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 Peek Through The Pines card 3/22/71

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Roland
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PostSubject: Re: Peek Through The Pines card 3/22/71   Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:06 pm

Thank you, Bruce, for your detailed replies. Clearly, I am not contesting Donna Lass as possible Z victim, and I am also not contesting the site that is considered to be her grave site.

My point is that there are items in the story that seem to contradict each other. To me, this is not necessarily an "either-or" matter. It could be also an "and" story. Instead of having Donna Lass as victim #12 OR #13, it could be possible that we had a victim #12 AND Donna Lass as victim #13, where bodies have been placed in the Lake Tahoe area? Could it be that Z was visiting #12 at Lake Tahoe area site, with Donna Lass nearby?

I would consider such scenario still more probable than Z miscounting victims, and this even twice. If we would have indeed two victims in that area, that other victim would possibly either be a victim reported as a missing person, or a victim that was found in the area where little to no information has been available on the Internet yet.

I would see a possible time frame for that in the period of say May until September 1970. Problem is, we do not have a suitable victim in our database in that period. Of course, victim #12 could have been outside California. Nevada would be a good alternative, IMO.

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bruce3
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PostSubject: Re: Peek Through The Pines card 3/22/71   Thu Dec 02, 2010 3:23 pm

Rol,
I was posting or sharing with others as we all do as I know you lean towards the Pass area,'gravesite,'etc.

As far as victim count we are trying to figure out the mind of a vicious psychotic killer who was into codes, hidden meanings,subtle hints,etc.A symbolic thinker.

This after he crazily says he's going to 'change' how he kills and 'annouces' his victims,'etc.'in November 69.
By June 70 he claims unknown victim 12.
By July 70 it becomes 13 victims.No letters for August and September 70.

Then the October 70 postcard claims 13 victims.The October 70 Halloween card could be a 'double speak'or dual meaning from the king of subtle codes or hints himself as 13 victims with either a potential of a 14th victim(Avery) or 14 victims to date(10/27/70) which can include Lass.
This, if one allows for a retro date of 'seeking' (as the card has"sought ") victm 12 before June 26th.

Sought means as we well know, to seek after-it does not mean one has found the object,but is searching or reaching out to get it.Some 10 months after he claims victim 12 he then in a card sent some 6 months after Lass he says sought victim 12.

Now I have pointed out Dr.Hollingsworth 10/26/70 who vanished in LT and has never been found.He was depressed so some feel he killed himself.But,I lean towards the view the Pines card was all about Lass.

Was Z using two interplay levels:I sought out Lass earlier (Lass moved to LT in June 70!!!) as my victim 12,but and by implication, took another victim 12 in her place.?

Does the 10/27/70 card say she was victim 14(the press had not made any connections thus far until the Pines card-maybe Z was anxious to prove his connection thus the card?) with Avery as 14 in the sense he will be like his 14th victim or dead?

I say "sought" allows for a potnetial victim [i]looking back
to say June 70,but for some reason he killed another victim and went after Lass later making her 14? Z did say he was going to take Johns and her infant.So Lass for some reason was not taken as 12,but like Johns 'I will get her later' and he was saying this in his subtle manner on a 1971 missive.

Like I say we are not dealing with someone who is a poster child for mental health!
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Dice
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PostSubject: Re: Peek Through The Pines card 3/22/71   Fri Dec 03, 2010 7:33 am

Has anyone posted on the possibility that Kathleen John's unborn child may have been considered by Z to be a victim? I know it is a long shot, just thinking...
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tahoe27
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PostSubject: Re: Peek Through The Pines card 3/22/71   Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:41 pm

I'm still torn on Lass being a Zodiac victim.

Yes he said he would change his ways, but this?

When we say "Lake Tahoe", people need to realize how far it is from where Donna was abducted to where the Forest Pines Condos are and even further from the lodge of which (Bruce3) mentions. Well over an hours drive.

Not that someone couldn't drive her anywhere they wanted to....it just doesn't seem to fit how Zodiac did things. That is why I am still stuck on KJ's abductor being Zodiac as well. I am more for KJ actually being a Zodiac victim--at least Zodiac actually referred to her.
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bruce3
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PostSubject: Re: Peek Through The Pines card 3/22/71   Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:06 pm

Kathy told me the stranger drove her around for some two hours.And in the beginning of the trip he told her he would 'work for a period of time' and then do 'a lot of driving.'
Documented-many serial killers have taken their victims far away from where they abducted the victim.

We have BD working in "Tahoe" (far from where he lived in Southern CA) as he called it in a parole hearing and using a "fake driver's license."He worked as a barboy as they were called then and a waiter.He was in LT with chainsaw Tex Watson in 1969- the exact month I have not found.BD was there for a short time in '67.These guys drove all over the state.Since BD worked off/on he had lots of time on his hands.

So distance is not a factor here.
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tahoe27
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PostSubject: Re: Peek Through The Pines card 3/22/71   Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:49 pm

Guess there is a first time for everything...it's just from what we know of Zodiac, he didn't abduct people and/or drive them around.

Why would Zodiac acknowledge it was him who drove KJ around? She would have detailed info on his looks, voice, car, etc. I often wonder if he took credit like...yah, yah...that was me.

The Pines card was just too vague. I don't see how anyone could get a burial site from that hole punch. Impossible. Still 50-50 on them being Zodiac victims. Just my take of course.

If Zodiac was wanting his victims to look like accidents, etc., why did he acknowledge it?

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PostSubject: Re: Peek Through The Pines card 3/22/71   Fri Dec 03, 2010 5:54 pm

....because he still wanted to somehow "be in control of all things..."
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bruce3
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PostSubject: Re: Peek Through The Pines card 3/22/71   Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:25 pm

Z was unlike most serial killers and he was psychotic and we can't lay on him our own thought processes and say why he did or didn't do this or that.He was crazy!!!We can't seem to get that.
This we do know.We don't have enough attacks to see a set pattern,and not that there would be one, but what we do know is that he can vary it. 'Changing the way' of his murders had that all important "etc.,"in his letter.
This would leave any police department trying to figure out who he killed not knowing if it were Z or not.As a matter of fact this is what he wrote, 'I hope you have fun trying to figure out who I killed.'This was Z knife twisting and in his mind making it harder for the police in establishing a Z victim. To him it was 'fun.'But,his stated victim count on his missives which were varying in their presentations-postcards,greeting cards,letters,varying themes,would continue all the way up to and real or not 37!
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Roland
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PostSubject: Re: Peek Through The Pines card 3/22/71   Sun Dec 05, 2010 12:54 pm

My point still is that if the cards were indeed from Z, he claimed victim number 12 after he claimed 13, and he "sought" victim 12 after he claimed having killed victim 13.

If Donna Lass was a Z victim, I consider it still as very unlikely that Z counted her double, as victim 12 and 13. I consider it as same unlikely that Z could not count and failed in getting the sequence of his scores right.

On that premise, Lass must have been either victim 12 or victim 13. If Lass was victim 12, who was victim 13 that Z claimed before he abducted Lass as victim 12? If Lass was victim 13, who was victim 12? I believe that the probability is rather high that Lass was victim 13 since the 13 claim came one moth after her abduction.

Since no bodies have been found, the missing victim should be on a missing persons list, in my opinion. If so, date of disappearance should have been in the period of May to September 1970. This could be a person, presumably a female, that either went missing in the immediae area, or in Nevada, South Califoria, or elsewhere within driving distance of say less than 500 miles.
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Roland
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PostSubject: Re: Peek Through The Pines card 3/22/71   Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:48 pm

By the way, here is another reference that the card has been considered as a forgery:

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/l/lass_donna.html

It clearly says "... the postcard was later found to have been forged by a police officer". I do not say that everything that is written must be correct necessarily, but there are repeat references from different sources that the card was fake. Possibly people just copied this from each other, but this is just my assumption.

On the other hand, there is no reference to this on the SLTPD website http://www.sltpd.com/donna-lass.asp and Z has been mentioned as possible suspect.

I am not in defense or support of any theory. I just think these are points that should be explored further. In my opinion, even if the card was a forgery, it neither challenges that Lass was a possible Z victim, nor what has been considered to be her possible "grave site". At this point, the only thing in question is the authenticity of the card. In my understanding, it was also not the card that led to the "grave site", and the "grave site" had been discovered accidentially.

If the card was a forgery indeed, it would be one of the best explanations for what currently looks as a victim number miscount. Does anybody have contacts with the SLTPD and/or SFPD for further verification of the forgery allegation?

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bruce3
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PostSubject: Re: Peek Through The Pines card 3/22/71   Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:59 pm

Roll,
Many aspects of the Z case are either unknown due to lack of evidence,misinformation or because we do not have Z to question as in the BTK case, for example.So gaps in our knowledge and understanding have produced numerous fields of thought and speculation.

My view on victim count without Z to tell us the why's are:
miscount-Z was human and not infallable.He made mistakes that we know,so why not in his letter count? We don't know all that was transpiring in his life at every point in time.

Two unknown victims.Some have linked the Phillips map by fold over namely GS with SB victims.

Your view that there is an unknown victim.Not refuting,because all views need to be considered ,but there are lots of unknown victims if we follow the Z count down!

Retro historical view that Z indicated Lass was his intended ("sought")victim 12 as he "sought" her at one point(timing right as she went to LT to take her new postion in June of '70),but took another victim in her place at that time.
She later became victim 13 after 9/6/70 as mentioned in 10/5/70 and 10/27/70.We didn't get the Pines card until 3/22/71.

As far as the authenticity of the Pines card ( brush lettered-I agree Z demonstrated practice with brush lettering,which is harderr to do than printing-as with the Halloween card-Morrill's affirmative statement-info on card that was very,very Z like including the nice misspelled "Averly"as on the 10/27/70 envelope also,etc.,etc.) that will need to be a personal choice and I accept it until firm hard evidence dicates otherwise.There is enough there to warrant it's acceptance for now.It does fit in my view.

The "police officer" accused of forging the Pines by one detective was Insp.Toschi!!! I am sorry I do not believe he forged any Z letter at any time, and he finds it highly offensive even suggesting he did something like that.I didn't blame him for getting quite upset and angry over this foolish allegation. His whole career speaks of a honest dedicated public servant that had a lot of jealous enemies (Diane Feinstein realized this at the time)that feared he would become police Chief.A ot of politics going on during this period. Enough said.

The 'grave' was not discovered until August 1976 and the Pines had come to media attention in 1971.
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Roland
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PostSubject: Re: Peek Through The Pines card 3/22/71   Sun Dec 12, 2010 7:19 am

OK, Bruce, let us have a look at the facts as far as they are known to us:

1. With his Button Letter dated June 26, 1970, Z claimed his 12th victim. He said he "killed a man sitting in a parked car with a .38" http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=75&u=14945813

2. With his Kathleen Johns Letter dated July 24, 1970, Z informs that he has NOW a little list STARTING with a person believed to be Kathleen Johns http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=559&u=14945813

3. With his Little List Letter dated July 27, Z indicated on page 1 having 13 slaves waiting for him in the afterlife http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=564&u=14945813, and he reconfirms the score on the second page http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=564&u=14945813

4. The Punch Card dated October 5, 1970 claims 13 victims http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/unconfirmed-zodiac-letters-mailings-general-discussion-f6/13th-victim-claimed-and-fk-im-crackproof-t102.htm

5. With his Halloween Card dated October 27, 1970, Z claimed his 14th victim, again twice http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=552&u=14945813 and http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=555&u=14945813

6. The Peek Through The Pines Card dated March 22, 1971 says that the author "sought victim 12" http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=38&u=14945813

All communications listed above, with exception of 4. and 6., have been considered to be authentic Z communications.

My interpretation of the authentic Z communications is that the 12th victim had been already killed before June 26; the 13th victim had been killed before July 27 and after June 26; and that the 14th victim had been killed before October 27 and after July 27, 1970.

On that premise, Lass could neither be the 12th nor the 13th victim, because she had been abducted only on September 6, 1970, while Z claimed that he had his 13th victim already before July 27, 1970. Since Z said in his Z 408 cipher cracked by the Hardens that those he killed would become his slaves in afterlife, I would say that it is fair to assume that the 13th victim had been killed already at that time, considering that Z said that 13 slaves were already waiting for him.

Excluding 4. and 6. above, Z's victim claim appears to be in logical order in count and time.

If, just for the purpose of analysis, we would consider the Punch Card as authentic Z, too, the Punch Card would still combine somehow as it would not increase the score previously claimed, but I find it kind of odd that a 13th victim claim with the text "the pace isn't any slower" would be sent months after the initial claim indicating same victim score. This sounds like a contradiction to me. My conclusion here would be that the Punch Card does not really combine in terms of time.

Now, the Peek Through The Pines Card, if considered authentic, would put the whole thing upside down. The hypothesis that Z had a a list of known and named victims where Lass was number 12 does not hold in my opinion. As the Little List letter says, Johns would have been the first on that list. Therefore it is more than questionable that Lass would have been victim 12 in both, score and time.

Admittedly, there are different interpretation possibilities what "sought victim 12" could mean. In my opinion it makes only limited sense that Z would have sought an intended victim in a remote area around in the snow, etc., and I would consider it as much more probable, again on the premise of authenticity of the card, that Z returned to a crime site on a crime anniversary to revisit a victim, victim 12, that he could not find anynmore in the snow. However, in both cases this still leaves us with the problem that there seems to be no logical match with Z claims based on authentic messages, unless the victim that he sought was the man sitting in a parked car. Rather unlikely, in my opinion.

While I agree that both the Punch Card and the Peek Through The Pines Card look very Z-like, my problem is that all authentic communications and Z claims made in these communications seem to be fully coherent and consistent in time and victim count, and that the said cards seem to be inconsistent with the authentic communications.

To make matters worse, we have a clear statement on a website familiar with the case and with contacts to LE that explicitly says that, "In 1999 a retired detective revealed to me that a former Zodiac investigator had admitted to forging the Lass postcard", which leaves little space for interpreation. As it seems, there has not been only an accusation of forgery, but also an admission http://www.zodiackiller.com/Lass.html

Furthermore, the Peek Through The Pines Card does not refer to any Z relevant site. We do not have a victim at Incline Village, and the accidentally discovered "grave site" does not seem to connect with the card in any way other than that there is a very rough geographic match, if more than 23 miles outline can be considered as such.

In consideration of the above, the possibility that at least the Peek Though The Pines Card has been a forgery looks much more compelling to me than that it wasn't.

The hypotheses that Z was psychotic and could not count are not outdoing hard facts and logic, in my opinion. There is no evidence that Z had lost contact with reality. Actually, hard evidence suggests the contrary. I also believe that Z was very dilgent in committing his crimes, as bad as this may sound, and that very carefully he counted and claimed his victims. He even "celebrated" and communicated crime anniversaries.

If I should make a decision in view of the above if the Peek Through The Pines Card was authentic Z, I would have to say that it wasn't. I anyway try to keep an open mind towards possible authenticity but would require stronger points to seriously consider this possibility.
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bruce3
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PostSubject: Re: Peek Through The Pines card 3/22/71   Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:01 am

Roll,
Let's start-just for context- at the 11/8/69 card.Z says he killed people in December;July;August;September and October.We can account for Dec.- 2 victims;July- 1 victim and Oct.-1 victim,Sept.-1 victim, but not for August'69.
From the known facts of his crimes he does not give us who the two victims were.We don't know who comprises the 17 + for example,either (3/13/71) or the massive leap to 37 victims (1/29/74).

So from the outset of his baseball- like scorces for victims there is a problem.Some say he was just adding up fictious victims.Others it was the San Jose murders of the two girls.Still others,like myself possibly two victims out of(God forbid past/present thinking!) the Bay Area or two victims that were hitchikers or travelers to N.CA that he killed and disposed of,etc.,so were not in a data base. Toschi has said they searched and could find no known vicitms in the Bay Area. Z did say they were in for a "change."

We do learn from the beginning he does not 'count' injured or wounded victims like MM and BH.

The theory as to why Z may have missed a correct count,once,was that we do not know what was transpiring in his life.At one point he stopped ,including the perfect verification for his missives -a swatch of Stine's shirt.He had a few inches left over from what we know as to the size of the section he removed and what was sent. Why? We don't know what was going on in his personal life. It had to be disruptive. Did he take drugs? This can cause memory lapses at times.We know this.I believe Z took drugs.We know he was secreting himself perhaps travelling to different places,etc.,knowing he was wanted.Several things could have caused him to make an error in victim count.It's a possible for sure and can't be ruled out. He made mistakes this we do know.

Dr.Van Nuys believed Z's mind was starting to fragment too and gives his professional reasons for this based on all known facts.See his U Tube presentations and "This is the Zodiac Speaking" for those that are not familiar with the good doctor's assessment of Zodiac's thinking and mental/emotional issues.I do again affirm his mental state is important even possibly in this small issue of victim count,and it is a small issue compared to this weighty case overall !

Then there is "sought" not 'caught'victim 12.Do we even know who this victim was he was 'seeking' after? "Sought"( a 'scent' from early word derivation) means to seek after not to find.
I gave a possible reason for this.I do accept the Pines.I do accept the 10/5/70 for a number of reasons too even to the same unusual stamp on both the 10/5/70 and the 10/27/70 missives,and other details.You seem to rule them out or at least do not trust they are true Z missives and that's your right based on your research as you see it and this is well and good and goes for all of us.It's as it should be.

Much of the Z case as we know is speculation! One good reason for this is we don't have him to speak to as we did with BTK.

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PostSubject: Re: Peek Through The Pines card 3/22/71   Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:36 pm

I found a Chronicle article about this card. The copy I made of it is just too poor to post so I have transcribed it.

San Francisco Chronicle
Saturday March 27, 1971 Page 3

SNOW BLOCKS SEARCH FOR ZODIAC 'BODY'

By Paul Avery
Chronicle Correspondent

Incline Village, Lake Tahoe

Any search for a body the Zodiac killer has hinted he buried somewhere near Incline Village will probably be postponed until the snow begins melting, Sheriff Robert Galli of Washoe County, Nevada, said yesterday.

“There are already drifts up to six feet deep in some areas and it snowed again last night,” Sheriff Galli said “It would be senseless for us to conduct any search unless a particular spot is pinpointed.”

The possibility a Zodiac victim is buried near Incline Village was raised earlier this week when the self-claimed killer of “17 plus” persons mailed a cryptic picture postcard to The Chronicle.

The picture pasted on to the back of a 4-cent postal card has been determined to be an artist's rendering of a condominium village called Forest Pines which is under development here.

The picture was used as part of an advertisement for Forest Pines. It was published a week ago in several Northern California newspapers including The Chronicle.

Homicide investigators on both sides of the state line conferred by telephone yesterday trying to figure out precisely the message of Zodiac's latest message.

Because the words “sought victim 12” were contained in the communication detectives believe may have been saying he killed Donna Lass, a pretty nurse who disappeared from the Lake Tahoe area last September.

At about the time other verified Zodiac letters referred to his having killed victims 10 through 13. since November 1969, the killer has chosen not to identify any of his claimed victims by name.

Police Chief Ray Lauritzen of South Lake Tahoe said he has believed from the beginning Miss Lass was abducted and is dead.

“Since we haven't any other suspect in the case,” said Chief Lauritzen, “I suppose the Zodiac theory is as good as any. We most certainly are checking into this possibility because of the postcard sent to The Chronicle.”

The postcard is now part of a file of some 20 letters, greeting cards and other bizarre pieces of correspondence Zodiac has sent to newspapers since October 1966 when his first known victim, a Riverside college coed, was murdered.

Police concede they are no closer to capturing Zodiac than they were four years ago.
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: Peek Through The Pines card 3/22/71   Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:48 pm

Seagull, thanks for posting that
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PostSubject: Re: Peek Through The Pines card 3/22/71   Thu Apr 21, 2011 1:52 pm

morf13 wrote:
Seagull, thanks for posting that

I agree! LOVE reading writings by Paul Avery! MUCH Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Peek Through The Pines card 3/22/71   Sat May 07, 2011 2:56 am

Noticed an interest in the huts and offer the folloowing link: http://www.sierraclub.org/outings/lodges/huts/

Soze
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