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 "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino

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Luke68
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Thu May 05, 2011 6:20 am

sandy betts wrote:
AK ,I don't think that what you posted is a stretch at all, it makes total sense ! I also believe that the Z has copied printing from other people. to throw off the police ( more or less to screw with them ).

Something that I have heard about letters being wrinkled up by perps. Is that they sometimes do this to smudge their finger prints up. Especially if they didn't have gloves handy at the time it was written.
My take on the PH letter ,is that she did not remember ever writing it. And that it wasn't like anything that she would have written.
DNA should be done on that envelope, to be sure one way or the other.

I think that the killer wrote it, and felt that he had a very hard life growing up, and that people should feel sorry for him. I doubt he was sorry for killing CJB, it appears to me that he wanted to punish Joseph Bates, and that was why he wrote a note to him. The paper that was used to write" Bates had to die", I felt could have been CJB's paper from her note book ? It could have been just another way for the killer to say : I was the one , and here is paper from her note book to prove it.

I'm leaning towards AK's theory too. It would be really insightful to see some confirmed letters of PH so we can confirm tonality and style. In the meantime, the things (for me) that indicate this was written by the perpetrator are:
- it contains blame (of the parents) which is the same as absolution of personal responsibility, either legal or (especially) moral
- it contains a warning (a blueprint for future crimes)
- it shows detatchment and (one could therefore argue) disdain for the victim. Although a clear reason is given ('more interesting') what the writer really wants is a story about (in their mind) the real victim i.e. them. this fits in with the pity seeking need of psychopaths.

If I'm wrong and this was written by PH, then (as Nachtsider believes), PH knows something more than is being said. Could someone like PH who was, like Cheri, attractive and seemingly popular, empathise so easily and coldly with a killer she didn't know on an assumption that his actions were a direct result of his nurture. I for one think not.

One concluding point. It is not uncommon for serial killers to blame their parents, even when they haven't been abused (obviously many are). TK is a case in point.
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Fri May 20, 2011 9:30 pm

Just a reminder, tomorrow, Saturday night chat special on ZODE, 10pm eastern/7pm pacific time. A discussion on ZODE, what has been developed about him to date, ideas on how to move forward with dealing with him in the future, and Q&A with Katna9Q, a fellow classmate of ZODE's, and somebody that knows alot about him. Hope to see you all there. Very Happy
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Sun May 22, 2011 11:20 pm

In chat last night, KATANA made a really good point about something Zode stated in his letter to me.

Zode stated that he had not read the autobiography of Melvin Belli, nor did he read the part in the book about the Belli/Charles Ashman incident with a kid calling himself ZODIAC. In the autobiography, Belli stated that "Ashman was a Great promoter". Well when I received the typed letter from ZODE, Zode had written, he said that his Dean, Charles Ashman, "was an especially good promoter".

I find it highly unlikely that ZODE would use that same term that Belli used coincidentally. I think ZODE had definitely read the Belli book, and had lied about it to me. The question is, why??



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Nachtsider
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Mon May 23, 2011 1:23 am

I promised to offer my thoughts on the Belli incident, and I'll deliver.

My opinion is that Belli went to the university for reasons completely unrelated to Zodiac. Ashman may have told him about a student calling himself Zodiac, but I feel it was done only in passing/jestingly. Belli goes to the university and delivers his talk; Zode is present to listen to his idol, but Belli, of course, does not speak to him.

Belli, ever the showboater, later concocts a tale about being summoned by the police to the university for the purpose of questioning a potential Zodiac candidate. He pops this story into his book. Zode reads the book down the track and goes "Man, what an amazing scenario. How I wished my idol had spoken to me in such a way." He then fantasizes that the incident really happened, as a desire to look and feel important, and incorporates it into his conversation with morf.
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Mon May 23, 2011 9:12 am

Nachtsider wrote:
I promised to offer my thoughts on the Belli incident, and I'll deliver.

My opinion is that Belli went to the university for reasons completely unrelated to Zodiac. Ashman may have told him about a student calling himself Zodiac, but I feel it was done only in passing/jestingly. Belli goes to the university and delivers his talk; Zode is present to listen to his idol, but Belli, of course, does not speak to him.

Belli, ever the showboater, later concocts a tale about being summoned by the police to the university for the purpose of questioning a potential Zodiac candidate. He pops this story into his book. Zode reads the book down the track and goes "Man, what an amazing scenario. How I wished my idol had spoken to me in such a way." He then fantasizes that the incident really happened, as a desire to look and feel important, and incorporates it into his conversation with morf.

Zode did change his story and say that he shook hands with Belli, and that Belli did ask him about calling himself Z. So I simply dont know what to believe.
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Mon May 23, 2011 9:17 am

I confirmed that one of Zode's relatives lived on 12th st in San Fran, less than a mile from Washington & Cherry. And another person who is very likely a relative lived on Lombard in San Fran, which is very close to the presidio, the park & Jackson st. The only problem is that both of these people lived at those addresses AFTER 1969. But I wonder, the houses that they lived in after 1969, did they belong to relatives during 1969? That would be pretty powerful. The only way to know is to check old directories as well as property & deed records.
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katana9q
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PostSubject: Morf, In LE there is a saying "There is no such thing as a coincidence"! Katana9Q   Mon May 23, 2011 12:40 pm

morf13 wrote:
In chat last night, KATANA made a really good point about something Zode stated in his letter to me.

Zode stated that he had not read the autobiography of Melvin Belli, nor did he read the part in the book about the Belli/Charles Ashman incident with a kid calling himself ZODIAC. In the autobiography, Belli stated that "Ashman was a Great promoter". Well when I received the typed letter from ZODE, Zode had written, he said that his Dean, Charles Ashman, "was an especially good promoter".

I find it highly unlikely that ZODE would use that same term that Belli used coincidentally. I think ZODE had definitely read the Belli book, and had lied about it to me. The question is, why??



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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Mon May 30, 2011 10:43 pm

In the interest of clearing his name once and for all, and ending speculation that he was involved in the Z crimes, Zode called me tonight and we spoke for over an hour, he did most of the talking, me most of the listening. He seems like the kind of guy, based on what has been reported, that would be shy and not talk at all, but I find talking with Zode to be the opposite, I was lucky to get a word in. I get the feeling that Zode is just a lonely person with not many friends, who just wants someone to talk to.

First, and foremost, Zode says he would like to clear his name from discussion on Zodiac circles, and to help me do that, he sent me printed samples of his writing. He printed various phrases and sentences that I gave him, from various confirmed and unconfirmed Z letters. He also sent me two photos of himself, one from 1965 (which we have seen for the most part), and one from 1979. I requested one circa 68-71, but he told me he could not find any from then. These materials are in the mail, and I hope to have them in a day or two, and will be sure to post them here.

A recap of what we spoke about tonight, some of which was a rehash from things I have already posted on the forum about.

*Zode's physical features, about 5ft8-5ft9,weight has been as low as 140's and as high as 170's (never over 200 lbs). Shoesize, depending on the shoe or boot type, 8.5" to9".

*Recounted again for me how he was never successful with girls and never dated.

*Seemed to be really close with his parents, and from the sound of it, they pushed him to pursue a career as a lawyer, and he stated he wished he had told them at the time he was not cut out for it.

*Stated he did not drive at all until about 1972. He did not own a car, and if he went anyplace, his parents drove or he took public transportation.

*Reiterated that he did not wear glasses until after high school(i know Katana strongly disagrees with that)

* When I asked him about interest in hunting or guns, he stated he never hunted, and had little knowledge of guns, but pointed out that his Father had some "unregistered guns from AZ", and that they were handguns, that he never fired, and his Father rarely fired. They were sold a long time ago.

*He stated he never had relatives in San Fran, which is a direct contrast when he told me in the very first letter I got from him that he had a first cousin who lived and worked there for many years.

*As far as school Zode described himself as a loner. He said he was involved in the Audio/Video dept, and with the yearbook committee.

*He again told me about a place in Riverside called the ZODIAC GIFT SHOP.

*When I asked him if he was ever a member of the Sierra Club, he stated he was not and did not agree with their policies and beliefs.

*We again revisited the "Belli in Riverside" incident. Every time I speak with him about this, the story changes slightly in one way or another. He stated he resented Ashman for "using him" to get Belli to come to Riverside. He stated that a teacher brought him(zode) into the music room at the Riverside Library, and sat him down, when Belli was brought in and asked him about the Zodiac stuff. Zode insists no police were present, and that Belli knew he was not Zodiac. He said he was NEVER questioned by any cops about the Z case or any other crime, but he relayed a story of driving with a police officer (he gave me a name of the officer), and said that this Office knew about the Zodiac stuff, but did not question him about it.

* we were discussing friends and fellow classmates that he once had in school, andI asked him who his best friends were. He gave me one name, and that was it. He said he "knew" alot of people, but wasnt best friends with anybody, and that he was the type to have lunch quietly by himself.

The more I talk with him, the more I think he was not the Zodiac, and while he fits the Zodiac profile in some ways, I get the feeling he is a lonely person, who just wants some attention....but maybe the same was true of the Zodiac killer. On the other hand, he has clearly changed his story around multiple times, and Katana has clearly stated that some of what Zode said, simply is not true. Because of that, and because Zode admits he called himself Zodiac, I have to keep mind open to Zode being a suspect. I think the photos & writing he sends me may help alot. I have letters with his prints presumably on them, and if police ever wanted them, I would be glad to turn them over, although his prints are already on file with the state. Anyhow, I will certainly post the materials when I get them.

Even if Zode turns out NOT to be Z, I still think the possibility exists that Zodiac went to his school, or was ateacher, fellow student, janitor, etc, and knew about Zode calling himself Zodiac, and may have went on to use the persona. If Zode really and truly did say, "this is the Zodiac speaking", then there is simply no way that is a coincidence. Either he was Z, or someone that knew about Zode and his persona, took it for themselves.
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tahoe27
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Tue May 31, 2011 12:08 am

Wow Morf! Who'd a thunk?? I still think it was a great idea to go ahead and contact him!!

But this made me sad when I read it. Sad

He never dated, sat by himself at school. Our teenage years are rough enough, but to be alone...must have affected him. Does he need more pen-pals? Wink
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Nachtsider
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Tue May 31, 2011 1:50 am

I don't currently have time to address all the stuff you've brought to the table, morf, but I'd still like to know about one thing. The name of the school friend that he gave you; did it ring any bells, and do you propose to talk to this person?
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Tue May 31, 2011 8:45 am

Nachtsider wrote:
I don't currently have time to address all the stuff you've brought to the table, morf, but I'd still like to know about one thing. The name of the school friend that he gave you; did it ring any bells, and do you propose to talk to this person?

I will pm the name to you. Its not a name I ever heard before. He is in the yearbook with Zode, and was one grade behind him. The gut apprently lives in Colorado now.
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Tue May 31, 2011 12:51 pm

ZODE's printing samples:


I gave him the words & phrase to write. He says he can not print in lower case because he can not control the pen well, due to an injury or defect he had when he was born.

On this link about ZODE, http://groups.google.com/group/alt.true-crime/browse_thread/thread/575cc4b6e04f2f6/8d4f689f0ac4baea?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=zodiac+killer

His fellow classmate states that "He preferred to use wide soft pencils, and printed, rather than wrote, in a childish scrawl". The materials I have written by Zode, show just the opposite, that he writes in cursive much easier than he prints, and when he prints, he can only print in all caps, or so he claims.

Also in the link above, the classmate also writes: "The handwriting
found on a desk at San Bernardino Valley College, closely
resembled that of "Zode", which I saw once in a paper he
wrote about one of the girls in the class, and which outraged the
instructor to the point of threatening him that "if he ever wrote
anything like that again, he was going to call the police".

I dont know if the writer meant the desktop poem at RCC, or if there was another desktop writing on a desk at San Bernardino Valley college, but Zode DID go to San Bernardino County College.


Last edited by morf13 on Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:08 pm; edited 2 times in total
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Tue May 31, 2011 12:56 pm

And here is his pic from 1979, he said he has no pics from the 69-71 time period. This is grainy because it is a color copy of the original photo.

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StitchMallone
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Tue May 31, 2011 3:32 pm

Thanks Morf for the hard work but still think there is more to this guy and think he is telling half truths and holding back on certain issues when they come convenient for him to do so. Like having no pictures of himself from 69 to 71 and etc. Guess there isn't a whole much more to do about Zode unless you can find another witness to confirm Katana and the anonymous poster.
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Jem
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Fri Jun 03, 2011 12:47 am

Morf, a whole lot of letters look like they were first printed in lowercase, then written over or altered to make them uppercase. Especially in the last 3 lines - P, B, U, H, for example. And look at the last "e" in PLEASe!

I'm guessing he first copied the phrases using a mix of upper and lowercase. Then maybe was worried you'd think he wasn't being honest (about not being able to do lowercase) if you saw any lowercase letters, so went back and redrew the lowercase letters.

Well, he does sound like a guy who's probably very eager to please, from what you've related. Do you think so? Because, otherwise, it's sort of suspicious.



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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:59 am

Jem wrote:
Morf, a whole lot of letters look like they were first printed in lowercase, then written over or altered to make them uppercase. Especially in the last 3 lines - P, B, U, H, for example. And look at the last "e" in PLEASe!

I'm guessing he first copied the phrases using a mix of upper and lowercase. Then maybe was worried you'd think he wasn't being honest (about not being able to do lowercase) if you saw any lowercase letters, so went back and redrew the lowercase letters.

Well, he does sound like a guy who's probably very eager to please, from what you've related. Do you think so? Because, otherwise, it's sort of suspicious.




Wow Jem, good catch i see that e in the word help, differently looks like lower case. Again, the way he explained it was that printing at hall was difficult or painful, ESPECIALLY in lower case. I dont think he said it was impossible. Perhaps he wrote the lower case e and realized it didnt match all of the writing he had done in the rest.
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:03 am

I found something of interest that I want to share and gauge some opinions.

I have said that I believe it is possible that one of Zode's fellow classmates may have stolen Zodes ZODIAC character, and used it for is own when he started killing people in the bay area. If this is a possibility, and the Bates case is a possibility as being Z, then we have to have a suspect that had ties to the Riverside/San Bernardino area during the early to mid 1960's, and then was in the bay area during the Z murders. I stumbled upon a person that played KO-KO in a Mikado play in 1968 in the Bay area. (Of course we know, that Zodiac used several lines from the KoKo part of the Mikado, which made some researchers, and LE think that perhaps, Zodiac was affiliated in some way with KOKO or The Mikado.) The person that played KoKo in this bay area production, has a last name that is not overly common. I went back looking for more info on this guy, and thats when I found a student in a 1960 San Bernardino Jr High yearbook, that had the same first and last name as the person in the play. This student is also the same age as ZODE. The problem is that I cant find alot more details about either the student in the yearbook, nor the guy that was in the play, so I am having a hard time verifying if they are one and the same. But if they are, and this guy knew ZODE, and knew of Zode's ZODIAC persona, and wound up playing KoKo years later in the bay area, then that is worth looking at. You can see by the news article that the quality is poor, and in black and white, so details are hard to make out. In comparison, the yearbook pic is pretty easy to see. Personally, I think the kid in the yearbook looks a bit what Z may have looked like when he was in school....crew cut, red tint to his hair, etc. Of course, these two people may NOT be the same person, but I dont want to simply dismiss it until I can find out for sure. That is why I am posting this here in the hopes someone may be able to help dig a bit. So far, I can not place Zode, and this person in the same school, only that they were the same age, and in the same city at the same time. In the article below, I have removed the name of this person, but if anyone wants it, and wants to help dig a bit, please PM me.

1960 Yearbook pic:


1968 Article mentioning Ko-Ko and the Mikado, that states the actor shares the same uncommon last name as the kid in the yearbook photo:
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Zero
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:32 am

morf, that is fantastic! I think if Zodiac is ever identified it will be through research along those lines.

If the guy in the play is the same person as the kid in the photo, that would put him around 20-21 in '68-'69, at most. Seems pretty young to be Zodiac, but I guess anything is possible.

Your research skills are amazing!
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:28 am

Zero wrote:
morf, that is fantastic! I think if Zodiac is ever identified it will be through research along those lines.

If the guy in the play is the same person as the kid in the photo, that would put him around 20-21 in '68-'69, at most. Seems pretty young to be Zodiac, but I guess anything is possible.

Your research skills are amazing!

Yep, I agree, he would have been likely younger than Z really was. He actually would have been about 23 for the Z murders, the same age as ZODE. Again, I really feel personally that Z was older, but I just cant dismiss the fact ZODE called himself Zodiac and allegedly used the term "this is the Zodiac speaking". If that is true, the odds of somebody using that term years later during a killing spree, and not ever being familiar with ZODE, would have to be a million to one. Thats why I still find Zode so interesting, even if he was not the Zodiac killer.
I dont think Katana will mind me saying this, but HE KNEW the kid in the yearbook, although it was casually, not as friends that hung out.
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StitchMallone
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:11 pm

Forget we know anything about Zode and still think anyone who played KOKO in that area that fits the time frame is worth looking into. Nice find!
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:43 pm

StitchMallone wrote:
Forget we know anything about Zode and still think anyone who played KOKO in that area that fits the time frame is worth looking into. Nice find!

I recall reading someplace, that every person in a theater company or casr, in the bay area involved in any Mikado plays, were wondering if Z could be one of their own. Who knows, maybe this guy was brought up as a suspect by somebody, and police checked him and ruled him out.
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:14 pm

Zero wrote:
morf, that is fantastic! I think if Zodiac is ever identified it will be through research along those lines.

If the guy in the play is the same person as the kid in the photo, that would put him around 20-21 in '68-'69, at most. Seems pretty young to be Zodiac, but I guess anything is possible.

Your research skills are amazing!

I just talked to ZODE on the phone. I asked him if he ever remembered this kid as a friend or classmate of his, and he said "no". I believe him. He even went and got his yearbooks and looked thru them to be sure.
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Zero
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:41 pm

I'd be surprised if Z borrowed the Zodiac name and "this is the Zodiac speaking" line on purpose. It does seem like the kind of thing that you might hear once or twice and it would creep into your subconscious, though. Like some kids talking about a friend of a friend or that kind of thing. It could certainly happen in the same town among the same age group.

These are all very tenuous connections, but worth looking into, IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:50 pm

Zero wrote:
I'd be surprised if Z borrowed the Zodiac name and "this is the Zodiac speaking" line on purpose. It does seem like the kind of thing that you might hear once or twice and it would creep into your subconscious, though. Like some kids talking about a friend of a friend or that kind of thing. It could certainly happen in the same town among the same age group.

These are all very tenuous connections, but worth looking into, IMO.

Dont forget, I cant out my finger on it, but there is some connection to Z in the Riverside/San Bernardino area, even if it is only a coincidence.

Where was Bates killed?? RIVERSIDE

Where were taunting Z-like letters mailed from after the Bates murder? RIVERSIDE

Where was the desktop poem with writing on it that was confirmed to be Zodiac's? RIVERSIDE

Where was Cecelia going to school at?? RIVERSIDE

Where was Johns driving from when she was attacked? SAN BERNARDINO

Where did ZODE create his Zodiac persona, and use the phrase, "THIS IS THE ZODIAC SPEAKING"? SAN BERNARDINO

Again, perhaps this is coincidence, but I doubt it.

Enough to make your head spin.....

In Darlene Ferrin's address book, she had an address for a person that lived at 421 Leavenworth in SanFran. This is right off of GEARY, which is the area Z was likely picked up by Stine. AFTER the Z murders, the person named in Darlene's address book, along with her Husband, moved to SAN BERNARDINO. (or at least there was a couple down there with the same names)


Last edited by morf13 on Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:21 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Zero
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PostSubject: Re: "ZODE" from Pacific High School in San Bernardino   Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:13 pm

Yeah, I was just thinking about that.

Assuming Bates was a Zodiac crime and assuming he would have been ZODE's age that would make him around 19-21 in 1966, right? About the right age to be taking community college classes.

Later our guy goes up north to the San Francisco area for some reason. He's a little bit older and a little bit wiser and feeling the sting of loserdom in his early 20's and commits the Zodiac killings.

It would also line up the descriptions of some of the Zodiac witnesses. Hartnell thought Z was in his 20's, the kids at PH said 25-30 I think (kids think anyone over 18 is ancient), Nancy Slover said he sounded young.

All this would also explain why Z was able escape detection. He was a bit younger and from a different area than most people thought.

It seems rational to me.
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