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 Generic list of possible Z victims

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morf13
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PostSubject: Generic list of possible Z victims   Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:12 pm

Anyone want to add to a generic list of possible Z victims?

I found this list at another site:
Possible Victims

Robert Domingos (Age: 18)
Cheri Jo Bates (Age: 18)
Kathleen Johns (SURVIVED)
Donna Lass (Age: 22)
Linda Edwards (Age: 17)
Isobel Watson (SURVIVED)
Judith Ann Hikari
Nancy Bennallack
Marie Antoinette Anstey
Carol Beth Hilburn
"Dee" (A friend of Carol Beth Hilburn)
Joan Webster
Nancy Patricia Gidley
Cosette Ellison
Maureen Sterling (Age: 12)
Yvonne Weber (Age: 12)
Kim Wendy Allen (Age: 19)
Lori Lee Kursa (Age: 13)
Carolyn Nadine Davis (Age: 15)
Therese Dian Walsh (Age: 23)
Jeannette Kamahele (Age: 20)
Betty Cloer (Age: 21)
Linda Ohling (Age: 19)
Alexandra Clery (Age: 24)

Susan McLaughlin (Age: 19)
Yvonne Quilantang (Age: 15)
Cathy Fechtel (Age: 27)
Michael Shane (Age: 30)
Donna Marie Braun (Age: 14)
Susan Dye

I know some of these have been solved, just dont have the time to sort right now.
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AK Wilks
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PostSubject: Re: Generic list of possible Z victims   Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:09 pm

You can take Cloer off, she was killed by Phillip Arthur Thompson, he was just convicted.

You can add SFPD Officer Richard Radetich.
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PostSubject: Re: Generic list of possible Z victims   Thu Jun 24, 2010 3:59 pm

...slightly off-topic but related in a way; isn't Officer Radetich's daughter a fairly well known west coast investigative news reporter....If so, I wonder if she has investigated that angle vis a vis her father's murder...
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Nachtsider
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PostSubject: Re: Generic list of possible Z victims   Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:00 pm

What criteria are we using to put cases on this list...?
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: Generic list of possible Z victims   Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:19 pm

Nachtsider wrote:
What criteria are we using to put cases on this list...?

I had just put the above generic list up.

I personally would list crimes that had no apparent motives. No signs of rape, robbery, Drugs, etc

Also, crimes with obvious zodiac MO, such as lovers lane attacks, or attacks on couples in secluded areas (again with special attention to lack of rape/robbery)

Cases in which the newspapers, police, or victims family members received anonymous letters.

But feel free to list whichever cases you feel may be Z related.

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PostSubject: Re: Generic list of possible Z victims   Wed Jun 30, 2010 6:09 pm

Here's my list of suspected victims. Most of the list was built from the names suggested in the Zodiac book by Graysmith. The list also includes all the homicides that the police felt were related somehow (usually, because of a similar modus operandi), plus the victims that the Zodiac bragged about.


# - Date - Name
1 Sunday, June 4, 1963 Robert Domingos
2 Sunday, June 4, 1963 Linda Edwards
3 Sunday, October 30, 1966 Cheri Jo Bates
4 Friday, Dec. 20, 1968 David Arthur Faraday
5 Friday, Dec. 20, 1968 Betty Lou Jensen
6 Friday, July 4, 1969 Darlene Elizabeth Ferrin
A1 Friday, July 4, 1969 Mike Renault Mageau
7 Saturday, Sept. 27, 1969 Cecelia Ann Shepard
A2 Saturday, Sept. 27, 1969 Bryan Calvin Hartnell
8 Saturday, Oct. 11, 1969 Paul Lee Stine
9 Wednesday, Dec. 10, 1969 Leona LaRell Roberts
10 Tuesday, Jan. 20, 1970 Cindy Lee Mellin
11 ~Tuesday, March 3, 1970 Unidentified victim. (Could be Cosette Ellison?)
12 Thursday, March 5, 1970 Patricia King
13 Sunday, march 8, 1970 Judith Ann Hakari
A3 Sunday, March 22, 1970 Kathleen Johns
14 Monday, april 20, 1970 Eva Lucienne Blau
15 Friday, June 19, 1970 Sgt. Richard Radetich
16 Sunday, September 6, 1970 Donna Lass
17 Sunday, Oct. 25, 1970 Nancy Marie Bennallack
18 Friday, Nov. 13,1970 Carol Beth Hilburn
19 Sunday, Nov. 14,1970 Robin Ann Graham
20 Monday, August 23, 1971 Linda Sue Dudley
21 Saturday, Sept. 11, 1971 Mary Alice Willey
22 Friday, February 4, 1972 Maureen Sterling
23 Friday, February 4, 1972 Yvonne Weber
P1 Thursday, March 2, 1972 Susan McLaughlin
24 Saturday, March 4, 1972 Kim Wendy Allen
25 Sunday, March 26 1972 Linda Diane Uhlig
A4 Friday, April 7, 1972 Isobel Watson
26 Tuesday, April 25, 1972 Jeannette Kamahele
27 Monday, Sept 4, 1972 Alexandra Clery
28 Tuesday, Nov. 21, 1972 Lori Lee Kursa
29 ~Tuesday, May 29, 1973 Rosa Vasquez
30 Saturday, June 9, 1973 Yvonne Quilantang
31 ~Monday, july 2, 1973 Angela Thomas
32 Friday july 13, 1973 Nancy Patricia Gidley
33 Sunday, July 15, 1973 Carolyn Nadine Davis
34 Saturday, July 21, 1973 Nancy Feusi
35 Sunday, November 4, 1973 Laura O'Dell
36 Monday, December 3, 1973 Cathy Sue Pethtel
37 Monday, December 3, 1973 Michael Shane
38 Saturday, December 22, 1973 Therese Dian Walsh
P2 ~Friday, February 1, 1974 Brenda Merchant

Legend:
#: Victim murdered number (strongly suspected).
A#: Victim attacked number.
P#: Possible victim number.


What makes me think those are Zodiac murders? Many things. It turns out the date, the time and the place of murder follow some predefined patterns. There are also some common elements repeated in all of them. I'll write about that later.

For now, I'd like to know if ANY of those crimes were ever solved? Does anyone have a proof that one of the murder was committed by someone else than Zodiac?

Also, Roland if you read this, I'd be curious to see how close (or far) my list is from yours.
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PostSubject: Re: Generic list of possible Z victims   Wed Jun 30, 2010 7:35 pm

Nice list!
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Roland
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PostSubject: Re: Generic list of possible Z victims   Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:18 am

Thebes, I compared your list with ours. All the victims that you mentioned are on our list, too, with no exception. The only difference is that we listed more possible victims in the periods before 1968 and after 1974, and that we have "additional victims" on our list that we consider as less probable, but we still keep them for further evaluation.
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: Generic list of possible Z victims   Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:39 am

Roland wrote:
Thebes, I compared your list with ours. All the victims that you mentioned are on our list, too, with no exception. The only difference is that we listed more possible victims in the periods before 1968 and after 1974, and that we have "additional victims" on our list that we consider as less probable, but we still keep them for further evaluation.

Hoping to see your list too Roland
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PostSubject: Re: Generic list of possible Z victims   Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:38 am

My addition:

George Pimentel
DOD 11/8/1971
Vallejo, Solano Co.
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: Generic list of possible Z victims   Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:23 pm

Thebes wrote:
Here's my list of suspected victims. Most of the list was built from the names suggested in the Zodiac book by Graysmith. The list also includes all the homicides that the police felt were related somehow (usually, because of a similar modus operandi), plus the victims that the Zodiac bragged about.


# - Date - Name
1 Sunday, June 4, 1963 Robert Domingos
2 Sunday, June 4, 1963 Linda Edwards
3 Sunday, October 30, 1966 Cheri Jo Bates
4 Friday, Dec. 20, 1968 David Arthur Faraday
5 Friday, Dec. 20, 1968 Betty Lou Jensen
6 Friday, July 4, 1969 Darlene Elizabeth Ferrin
A1 Friday, July 4, 1969 Mike Renault Mageau
7 Saturday, Sept. 27, 1969 Cecelia Ann Shepard
A2 Saturday, Sept. 27, 1969 Bryan Calvin Hartnell
8 Saturday, Oct. 11, 1969 Paul Lee Stine
9 Wednesday, Dec. 10, 1969 Leona LaRell Roberts
10 Tuesday, Jan. 20, 1970 Cindy Lee Mellin
11 ~Tuesday, March 3, 1970 Unidentified victim. (Could be Cosette Ellison?)
12 Thursday, March 5, 1970 Patricia King
13 Sunday, march 8, 1970 Judith Ann Hakari
A3 Sunday, March 22, 1970 Kathleen Johns
14 Monday, april 20, 1970 Eva Lucienne Blau
15 Friday, June 19, 1970 Sgt. Richard Radetich
16 Sunday, September 6, 1970 Donna Lass
17 Sunday, Oct. 25, 1970 Nancy Marie Bennallack
18 Friday, Nov. 13,1970 Carol Beth Hilburn
19 Sunday, Nov. 14,1970 Robin Ann Graham
20 Monday, August 23, 1971 Linda Sue Dudley
21 Saturday, Sept. 11, 1971 Mary Alice Willey
22 Friday, February 4, 1972 Maureen Sterling
23 Friday, February 4, 1972 Yvonne Weber
P1 Thursday, March 2, 1972 Susan McLaughlin
24 Saturday, March 4, 1972 Kim Wendy Allen
25 Sunday, March 26 1972 Linda Diane Uhlig
A4 Friday, April 7, 1972 Isobel Watson
26 Tuesday, April 25, 1972 Jeannette Kamahele
27 Monday, Sept 4, 1972 Alexandra Clery
28 Tuesday, Nov. 21, 1972 Lori Lee Kursa
29 ~Tuesday, May 29, 1973 Rosa Vasquez
30 Saturday, June 9, 1973 Yvonne Quilantang
31 ~Monday, july 2, 1973 Angela Thomas
32 Friday july 13, 1973 Nancy Patricia Gidley
33 Sunday, July 15, 1973 Carolyn Nadine Davis
34 Saturday, July 21, 1973 Nancy Feusi
35 Sunday, November 4, 1973 Laura O'Dell
36 Monday, December 3, 1973 Cathy Sue Pethtel
37 Monday, December 3, 1973 Michael Shane
38 Saturday, December 22, 1973 Therese Dian Walsh
P2 ~Friday, February 1, 1974 Brenda Merchant

Legend:
#: Victim murdered number (strongly suspected).
A#: Victim attacked number.
P#: Possible victim number.


What makes me think those are Zodiac murders? Many things. It turns out the date, the time and the place of murder follow some predefined patterns. There are also some common elements repeated in all of them. I'll write about that later.

For now, I'd like to know if ANY of those crimes were ever solved? Does anyone have a proof that one of the murder was committed by someone else than Zodiac?

Also, Roland if you read this, I'd be curious to see how close (or far) my list is from yours.

Regarding:

36 Monday, December 3, 1973 Cathy Sue Pethtel
37 Monday, December 3, 1973 Michael Shane

I think you can almost certainly remove them from the list. I think they were victims of the Zebras, or Black Panthers, one of those radical black groups from the late 60's in the Bay area.
There were links to those groups, and motorists witnessed the two girls talking to a couple of black men right before they were murdered.
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PostSubject: Re: Generic list of possible Z victims   Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:08 pm

My list of CA victims:

June 8/9, 1967 – Fermin Rodriguez killed in Alameda County Near Pleasanton
June 8/9, 1967- Enedine M Molina, AKA, Enedine Martinez Alameda County near Pleasanton
They were parked on a lovers lane. The male was attacked and murdered on the spot. The female was taken to a nearby park entrance. She was shot in the back with a .22 as she ran, no signs of rape or robbery. Both victims reported receiving "heavy breathing" crank calls, and being followed by an unknown man in the time leading up to their deaths. At the present time, Alameda County Sheriffs Dept is attempting to compare these bullets to the bullets in the 12/20/68 LHR murders. They are being held up by CAL DOJ red tape. Although results could take 6 months, they are trying for a quicker process. Zodiac mailed multiple letters from the town of Pleasanton, and Kathleen Johns was attacked not too far from there.



December, 1967 Barbara Jane Parkin, on a beach near Vallejo, nurse shot with a .38 near the beach. No motive.

January, 1973 -Donna Rae Bramell killed in Alameda County. Like the June 67 victim above, she was taken to the spot where her body was found, a park entrance. She was shot with a .22

Possible PA victims:
December 1975, Lindy Sue Biechler...a very "zodiac-like" letter received in her case. Killed in her own apartment, with a knife from her own apartment. Was not raped or robbed. Around the one year anniversary of her murder, her gravestone was vandalized.

March 4, 1987, Dana Bailey, a Penn State student murdered in her apartment near the campus. She was hog-tied, stabbed and slashed. Was not raped or robbed. The knife was from her own apartment.
On the 2 year anniversary of her murder, her father got an anonymous letter signed "concerned officers". (Remember, The Father of Cheri Jo Bates got a letter also)

LONGSHOT- November 28, 1969, Betsy Aardsma murdered in the Penn State college campus library, while wearing a red dress. One main suspect in this case was a man with the initials R.H -------- Shades of the Bates case. Although this is a longshot as far as her being a Z victim, the timeline fits. She was killed during Thanksgiving break, and it was in between any Zodiac correspondences. Not to mention, a desktop poem was found etched in a classroom. It may or may not have any relation to her case.

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PostSubject: Re: Generic list of possible Z victims   Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:08 pm

The trouble with some cases that are post Z is that of influence. How much did the previous Z case influence the serial killer now engaged in crimes?
BTK we know mentioned Zodiac for example.
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PostSubject: Re: Generic list of possible Z victims   Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:18 pm

Good point Howard. He obviously influenced the Zodiac copycat from NYC.

But I think Z may have moved on to another state after 1974. He certainly couldnt call himself Z any longer, or police could track who had come from CA, and it would be easier to catch him. I think some of his MO would remain the same(taunting letters, wanting to be published, etc)
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PostSubject: Re: Generic list of possible Z victims   Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:26 pm

M1,
Yes. But all officers or detectives I have talked to or read after or seen on TV crime shows believe that Z is either dead ,in some mental instituion or in prison for other crimes or scary thought he is still out there killing or not! That is the professional thought concerning Z. Of course,that does not land lock Z to CA!
It's an unsolved case so all are simply guesses.

BTK stayed close to home so anything is possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Generic list of possible Z victims   Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:30 am

bruce3 wrote:
The trouble with some cases that are post Z is that of influence. How much did the previous Z case influence the serial killer now engaged in crimes?
BTK we know mentioned Zodiac for example.

Could you please post a link to the info about BTK " mentioned Zodiac ".
I´v never heard of that before.

Thanks

TF
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PostSubject: Z    Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:54 pm

I think that most LE would like to think that the Z is dead, or like Bruce 3 suggests he is in jail , a mental hospital or dead.
What some others don't understand is ,there are also some LE that believe the Z could be still doing his thing. Keeping his word, as to not announcing to anyone that he is still alive and killing. Sure he is much older now, but who's to say that he is no longer a dangerous threat ? Perhaps that is why he is using a stun gun, and now going after easy victims ?

As long as his killings get the attention he so craves, that keeps him happy. Lets think about all the high profile cases that are still unsolved ? Most of the victims were not raped or robbed, and in some cases there were notes left at the scene. I don't see why the Z wouldn't have been considered in those crimes ?

The young women who luckily got away from the killer in Pittsburg Ca.durring the 1990's ,say that he used a stun gun on them. Some said that he put a bag over their heads and tied a rope around the bag so they couldn't see where he was taking them. One of the body's found durring this crime spree ,had a note put on her body. A unknown person "placed a call" to the local police, letting them know where one of those body's could be found.

If this doesn't sound very much like what the Zodiac has done , I don't know what would ? The description is also like what the Z would look like today. Still barrel chested, stocky, now has wavy reddish brown salt and pepper hair, speaks in a monotoned voice, about 5 ft 9 in. I don't want to sound redundant, but if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it has to be a duck !
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