fact remains, 40 years later there has been no closure and, more importantly, no justice for the victims of these crimes.

It is better to remain silent and seem a fool than to speak and remove all doubt" Abraham Lincoln

I think its intresting In Bonus Fides.
Haven´t got the time to read it all yet but I will.

Good points IBF.

We are interested, but for those not interested enough or with the time, you might want to give us the highlights of the 160 page book.

What did this guy say about "The Most Dangerous Game"?

He was a hunter, ok, interesting. Is there any history of violence?

Also you said this: "How is it that suspects like these were stupid enough to not get caught multiple times as themselves yet got away with 4-5 murders, 3 ciphers and 20+ letters without so much as a hint??!! Please."

Not sure what your point is here, but Kaczynski was never caught multiple times. The FBI had a 25,000 name suspect list for the Unabomber and his name was not on it. They never heard of him until his brother turned him in.

With Kaczynski, Bruce Davis or Troy Houghton, you at least have suspects who have a demonstrated capacity for violence and criminal conduct. Can you show the same for Chandler? With Kaczynski and Davis you have known capacity to murder a human being. Chandler? With Houghton, Kaczynski and Gaikowski you have anti-society views and an interest in codes. Chandler? Mr. X?

The point is there is different criteria one can pick in looking at a suspect.

I am interested in reading more about this man. But I don't think you can blame people for having an initial skeptical attitude. This man - like Mr. X - apparently has no history of violence, criminal behavior or expertise in codes or bombs. OC was 42 in 1969, 6' 3", blonde hair. None of those things completely rule him out, but they don't make a strong fit. Also, are you saying OC and Mr. X may have worked together?

You do have a valid point that education and money should not exclude someone from being a suspect. And every angle should be investigated.

IBF, first of all..I like your Avatar & Welcome Back!! I always enjoy the way you think an present your case. I did just glance at this and that's why I have not replied YET. I plan on taking the time to read an digest this post in the
next day or two. I did not want to comment at just a glance, I never believe that is fair of me or anyone else. I say Kudos for keeping an open mind an when you saw this, or it jumped out at you...you are taking your time to share it all with us. For those that don't believe that the Z is someone we already looked at, well they should look at an appreciate all new info like this. Also, everyone with a POI, should still keep an open mind on some of the others. I also do feel that people can have inter anger, violence in them...that is not shown & hidden from family & friends....an it comes out else where. We have all read stories like that in the paper. A crazy guy holds his own daughter prisoner for years in the down stairs
apt. and his wife or the community never suspected. Or sometimes the family is privy to another family members crzy side, but it is well hidden in the community. So, what I'm saying is I'm very open minded in hearing more, so yes do tell.
The racing connection would allow travel to the different tracks. (Did he have or race a car? Was he involved in any Sports Car Clubs... just curious)
Also I keep racking my brain... someone was talking about an Otis in chat or a post a month or two ago.

AK Wilks wrote:

With Kaczynski, Bruce Davis or Troy Houghton, you at least have suspects who have a demonstrated capacity for violence and criminal conduct. Can you show the same for Chandler? With Kaczynski and Davis you have known capacity to murder a human being. Chandler? With Houghton, Kaczynski and Gaikowski you have anti-society views and an interest in codes. Chandler? Mr. X?

Agreed, AK. To add to this, with Troy Houghton, you have someone who shot out the tires of a car with the woman still in it (Z: "I think I'll shoot out the tires of a schoolbus"). He then holds her at gunpoint until the cops arrive. This event occurred 4 years earlier to the day of LHR. You also have someone who was arrested at 14 for arson, and then arrested a dozen other times for various things, including tampering with cars. You also have someone who had a grudge against the SF press for calling him a sex offender.

With Ray H, you have someone who claimed to be an assassin for the MM - an anti-social group with a logo that looks like this:



But I'm blinded by all this, you say. After all, Chandler had a temper and knew Robert Emmit Why do you think that "Emmit the hippie" is any more compelling of a solution to the My Name Is cipher than the dozens of others out there? I have one that uses the characters as is, just rearranges them; and it starts AKA (makes sense for a lead in that goes My Name Is --) Anyhow. Carry on.

Bump* I'm going to bump my thread here, and totally ignore what Rand just wrote. The reason, This this a Thread for IBF to tell his storey, and honestly I am interested. I feel the above post by Rand was uncalled for. (Rand, you are acting as what is called a thread killer........some good posters gave up posting their thoughts n info becuz of thread killers) You have been asked in the past by Morf, well now Zam Is tweaked. I don't feel you are playin fair. We gave you, your own thread, pretty nice if you ask me. SO please don't be a thread killer in the future....GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR so not fair. Your comparison was nothing like AK's he did it in a short nice post, but still asked questions n for more information. You took it once again OFF topic..and back to your POI. Jes telling ya.....this is way some peeps don't care for peeps that keep pushing their POI, they are closed minded on only one thing.

OK, I don't need to vent too often, but did this time. Please IBF continue. Not often we get a new possible suspect to look at. Pls know that some of us are interested. And please just ignore the ones that are not.

Zamantha wrote:

IBF, first of all..I like your Avatar & Welcome Back!! I always enjoy the way you think an present your case. I did just glance at this and that's why I have not replied YET. I plan on taking the time to read an digest this post in the
next day or two. I did not want to comment at just a glance, I never believe that is fair of me or anyone else. I say Kudos for keeping an open mind an when you saw this, or it jumped out at you...you are taking your time to share it all with us. For those that don't believe that the Z is someone we already looked at, well they should look at an appreciate all new info like this. Also, everyone with a POI, should still keep an open mind on some of the others. I also do feel that people can have inter anger, violence in them...that is not shown & hidden from family & friends....an it comes out else where. We have all read stories like that in the paper. A crazy guy holds his own daughter prisoner for years in the down stairs
apt. and his wife or the community never suspected. Or sometimes the family is privy to another family members crzy side, but it is well hidden in the community. So, what I'm saying is I'm very open minded in hearing more, so yes do tell.
The racing connection would allow travel to the different tracks. (Did he have or race a car? Was he involved in any Sports Car Clubs... just curious)
Also I keep racking my brain... someone was talking about an Otis in chat or a post a month or two ago.

Look at that dot over i on Otis autograph. Far away huh?

Ak: There is no need to have a criminal record. You know that.
We are not looking for the best suspect. We are looking for the one who did it.
Charlie Chaplin lost the Charlie Chaplin look-a-like contest. (No, I didnt do those videos.)

Right.

IBF brought up suspects who were criminals, and I made a very brief general statement about suspects with criminal backgrounds or anti-society views (TK, BD, TH, RG). Yes there are many cases of persons with no record revealed to be criminals, but IMO in the Z case, some criminal background, interest in codes and bombs and anti-society views helps. If these comparisons of a general, NON-POI specific nature are done, and done politely and briefy there may be a place for that, but it seems to lead to us getting off topic.

It is true that the father of OC has been mentioned as a suspect in the Black Dahlia murder case. And if he were the killer, that would be interesting! There is some evidence tendencies are genetic. But many famous people have been mentioned as suspects in that case, including Orson Welles! The Chandler theory is predicated on Short being a prostitute (not likley based on evidence) and her being pregnant (false), it involves Bugsy Siegel, and there just isn't the evidence to back it up.

I have no problem with educated people being killers, or rich people (you mentioned OJ, there are many more, though probably not Jack the Ripper). But Zodiac also threatened to blow up a school bus and threatened to kill police. He seemed to be at war with society. That does not fit the political views of Mr. X, who was pro-police and pro-establishment, and it doesn't seem to fit the views of Mr. Chandler either. His family business was the victim of a famous attack by anarchist bombers, and he was also anti-radical and pro-establishment. On the surface, anyway, Mr. X and OC are NOT the people you would think would be at war with society, threatening to kill police and blow up school buses. Also, there is no history of violence in deed or radicalism in thought.

IBF maybe you could tell us what OC said about "The Most Dangerous Game", and what you think may have been the relationship between Mr. X and OC. Are you exploring the possibility they may have been a team? In particular, what is your proof both were at a race that day? And if true, wouldn't Zodiac have been preparing for a very dangerous murder that day, as opposed to being at a race?

Okay, just so I understand the rules here: people with a temper, who like to hunt, who own newspapers and MIGHT have been in Riverside and PH at the time of Z's crimes are good suspects, well worth looking in to. No criminal background is needed; no connection to anything Z said, wrote, etc are required to put the person's face on a board and say: "Interesting POI regarding the Zodiac. He was at two of the crimes" (and no evidence of this is required. And if Otis was at Mr. X's house the night of Stine's murder, then he has an airtight alibi; Z took a cab to the scene.) We can smear anyone with a temper, who liked to hunt, and ran a newspaper. I read the 20-page obituary: no mention of any criminal background.

"But his father, Norman Chandler, was accused of the Black Dahlia crime!"
So was Orson Welles and lots of other people who had nothing to do with it.

"But he knew Robert Emmit!"
Show me one Zodiac reference to Robert Emmit. There is none.

"But he was a hunter who liked The Most Dangerous Game!"
So do lots of people who have nothing to do with Zodiac. Why do you think we've all heard of the Most Dangerous Game.

Otis C may have been Z, but there's nothing here to suggest that he is an interesting POI. It just boggles my mind how little it takes for people to become "interested" in a POI.

Rand you raise some good points.

I have also raised some critical questions for IBF to answer, if he decides to.

Hopefully in looking at our questions, it will help IBF determine if this is a good suspect or not.

But I also think you have to understand IBF has an interest in Mr. X, so perhaps when he saw the son of a named Dahlia suspect connected to Mr. X, it raised his eyebrows.

I like it when people raise questions on my threads or have ideas. So I think most others do as well.

But when someone is exploring a new idea, we have to be careful not to be too attacking, as that discourgages people from thinking new ideas or having a brainstorming session.

So we have to find the balance between raising critical questions, which is good, and staying polite and respectful of new ideas, even if they first seem off the wall.

I forgot to ask: why would a multi-millionaire, who liked race cars, be driving an old beatup car with 4 different tires on it?

Maybe the four tires were an intentional misdirection.

Also, I have not heard that the possible Z cars were old and beat up.