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 "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter

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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:05 pm

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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:10 pm

Thanks Deb,

I thought as much. Couldn't have seen the Chronicle sitting on something like that for over a month.

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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:30 pm

It is a very interesting letter and I used to think it was possibily real but after seeing the envelope IMO it is probably fake.

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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:26 pm

Ummm,

Like peoples thoughts on this. One of those things but now I've seen it, it seems really glaring. Check out what I think are similarities.


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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:41 pm

traveller1st wrote:
Ummm,

Like peoples thoughts on this. One of those things but now I've seen it, it seems really glaring. Check out what I think are similarities.


WOW! EXELENT work trav, absolutly EXELENT!
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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:55 pm

Good work Trav, this is exactly why something has been standing out to me about the Bleeding Knife letter, something about it looks interesting

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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:04 am

Thanks TF, and Morf

It's the looped d I find most interesting. I hadn't thought much about how odd its construction was until now. I don't think I've ever seen zodiac use looped d constructed in that way.

The implications here could be that the bleeding knife, the pines card and the halloween card could all be the work of the same person but not Z.

EDIT: Or I find a d like those and then it all swings the other way.

Nope can't find any. There a few in the stine letter that look good from a distance but up close nope. So there you go, I can't, for now, account for that odd d on the pines card within Z's stuff but there may be links to the aforementioned other contentious letters.

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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:05 am

traveller1st wrote:

The implications here could be that the bleeding knife, the pines card and the halloween card could all be the work of the same person but not Z.
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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:31 am

traveller1st wrote:
The implications here could be that the bleeding knife, the pines card and the halloween card could all be the work of the same person but not Z.

I've laid out my case for the last two of course. I still say both are not from Zodiac. We know there were fake letter writers. Would they stop at just one? Their stuff was getting published, imo, and they got a kick out of it.

The comparison is intriguing. The trace-overs are familiar as well.

Here is the K from the Bleeding Knife letter:

Here is what was a K in the Pines Card address:


Note the "h" within the "K". It is a rounded K almost resembling an "h" or "n". Looks like this was done with the Pines address too.

The Pines and HC card...and this Bleeding Knife letter are the only ones with the need to trace. Interesting!


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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:47 am

Good spot T. Interesting indeed.

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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:29 am

To me, what jumps out about the Bleeding Knife is that, at first glance, it does not look like Zodiac. That's what I find odd, a copycat,if trying to pass off a letter as a real Z letter, could have done a much better job making it look real. If this was written by Z, who knows what he was trying to do or what he was thinking.

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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:33 am

traveller1st wrote:



TRAV posted this, it is taken from 'this stae is in trouble' letter, one that also is thought to be a fake by some people, yet, TRAV illustrates that some of it does closely match Zodiac

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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:35 am

AK Wilks wrote:
Interesting!

There may have been a mix up somewhere. The FBI reports that the "state is in trouble" page one and "bleeding knife" page two were postmarked 12/16/69 FAIRFIELD CA.

This Sacramento Bee paste up is reported as for something else.

That is reported as Q 39, which was sent with the CANCER card!

Q 36 is the envelope for this "state" + "bleeding" letter! I did request that, hopefully I will get it.

The 1981 possible Zodiac letter in the Atlanta Child Murders would also use a newspaper card like this to send a message in.



AK, do we have the FBI page that specifically mentions the opinion of the FBI about the Bleeding Knife letter? I cant seem to find it

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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:22 pm

Howard aka Bruce3 & I spoke about this. Howard aka Bruce3 said: The 1990 Christmas Card was traced over too.
FYI: Authorities agree the HC was from the Z and it was traced over in places.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, it seems the Zodiac was into tracing.

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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:27 pm

Zamantha wrote:
Howard aka Bruce3 & I spoke about this. Howard aka Bruce3 said: The 1990 Christmas Card was traced over too.
FYI: Authorities agree the HC was from the Z and it was traced over in places.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So, it seems the Zodiac was into tracing.

Yes. Bruce3 has made those points at this message board.

The 1990 Christmas card has in no way been proven to be by Zodiac. We are all aware Morril said the HC card was from Zodiac. I just think there are good examples to reconsider.

So it could be SOMEONE was into tracing....it just wasn't Zodiac.

To each his own.

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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:29 pm

"the bleeding knife of Zodiac"......why does the writer refer to Zodiac in the third person? It's as if the writer is speaking of someone else. I don't see Zodiac doing that at all.

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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:33 pm

Both "by knife" is found in both the car door & the Halloween card. Paradice is misspelled in the Halloween card the same as the Z does in genuine Z letter(s)
http://www.kirps.com/web/main/resources/various/zodiac340/
The above link is interesting. He sees comparisons between the 480 and the HC card. The four "by(s)
Question: It says Bleeding knife not by knife as was on the car door so why use this argument it does not fit?

Myself, i feel the Z did some tracing.

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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:48 pm

I find it interesting the two that were traced (is that the write word?) were to Paul Avery.

Why does the handwriting only have these characteristics when writing to Paul?

Split-personalities aside...

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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:21 pm

Yes, handwriting expert LLoyd Cunningham did feel that the writing on the card had been traced over but he also felt that the 1990 card was a fake because of that tracing over.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Zodiac-s-written-clues-fascinate-document-expert-2644828.php#page-1

Zodiac's written clues fascinate document expert
Lance Williams, San Francisco Chronicle Copyright 2013 San Francisco Chronicle. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
Lance Williams, Chronicle Staff Writer
Published 4:00 am, Saturday, March 3, 2007


It's a task that the world's leading expert on the handwriting of San Francisco's most notorious fugitive killer has undertaken literally thousands of times.

From somewhere in the world, someone -- police officer, news reporter or amateur sleuth -- has sent a document that person suspects was written by the Zodiac, the 1960s serial killer who taunted police with handwritten notes boasting of his crimes, then disappeared.

Patiently and methodically, forensic document examiner Lloyd Cunningham reviews the handwriting, comparing it to known samples of the Zodiac's own script, looking for a clue that finally will break the case.

But for 27 years, the result has always been the same: no match.

Cunningham, 67, began investigating the Zodiac while a San Francisco police officer and has continued on the case as a private consultant. He insists he feels no frustration when he sits down to examine the latest purported Zodiac document, knowing it is likely to turn out to be junk.

Nor, he says, is he daunted by the avalanche of new Zodiac suspects -- "friends, neighbors, relatives, ex-spouses, whoever people want to pin the Zodiac murders on," as he describes them -- likely to be generated by the new "Zodiac" movie.

"Who knows?" he said Thursday in a phone interview from his home near Palm Springs. "Maybe one of them is right."

Cunningham became a police officer in 1963. On the night of Oct. 11, 1969, while working a plainclothes assignment, he was among dozens of officers who flooded the Presidio after the shooting of cab driver Paul Stine -- the last of the Zodiac's verified kills.

In 1980, after training with the U.S. Secret Service, Cunningham became the department's first forensic document examiner. Before then, police had relied on the state crime lab to analyze documentary evidence.

While an officer, and since he retired in 1991, Cunningham has worked on hundreds of legal cases. For Colorado authorities, he examined the ransom letter in the JonBenet Ramsey case. He reconstructed notes that mass killers Leonard Lake and Charles Ng forced their victims to write in the 1980s sex-slave murder ring in Calaveras County.

Nothing in his career has been quite like Zodiac. Cunningham plunged into the case immediately after finishing his forensic training. In those days, police received as many as 30 purported Zodiac documents per week.

"All over the world, people were mesmerized by the Zodiac mystery," he says, "and everyone's relative or ex-friend became a suspect."

Cunningham spent long hours with what he calls the case's "Rosetta Stone" -- the letter received by The Chronicle two days after the Stine killing in 1969. Because it contains a bloodstained piece of the victim's shirt, it's the only Zodiac letter that undeniably came from the killer.

Over the years, Cunningham says he memorized Zodiac's handwriting, including the uniqueness of its letter forms. The killer crossed his "t" low on the vertical stroke, Cunningham notes, and formed a distinctive "saddle" between the legs of his lowercase "m." He usually left generous spacing between lines, Cunningham says.

Copycat Zodiac missives often can be easy to spot, he says. A tip-off to copied or disguised handwriting is a lack of "fluency," he says.

"There's a rhythm in writing," he says -- when people jot notes or sign documents, they write quickly and confidently. "But if someone tries to copy or disguise their handwriting, it's no longer spontaneous," he says, and an expert can see signs of the effort in the script.

Soon after he retired, Cunningham says he was brought back into the Zodiac case by the Vallejo police, who were taking a new run at solving the crime. Their suspect was Arthur Leigh Allen, a retired schoolteacher, former mental patient and convicted child molester who had been singled out by Zodiac investigators in the 1970s but was cleared after he passed a lie detector test. Allen, who died in 1992, is still the favorite Zodiac suspect of some experts on the case, including Robert Graysmith, the former Chronicle editorial cartoonist who wrote the book on which the movie was based.

In 1991, police raided Allen's home in Vallejo and seized a trove of potential evidence, including a box of handwritten letters that spanned 25 years. Cunningham spent days examining them.

"I went through every piece of his known writing and compared it, and I couldn't find any evidence to link him to the Zodiac writings," Cunningham says.

But police didn't give up on Allen. They theorized that Allen had committed the Zodiac killings with an accomplice and that the accomplice had written the Zodiac letters. Cunningham says he thought the theory was promising. When police seized specimens of the suspected accomplice's handwriting, Cunningham believed a break in the case had finally come.

"My heart was going pitter-pat," he says. Then he sat down with the documents.

"We really thought Arthur Leigh Allen did the killings and this guy did the writing," Cunningham says. "I was never so let down -- it just wasn't the guy."

The most recent Zodiac-style document that Cunningham has examined came to him via The Chronicle's photo archive.

In an envelope of old news photos of the Zodiac case, editorial assistant Daniel King found a Christmas card addressed to The Chronicle and postmarked 1990. The handwriting resembled the Zodiac's, and the card itself was similar to one the killer is thought to have sent to the newspaper during his killing spree.

No one at the newspaper today remembers receiving the Christmas card or how it came to be put in the Zodiac photo file. The Chronicle gave the card and envelope last week to Vallejo police, the lead agency on the Zodiac murders, and provided Cunningham with scans of the documents.

Cunningham pointed out several similarities between the writing on the envelope and the Zodiac's script but noted discrepancies as well. More important, he says, the writing looked like it had been done slowly and carefully and in places appeared to have been overwritten.

"The big problem you have here is, why would a person overwrite all of these letters?" he says. "The Zodiac never did that in any of his writings." The overwriting led him to suspect that the writer was copying or tracing the script from another document.

"I could never conclude that this is the writing of the Zodiac," he says. "It tends to lean the other way -- I have the impression that someone tried to imitate the Zodiac's handwriting."





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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:32 am

morf13 wrote:
AK, do we have the FBI page that specifically mentions the opinion of the FBI about the Bleeding Knife letter? I cant seem to find it

AK Wilks: What follows is my original post with an assist from tahoe. I am still troubled by the envelopes, with a zip code and postage due, uncharacteristic of Zodiac. Yet trav and morf and others have pointed out interesting similarities with these Fairfield letters and the Pines card and other Zodiac missives.

I stumbled across something nobody has found.

I was trying to get more information on what the FBI thought of these Fairfield letters.

I found an FBI file were the analyst says that the Belli letter has matches to the 12/7 and 12/16 Fairfield letters, that compared to pre-December Z letters these three have distortion and were not written as freely, but that they have similar characteristics to other Zodiac letters, and that 'one person may have prepared ALL the threatening letters in this matter.'

A VERY SIGNIFICANT FIND! {Maybe - AK 2013}

The FBI analyst gives the same level of endorsement to the Fairfield letters that he gives to the Belli letter.

Look at pages 64, 65 and 70 here:

http://foia.fbi.gov/zodiac/zodiac3.pdf

Can someone save those and post those pages here?

Thanks!

tahoe27 wrote:
Here ya go!

PG 64:



PG 65:



PG 70:



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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:04 am

So what the analyst stated, was, the Bleeding knife has some distortion,but also some traits similar to other Zodiac letters.

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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:22 am

That darn "may" word again. I wish they say what the similiar characteristics were...not that we can't see for ourselves, but it would be nice to read their take on it.

What was Q41? Have we seen that?

Edit: I see we have seen it. The FBI seems to believe the astrology and the Flight 555 stuff aren't Zodiac.

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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:07 am

I cannot access any of the FBI files on Zodiac via the links.

Anyone know what Q34 was in regards to AK's recent post? It states the bleeding knife letter (Q36-38) doesn't really resemble to the threatening letters prior to Q34, but does bear similarities to Q34 & Q35.

Q34 & 35?

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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:18 am

tahoe27 wrote:
I cannot access any of the FBI files on Zodiac via the links.

Anyone know what Q34 was in regards to AK's recent post? It states the bleeding knife letter (Q36-38) doesn't really resemble to the threatening letters prior to Q34, but does bear similarities to Q34 & Q35.

Q34 & 35?

Qc34 Envelope: SF Chronicle, postmarked Fairfield, CA December 7, 1969
Qc35 Letter: "This is the Zodiac speaking-I just need help-I will kill again...I will turn myself in O.K."

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PostSubject: Re: "BLEEDING KNIFE OF ZODIAC" Letter   Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:21 am

Zamantha wrote:
tahoe27 wrote:
I cannot access any of the FBI files on Zodiac via the links.

Anyone know what Q34 was in regards to AK's recent post? It states the bleeding knife letter (Q36-38) doesn't really resemble to the threatening letters prior to Q34, but does bear similarities to Q34 & Q35.

Q34 & 35?

Qc34 Envelope: SF Chronicle, postmarked Fairfield, CA December 7, 1969
Qc35 Letter: "This is the Zodiac speaking-I just need help-I will kill again...I will turn myself in O.K."

Yep Zam got it. Q35 is the letter postmarked 12/7/69 Fairfield that contains the lines noted by Zam above, also it has a short cipher and the line "+ he will be a cop".

Q34 - Q38 are the 12/7/69 and 12/16/69 Fairfield letters and envelopes.

Q43 and Q44 are the Belli letter and envelope of 12/20/69.

The examiner notes that the Fairfield letters AND the Belli letter contain some "distortion" and appear to have been "not written as freely" as prior letters.

But then the examiner notes (on page 65) that the Fairfield letters have characteristics which indicate they "may have been prepared" by the same person who wrote the earlier confirmed Zodiac letters.

Now, just to be fair, and consider all sides, no Fairfield letter appears on the SFPD list of confirmed Zodiac letters. And I don't know the opinion of California DOJ or Morrill on the Fairfield letters.

The content lacks the tone of previous letters. It seems rushed and not as thought out. It is sort of simple minded and lacks the wit and intelligence of most previous Z letters.

There are clear differences in some of the writing, along with some similarities.

So ultimately, there is evidence to supprt both positions.

And the envelopes from Fairfield have zip codes and are under posted...those are deviations from known Zodiac practices which lean me towards these interesting letters probably being fake.

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