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 Reasons why your "Other Suspect & POI" is Z or should be taken seriously

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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: Reasons why your "Other Suspect & POI" is Z or should be taken seriously   Tue Jun 15, 2010 2:50 pm

rand wrote:
For those who don't like TH as a suspect because they can't believe that he would just disappear for 40 years (even though he said he would go underground and he had tons of aliases and DePugh ordered all MM members to have several fake IDs, which they handed out to their members regularly), READ THIS STORY THAT JUST CAME OVER THE WIRES:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_wedding_chapel_fugitive

I just posted something today about this guy. I for one am not saying that TH couldnt be Zodiac...I am merely saying that you cant place him in the bay area at all. My opinion is that chasing after TH is like chasing after Keyser Söze. Maybe he is real, maybe he isnt, but good luck trying to find him.

And skeptic will say they want something solid, they NEED something solid. Everything presented regarding TH, is circumstantial...interesting,but circumstantial.
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rand
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PostSubject: Re: Reasons why your "Other Suspect & POI" is Z or should be taken seriously   Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:07 pm

wouldn't that statement be true of EVERY suspect. If there was something "solid" (finger prints, handwriting match, DNA), we'd know it was Z.

The idea that placing a person in the Bay Area is solid doesn't strike me as quite right. I'd rather have 50 pieces of compelling circumstantial evidence than proof that someone was in the Bay Area. I can get a phone book from 1969 and show millions of people who lived in the Bay Area. That isn't "solid" evidence that any of them were Z. Z could have lived in Riverside or LA or San Diego or Lake Tahoe or Seattle or anywhere else for all we know.
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: Reasons why your "Other Suspect & POI" is Z or should be taken seriously   Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:44 pm

rand wrote:
wouldn't that statement be true of EVERY suspect. If there was something "solid" (finger prints, handwriting match, DNA), we'd know it was Z.

The idea that placing a person in the Bay Area is solid doesn't strike me as quite right. I'd rather have 50 pieces of compelling circumstantial evidence than proof that someone was in the Bay Area. I can get a phone book from 1969 and show millions of people who lived in the Bay Area. That isn't "solid" evidence that any of them were Z. Z could have lived in Riverside or LA or San Diego or Lake Tahoe or Seattle or anywhere else for all we know.

Of course I dont mean prints, or DNA, obviously if we had that, we would have Z.

I mean a "link" to the bay area. If you cant show that a person was even in the Bay area, how can you show they could be Zodiac? Look at it from the standpoint of the police. ALA, and some others may not have been Z, but there was an investigative trail to follow. They could be looked at and ruled out. Somebody like TH, cant even be looked at, since there is nothing there to look at.

I am not trying to tell you not to look at him as a Z suspect...I think you should. But, you also have to realize that it probably will be impossible for Police to ever legitimately look at this guy.

The topic is called "Reasons why your "Other Suspect & POI" is Z or should be taken seriously". I think you have gathered alot of circumstantial evidence against TH. But it's an uphill battle trying to make a case for him as Zodiac.

I know what you had to go thru to get what you have found so far, I have done alot of of digging so far for my POI's. But at least they can be checked out to rule them in or out...police can knock on their door, take their prints, DNA, etc., even if they were not Zodiac.
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Clovis
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PostSubject: Re: Reasons why your "Other Suspect & POI" is Z or should be taken seriously   Tue Jun 15, 2010 7:50 pm

Zabagliona wrote:
I have no idea how they got ammo for them...LOL....but, my grandfather worked in a foundry as did many of his friends....maybe they were able to modify or use other ammo;

Not likely necessary. The 9mm was introduced before WW1 and the Luger PO8 was not the only gun chambered for it. I doubt ammo would have been hard to find.
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PostSubject: Re: Reasons why your "Other Suspect & POI" is Z or should be taken seriously   Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:01 pm

Thank you Clovis; I figured they must have used something else that was around, because these were a group of Armenian immigrants who worked in foundries and didn't exactly have a lot of money... I wasn't allowed near his guns, as I was too little at the time... Very Happy
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AK Wilks
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PostSubject: Re: Reasons why your "Other Suspect & POI" is Z or should be taken seriously   Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:26 pm

The one small thing that interests me about this is that Zodiac seemed to be proud that it was a "Luger". I mean, who cares? Why mention it?

This is the gun of Nazi officers.

So it makes me think that Zodiac was a right-winger (like Houghton), a big interest in German/Nordic history (like Kaczynski) or maybe just a WWII or history buff, or gun nut.
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PostSubject: Re: Reasons why your "Other Suspect & POI" is Z or should be taken seriously   Tue Jun 15, 2010 8:36 pm

I get the sense he was an ultra right-winger too, AK...with some uhhhh, interesting religious views thrown in for good measure.... Shocked
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rand
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PostSubject: Re: Reasons why your "Other Suspect & POI" is Z or should be taken seriously   Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:09 am

Morf: I don't think it's uphill at all regarding TH as Z. The evidence speaks for itself. He went underground. So what? He was the leader of the California chapter of the Minutemen. It's not like he didn't have ties to Riverside, Vallejo, SF, etc. The target sign, the by knife, by rope, by gun, by fire; the days and places of the murders, all show Z was a Minuteman. Then there are all the other clues that point to TH as the Minuteman. It's all there. The background. What's uphill? Z said he was crackproof, he spoke of society's offenders going underground. LE would rather look at bad suspects with not even half the things I've undercovered regarding TH and Z just because they can place them in the Bay Area? That makes no sense to me; and, perhaps, that's why the case hasn't been solved.

I would bet my life, literally, that TH was Z. I understand what I've unearthed about him and the links to Z, and they can't all be coincidences. There are just too many of them. So, IMO, there is nothing uphill about TH as Z. He was Z. There is not an iota of doubt in my mind. But that's my opinion. I'm happy to discuss each piece of information I've listed with anyone who wants to discuss them. The fact that he went underground does nothing to deter my feelings about it. I think it's precisely what Z would have done before committing these bizarre murders. I think it's precisely why he was so cocky about taunting LE and the newspapers.
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AK Wilks
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PostSubject: Re: Reasons why your "Other Suspect & POI" is Z or should be taken seriously   Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:50 am

Rand I don't think TH was Z, but I think you have shown enough evidence that it should be checked out. If you can get a stamp or envelope that TH licked, or a hairbrush he used, whatever, I can put you in touch with people in LE who can do something with it. Of course you can pursue this on your own, but Morf and I can tell you it is very hard to make that first contact with law enforcement. I now have some people who I have contact with, so I might be able to get you a bit of a head start with them.

We can debate the merits of TH as Z endlessly, but it is meaningless. Only checking DNA and/or fingerprints will get us somewhere.

So my offer of help is there if and when you want it. I can tell you more about the process in a pm if you want.

And if you knew all that I know about TK as Z, including info I can't talk about, you wouldn't be so sure about TH.
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rand
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PostSubject: Re: Reasons why your "Other Suspect & POI" is Z or should be taken seriously   Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:45 am

Thanks AK! That's terrific of you. Now I gotta find some DNA Wink
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: Reasons why your "Other Suspect & POI" is Z or should be taken seriously   Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:59 am

rand wrote:
Morf: I don't think it's uphill at all regarding TH as Z. The evidence speaks for itself. He went underground. So what? He was the leader of the California chapter of the Minutemen. It's not like he didn't have ties to Riverside, Vallejo, SF, etc. The target sign, the by knife, by rope, by gun, by fire; the days and places of the murders, all show Z was a Minuteman. Then there are all the other clues that point to TH as the Minuteman. It's all there. The background. What's uphill? Z said he was crackproof, he spoke of society's offenders going underground. LE would rather look at bad suspects with not even half the things I've undercovered regarding TH and Z just because they can place them in the Bay Area? That makes no sense to me; and, perhaps, that's why the case hasn't been solved.

I would bet my life, literally, that TH was Z. I understand what I've unearthed about him and the links to Z, and they can't all be coincidences. There are just too many of them. So, IMO, there is nothing uphill about TH as Z. He was Z. There is not an iota of doubt in my mind. But that's my opinion. I'm happy to discuss each piece of information I've listed with anyone who wants to discuss them. The fact that he went underground does nothing to deter my feelings about it. I think it's precisely what Z would have done before committing these bizarre murders. I think it's precisely why he was so cocky about taunting LE and the newspapers.

Rand, dont get me wrong, keep digging. But what you have here is NOT "evidence". Its "circumstantial evidence". Thats a big difference! There was a guy named Arthur Leigh Allen who had plenty of "evidence" against him too....and he lived in Vallejo. But he wasnt Z!

Again, I am looking at this from a police standpoint.

So what, he was the leader of an anti govt establishment & he had a sexual assault.....neither of these two things relate to Zodiac. (Z never was confirmed to rape anyone, nor did he ever try to attack the govt, or make anti-govt statements) And I am no expert, but the writing samples you provided dont look like Zodiac's to me.

The best thing you have is the crossed circle, IMO.

Another question, why if he went underground, would he stay in CA? Why not go to another state...or even a country for that matter?

I am not trying to bash you ou your POI, I really am not. I just am stating my opinions, and also playing devil's advocate (the cops).

Good luck continuing on your search, and I do hope you find great stuff...somebody needs to determine who Z was.

BY THE WAY- Please feel free to pick at my POI, I encourgae it! I want to know how the police would look at my POI and my presentation of him, and what is strong, and what is weak or circumstantial.
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PostSubject: Re: Reasons why your "Other Suspect & POI" is Z or should be taken seriously   Wed Jun 16, 2010 8:38 am

Hi Morf....

While Z was not anti-government per se, he was clearly "anti authority", and very anti-police...

He did clearly make statements against the police...
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rand
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PostSubject: Re: Reasons why your "Other Suspect & POI" is Z or should be taken seriously   Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:49 am

Morf: you're ignoring so much of what I presented. You say, so what he was a member of an anti-establishment, right-wing group. But you're ignoring the significance of why THAT particular group would matter. The days that Z murdered and the places have to do with the revolutionary period. The cards and letters similarly have this theme (e.g., a Citizen - see details below). Then you have the by rope, by poison pen, by knife, by gun with the crosshair on the MM decal. Show me one other place where you have a crosshair symbol and a by rope, by gun, by knife together? Nowhere except Z.

CITIZEN CARD
The Citizen Card, May 8, 1974: A Clue to Z's "Minuteman identity":
Back: http://www.zodiackiller.com/CitizenCard1.html
Front: http://www.zodiackiller.com/CitizenCard2.html
Notice Zodiac chose a Samuel Adams stamp for the Citizen letter (the signature, "a citizen," also smacks of the Revolutionary period). The purpose of Paul Revere's famous "Midnight Ride" from Boston to Lexington was to warn John Hancock and Samuel Adams of the movements of the British Army, which was beginning a march from Boston to Lexington, ostensibly to arrest Hancock and Adams and seize the weapons stores in Concord. And, get this: Adams was born on the September 27, the same date as the murder at Lake Berryessa/Monticello. And Paul Revere died May 10, 1818. The Citizen Letter was sent on May 8, 1974.

THE DRAGON CARD:
A dragon is the symbol used by the KKK on their original flag. TH was a KKK member. The Green Dragon is the famous place where Paul Revere began his ride. Here's the symbol for the Green Tavern:


The card has BLAST in caps. TH owned TROJAN MINING AND BLASTING CO.
It was a Jolly Roger Card. TH was speaking at the Jolly Roger Inn when guns went off. This incident made the LA Times front pages.

THE EXORCIST LETTER: Z PLACED A CLOCK STAMP ON IT AND OUTLINED IT IN THE STRANGE FIGURE
TH was a regional coordinator for the Minutemen. Z placed a clock-stamp on the envelope of the Exorcist letter:
http://www.zodiackiller.com/ExorcistEnvelope.html
Sean at TV's site has convincingly shown that Z traced the clock for part of the strange symbol on the letter.

THE HALLOWEEN CARD:
There are many Halloween Card clues pointing to TH. Most important, it's a flasher, and no one had seen this prior to TH. Why would Z go to such lengths to put the image of a flasher on a card, write PEEK-A-BOO, if it wasn't a CLUE re his identity? The card says: YOU ACHE TO KNOW MY NAME, SO LET ME CLUE YOU IN...
Also on that card is the figure SLAVES PARADISE, which forms TH for Troy Houghton.




On that same card you have 13 Eyes. 13 BULLET HOLES, TH mentioned in the LOOK article. LOOK, EYES. 13 EYES. That's alot of clues and circumstantial evidence for one suspect. What other POI can you name where the CLUES on the HC line up. And remember: these clues that lined up were found by me AFTER I came up with TH as a suspect. In other words, I didn't figure out it was TH from the CLUES, I got him first and he fit the CLUES -- revealed what Z was trying to show us. My suspicion is that, when you get the right guy, the case will make sense; the clues will make sense. In other words, the right suspect should enlighten us about the case.

THE LITTLE LIST LETTER:

TH said in his last interview that he had a list of victims who would be killed when he went underground. He is mentioned in an article about having A LITTLE LIST.





Okay, now what about everything else I've shown about TH's background? He was the guy in charge of explosives (and his lectures read just like Z's list of ingredients for the bomb). Then you have the MM codes, which was a core part of their operations. Then you have the Gilbert and Sullivan references. And, more important, the LITTLE LIST connection. Add to this,the shooting out the tires incident (who else has that?) that happened four years earlier to the day as LHR, the Deer Lodge Prison connection (extremely important) to the MM.


TROY HOUGHTON'S PERSONALITY AND BACKGROUND

Does this sound like something Z would do?
From LA Times, Oct. 5, 1965, "New Revere on Horseback" by Paul Coates:
"Haughton [at a Minutemen training session] described and demonstrated the use of metallic sodium, which explodes in water. He told of an instance where gasoline was poured into a left-winger's swimming pool and then metallic acid was added. This caused the water and gasoline to explode and burn.
It was announced that the Minutemen organization expects to send out plans for making a Sten gun at home. All necessary parts will be obtainable from any hardware store. Haughton explained that he had fired a gun made from these plans and found it to be very effective.
We were told that prankster type auto bombs, which produce smoke and whistling noises can be used to harass left-wingers. Harrassment can also be accomplished by phoning Communists at two and three in the morning.
Directions were given for the method of dynamiting a car in sabatoge activities. Haughton then suggested the use of a hyperdermic needle attached to an arrow. With the vial containing a particular type poison, the victim could be shot in the head. He said that a small injection in the scalp area could be overlooked by an autopsy surgeon."

HOW ABOUT THIS?
Here's an excerpt about him: "The California “Minutemen” was the brainchild of Troy Houghton of San Diego, CA. Houghton, while favoring the militant slant to anti-Communism, was bent to Halloween type pranks against the better known socialists and leftists of his area. One such rank was the mailing of a small tape recorder complete with a tape to a elected victim, usually some left wing character. Naturally, if you were to anonymously receive such an item you would be apt to play the tape. The voice on this tape said: “...this recorder contains ahigh explosive bomb set to go off in exactly ten seconds — nine — eight — seven — six — ....” One can only imagine the gymnastics performed by the mark in trying to dispose of the “bomb” before zero! Houghton's ability to escalate a touchy situation rather than defuse it, a fascination for machine guns and his apparent leaning toward other questionable areas would later become his undoing."From: http://www.scatteredremnant.org/MMCh4.pdf

TH was a miner who, for a brief time, worked with a geologist at UCLA. Z used the term "positively ventilate" about a bomb; seems like a miner's term.

TH's was a MM whose leader, DePugh, donned a Minute Mask at a press conference in Nov. 1961 while sitting next to him (Z wore a mask at Lake Berryessa, see attachment) Here's a newspaper article that mentions the Minute Mask (see end) discussed by Houghton and DePugh at the Minutemen conference at the Statler Hilton, LA on Nov. 10, 1961:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=HJ0yAAAAIBAJ&sjid=U-kFAAAAIBAJ&pg=633,3613729&dq=minutemen+conference+statler+hilton&hl=en

The MM placed decals on people's cars with crosshairs and writing about killing traitors by rope, by knife, by gun, by poison pen. They placed them on cars in the SF area in the summer of 1968; months before the LHR murder. Z wrote on Hartnell's door and drew a crosshair symbol. Same thing.


There are many, many other things I've found that are very compelling. This is just some of it. I don't think the crosshair is at all the best thing I've found. But that's my view.

As for the handwriting: I think the unique comparisons I've shown with the cursive is very compelling. Very few people make curly-cues and the other things I've shown. It doesn't move me one way or the other, but it isn't at all inconsistent, IMO. All I have is cursive, and that show us nothing, really.
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AK Wilks
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PostSubject: Re: Reasons why your "Other Suspect & POI" is Z or should be taken seriously   Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:31 pm

Rand, my offer to help stand, and hopefully we can talk more about this in pm's in the weeks and months to come. I do think you have shown enough that TH should be checked out.

But let me offer some criticism as well, as that can also be helpful (it often has been to me).

Some of what you show relates specifically to TH - shooting out the tires, the sex charge, going underground, etc.

But much of your evidence would tend to show that Zodiac could have a member of the Minutemen or even been a non-member who read their material and was influenced by it.

There could be many members of the MM who could be just as good a suspect as TH, and who were known to live in the Bay Area at the time and were without question alive. Some MM members branched off into other far right groups, Neo-Nazi and white supremacists, and these groups were very violent and are tied into Norse myths and symbols, as Z seemed to be. I wonder if such a person could be identified - a MM or other right wing group member who lived in the Bay Area during the time period.

Also, a LOT of non-members read MM books and materials. One I think was my POI, Ted Kaczynski. MM books call for "patriots" to bury arms, ammo and food caches underground in different areas near and away from home - something TK actually did. MM calls for the use of codes to disguise notes and messages - TK actually did this as well. MM calls for people to use an "ID Number" instead of a name - and TK did this on his letters to the FBI and newspapers. MM also mentioned bombs, sniper attacks and use of poison - TK had all three in his cabin, and used bombs a lot, did at least one sniper attack on a miner and killed a neighbors dogs with poison (and is under investigation for being the Tylenol poison killer). Like MM, TK idolized the American revolutionaries. TK was NOT a leftist as many think - during the crazy sixties in Berkeley, he had short hair, wore a suit and tie and thought of himself as a conservative, a radical individualist and a firm anti-communist. He said he admired the Weatherman for their "commitment" but considered them his opponent. He seems to have been influenced by Ayn Rand, Nietzsche and other individualists and anarchists. After he wrote of wanting to kill love making couples, promiscuous college students, police, businessmen and scientists he stated "I would also like to kill a communist."

So my point is that much of the evidence that shows Zodiac may have been influenced by the MM could mean that TH was the Zodiac, but could also mean it was another member, or even a non-member who read and adopted their methods, as TK did.

Food for thought.
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rand
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PostSubject: Re: Reasons why your "Other Suspect & POI" is Z or should be taken seriously   Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:49 pm

Yes, it's possible that there is another MM who was Z. No doubt. But I think the fact that TH disappeared, was flamboyant like Z, was in the newspapers like Z, and had several idiosyncratic things (flasher/indecent exposure) in his past that few MM would have had, all make him esp. good. But food for thought, AK. Thanks again! I'll be back on the board Thursday night.
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PostSubject: Re: Reasons why your "Other Suspect & POI" is Z or should be taken seriously   Today at 9:52 pm

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