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 Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest

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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:16 am

tahoe27 wrote:
AK Wilks wrote:
Almost certainly the Zodiac did kill Bates. That is what SFPD and Cal DOJ thought, and it is what the evidence shows.
Mmmm...I beg to differ with you here.

"Almost certainly??" Evidence? Really no proof at all. The letters don't prove it either and LE who oversaw Cheri's case never did and from what I have read, still don't think it was Zodiac, even aside of their "local" boy.

To dismiss a suspect because he couldn't have killed Cheri? Ugh. Wink

Tahoe,

Just wanted to take a quick moment to thank you for your support! It seems to me that you, as well as others, have been diligently looking for the Zodiac for a long time. Hope it won't be too much longer!

Madame X
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:50 am

To All,

Well, I think that pretty much wraps it up. I think that I have shared here a lot more than I had origianlly intended to. But, I would like to thank you all for your comments and questions.

So, here, I rest my case!

Madame X
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Sun Apr 18, 2010 4:27 am

Thanks Madame for sharing what were certainly painful memories. I'm sure that one day you will discover just where your ex got off to till 4am all those nights, and where all that cash went. And that the answer may well link that person to dark deeds.

Your posts have given us lots to ponder. .......And just as a side-note, I agree that the Bride of Zodiac would most likely NOT know of her husband's (former) exploits (just like Mrs Ridgway, Mrs Rader and, I'm sure, many other wives of secretive monsters).

Good to know that you came up with a winner on love's Wheel Of Fortune this time around.
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:04 am

RTF,

I was hoping to hear from you one last time. That is a positive note to end on.

Madame X
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:15 am

Madame X wrote:
To All,

Well, I think that pretty much wraps it up. I think that I have shared here a lot more than I had origianlly intended to. But, I would like to thank you all for your comments and questions.

So, here, I rest my case!

Madame X

I hope that this is not a resignation letter Very Happy
I hope you will continue to stay on and posts, and bring some things to the table. Who knows, maybe some new clues you discover will help you rule your POI in or out as Zodiac
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:49 am

Dear MadameX,
When I read your story the first and second time, I really felt for you and your pain. I can totally see how you would suspect your Ex, due to some strange possibilities with the Z case. I'm not an expert so I can't rule people in or out.... I just continue to read and look at all evidence. Your Ex definably was a strange guy. Like I would say to anyone here, continue on with your search... it could lead you to your POI, or it could lead you to a different POI, but all in all we are all working towards the same thing, to find clews and information that would really make one POI stand out as the Z.
I would like to encourage You, NOT to let your Ex keep you away from your family. I hope you can find the strength to look fear in it's eye, and do Your Thing......... do NOT go into hiding from your EX, instead...be around and see your children and grandchildren as much as possible...that's my wish for you...and to be happy with KISA, sounds like you won the lucky husband lotto on that one* Be Thankful Everyday!
Hugs, your pal Zam*
PZ........ keep up with your Z search, you never know who or where it will lead. And even if your EX was not the Z, he did some strange things...makes me wonder who he hung with, and if his path could of crossed with the Z's ??? <-- Something to ponder, someone has to have known the Z ??? So, one of these stories like yours could just very well hold the answer. So I encourage everyone to tell their story.
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:32 pm



Posted by request, one of the Napa composites.

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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:07 pm

Thanks AK for down loading an posting this for Madam EX. I was privy to see pic's of her EX. And I can tell you there is a resemblance.
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:22 pm

morf13 wrote:
Madame X wrote:
To All,

Well, I think that pretty much wraps it up. I think that I have shared here a lot more than I had origianlly intended to. But, I would like to thank you all for your comments and questions.

So, here, I rest my case!

Madame X

I hope that this is not a resignation letter Very Happy
I hope you will continue to stay on and posts, and bring some things to the table. Who knows, maybe some new clues you discover will help you rule your POI in or out as Zodiac

Morf,

Thanks for your hospitality. I will be sure to stop in and check on you, Zam and the gang from time to time.

Madame X
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Tue May 04, 2010 3:50 pm

I have hesitated for a while to respond to Mr. Wilk's post. For one reason, Mr. Wilks is a moderator on this site. So, I don't feel that it will do my case any good to disagree with him here. But, if I don't, my case is "dead in the water". At the same time, I would like to say that on all other topics, I see Mr. Wilks as being intelligent, knowledgeable and fair minded. Regardless of our differences of oppinion here, I do think that he is a credible, highly respected, Z researcher.

Wilks: We know that the Stine sketch is the Zodiac. It is impossible for your POI to be the man depicted in the Stine and Sonoma sketches, or to be the man seen by Johns. Therefor, it is impossible for him to be the Zodiac.

Madame X: Mr. Wilks places a great deal of confidence in the Stine Sketch. I dont know who Mr. Wilks is, but I believe that he may have been involved in the case for a long time, maybe even from the beginning. It is even possible that he was or is a dedicated member of a LE agency who has been pursuing the Zodiac based on the Stine Sketch. If that is the case, then, it would be completely understandable why he would not be able to see beyond that sketch or to see the Zodiac as any one other than a blond-haired, blue-eyed, caucasian.

Unfortuneately, the person who gave us the description that lead to the original Napa Composite drawing, Cecilia Shepard, is dead. But, BH, who is still alive, also described the Z as having dark, brown hair. And, MM described Z as having dark brown hair combed up into a pompadour. And, other witnesses also described the Z as having dark, brown hair. So, I don't think that anyone can be ruled out simply based on the fact that he looks like the person in the Napa Composite Drawing rather than the Stine Sketch.

Wilks: Almost certainly the Zodiac did kill Bates. That is what SFPD and Cal DOJ thought, and it is what the evidence shows. And it is impossible for your POI to have done that. Even in the slight chance that Zodiac did not kill Bates, he certainly wrote the materials, and it would have been impossible for your POI to have done even that. And it would have been impossible for your POI to have done the 1963 murder.

Madame X: Actually, there are a couple of other viable suspects in the Bates murder including Bruce Davis and Zode. So, I am not the only one who questions whether or not the Zodiac killed Bates.

Wilks: The DNA you gave me does not match the DNA I know from some unsolved murders in which Z is a suspect.

Madame X: Here, Mr. Wilks said that the DNA that I gave him did not match the DNA from some unsolved murders in which Z is a suspect. In my defense, I would like to say that Mr. Wilks had PM'ed me earlier and asked for my POI's DNA so that he could compare it to the DNA from several unsolved murders, including murdered couples in California, to see if he could come up with a match.

So, of course, I sent him my DNA analysis from my POI. It was a long shot, but I felt that if we could find a match, it would strengthen my case. At the same time, I have no idea who these couples are. I am supposing that they weren't couples that would be considered "known Zodiac victims" or even "possible Zodiac victims." And, I think it is worth mentioning that the DNA definitely did not come from the Zodiac letters.

It is only a guess, but I would assume that this DNA came from DNA found at some of the crime scenes from the Original Nigh Stalker. (See POSSIBLE CONNECTION BETWEEN ZODIAK AND EAR/ONS.)

I also don't have any idea where they found the suspect's DNA on these couples unless he raped the women (definitely not Zodiac) or left some other type of physical evidence with his DNA behind such as a drinking glass that he had used? So, not knowing the circumstances, I would even question whether the DNA actually belonged to their POI???

While I appreciated Mr. Wilk's offer, on the surface, it looks as though he had compared my POI's DNA to the Zodiac's DNA and found that they didn't match. This would indicate that I was willing to continue my persuit out of bitterness or some other motive.

Wilks: If your POI was Z, you would have seen evidence of an interest in codes, bombs and the case. You report none of those things...

Madam X: As I have said before, my ex was and is a big fake. It would not have taken much for him to have copied a bomb sketch from a book. And, I think that Graysmith proved the possibility that Z could have copied the codes from a book as well. (How many other killers have even copied the Zodiac?)

Another poster mentioned some sayings that the Z had used. I never knew my ex to use these exact phrases, but I would not put it past him. He is the kind of person who typically speaks in cliches - over used, worn our phrases - that he would pick up. (I am sure that most of use know of a shallow person like that.) It was stange, but I remember a time when he would come home with a different laugh every few weeks. Before that, I had thought that a person's laugh was their own personal identifier. After that, I realized that I really didn't know who he was. I guess it was what made him "hip" or "cool".

Wilks: I know you have been haunted by this, and have spent a lot of time and money on it. I commend you for posting the information and for asking people like me for our opinions. I can only advise you to take a step back, consider what I am saying and look at the facts.[/quote]

Madame X: He said in another post that I was trying to send an innocent person to prison. Nothing could be further from the truth! That makes it sound as though my POI is an innocent victim and I am the criminal! If my ex is truly the Zodiac, then he has murdered dozens of innocent people, along with the crimes that he has committed against me and my family. I am the one trying to have him investigated, which involves great risk to myself and my family. (Doesn't that make me one of the good guys?)


Last edited by Madame X on Tue May 04, 2010 10:54 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Grammar)
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Tue May 04, 2010 5:28 pm

AK should have said that the man they saw the night of Stine's murder was MOST CERTAINLY Zodiac, and that there is a GOOD CHANCE that Johns was abducted by Zodiac.

You are free to argue your case for your POI, and I dont think AK meant to make you feel uncomfortable posting about your POI. He simply doesnt agree with you.

From my standpoint, I have to agree with AK, I just think that your POI wouldnt have had the emotional maturity or smarts to outwit police at the age your POI was during the Z attacks. Forget for a second the possibility that Z was in southern CA for the Bates case, (your POI wasnt there, and would definitely be too young)as I mentioned above there is a very high likelihood that the police and witnesses at the Stine scene that night saw Zodiac, and based on their descriptions, your POI could not be Zodiac.

I do hope you will continue to post on the forum, but I would have to say that your POI material seems to be exhausted. I still have not heard a real reason for you to suspect your POI. Besides living in the area during the Z attacks (like thousands of other people), what else do you have that makes you suspicious?

Weapons, bloody shirt pieces, letters, newspaper articles about Z? Any of that?
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Tue May 04, 2010 6:43 pm

Madame X

I am glad you responded to my post and I will take the time to respond to you. You are welcome to post here as much as you want on this subject or other subjects. I have read your posts on other Zodiac issues and I think you are very intelligent. So please continue to post on this subject and any other subject. You might also consider posting info on your POI at Mike Butterfields site www.zodiackillerfacts.com . Perhaps someone will have a different take on it.

MX: I have hesitated for a while to respond to Mr. Wilk's post. For one reason, Mr. Wilks is a moderator on this site. So, I don't feel that it will do my case any good to disagree with him here. But, if I don't, my case is "dead in the water". At the same time, I would like to say that on all other topics, I see Mr. Wilks as being intelligent, knowledgeable and fair minded. Regardless of our differences of oppinion here, I do think that he is a credible, highly respected, Z researcher.

AKWilks: Thank you. I am an attorney with some prior law enforcement background. But I was not an investigator on the Zodiac case, though I have been interested in it for a long time. I have developed a few good contacts with Zodiac investigators.

And - this goes for everyone - just because I am a mod, please don't worry about criticizing me. Criticize away! In fact, i wish more people would post on my Kaczynski and other threads, pro and con. Lets debate and discuss. We all make mistakes. Some prior criticisms have helped shape my research.


Wilks: We know that the Stine sketch is the Zodiac. It is impossible for your POI to be the man depicted in the Stine and Sonoma sketches, or to be the man seen by Johns. Therefor, it is impossible for him to be the Zodiac.

Madame X: Mr. Wilks places a great deal of confidence in the Stine Sketch. I dont know who Mr. Wilks is, but I believe that he may have been involved in the case for a long time, maybe even from the beginning. It is even possible that he was or is a dedicated member of a LE agency who has been pursuing the Zodiac based on the Stine Sketch. If that is the case, then, it would be completely understandable why he would not be able to see beyond that sketch or to see the Zodiac as any one other than a blond-haired, blue-eyed, caucasian.

Unfortuneately, the person who gave us the description that lead to the original Napa Composite drawing, Cecilia Shepard, is dead. But, BH, who is still alive, also described the Z as having dark, brown hair. And, MM described Z as having dark brown hair combed up into a pompadour. And, other witnesses also described the Z as having dark, brown hair. So, I don't think that anyone can be ruled out simply based on the fact that he looks like the person in the Napa Composite Drawing rather than the Stine Sketch.

AKWilks: The Napa composite does NOT come from Cecilia Shepherd. It comes from some college girls at the lake who saw a man watching them while they were sunbathing in their bikini's. We simply do not know if this man was the Zodiac. But we do know with 100% certainty that the man seen inside the cab by the three teens in SF was the Zodiac. Of that there is no realistic doubt.

Based on the picture you sent me, I do not think there is any realistic chance your POI could be the man seen by the teens. First, the age is way off. The teens thought the man they saw was around 30 (they said 25 to 35) and Officer Fouke said 30 to 40. I agree with what you said about age estimates being less than relaible. So we are talking about Zodiac being around 28 to 32 based on these estimates, give or take a year or two. But nobody said Zodiac looked like a teenager. Your POI was 18 or 19 at the time, and he looks his age - in fact he looks younger than his actual age, he looks around 16 or 17 to me. So, simply based on age, I find it very difficult to think your POI could be Zodiac...but would agree he shouldn't be totally ruled out on age alone.

The second factor is your POI has dark hair and dark/tan complected face. Based on his picture, I thought he was Mexican, Hispanic or perhaps southern Italian/Sicilian. The man who killed Stine, who we know is the Zodiac, was described as white, caucasian, fair complected, dirty blonde to light brown hair. The man at Napa - who may or may NOT be the Zodiac - did have dark hair. But none of the many descriptions of Zodiac (Napa, SF, Johns, Mageau, others) ever said anything about him looking Mexican, Latin, Italian or otherwise dark complected. Therefor, in my opinion, your POI cannot be the man who killed Stine, and therefor he was not the Zodiac.


Wilks: Almost certainly the Zodiac did kill Bates. That is what SFPD and Cal DOJ thought, and it is what the evidence shows. And it is impossible for your POI to have done that. Even in the slight chance that Zodiac did not kill Bates, he certainly wrote the materials, and it would have been impossible for your POI to have done even that. And it would have been impossible for your POI to have done the 1963 murder.

Madame X: Actually, there are a couple of other viable suspects in the Bates murder including Bruce Davis and Zode. So, I am not the only one who questions whether or not the Zodiac killed Bates.

AKWilks: In my opinion, and the opinion of Inspector Toschi, the Cal DOJ and others I have talked to in law enforcement, Zodiac most likely did kill Bates and almost certainly wrote the materials. Either would rule out your POI.

Wilks: The DNA you gave me does not match the DNA I know from some unsolved murders in which Z is a suspect.

Madame X: Here, Mr. Wilks said that the DNA that I gave him did not match the DNA from some unsolved murders in which Z is a suspect. In my defense, I would like to say that Mr. Wilks had PM'ed me earlier and asked for my POI's DNA so that he could compare it to the DNA from several unsolved murders, including murdered couples in California, to see if he could come up with a match.

So, of course, I sent him my DNA analysis from my POI. It was a long shot, but I felt that if we could find a match, it would strengthen my case. At the same time, I have no idea who these couples are. I am supposing that they weren't couples that would be considered "known Zodiac victims" or even "possible Zodiac victims." And, I think it is worth mentioning that the DNA definitely did not come from the Zodiac letters.

It is only a guess, but I would assume that this DNA came from DNA found at some of the crime scenes from the Original Nigh Stalker. (See POSSIBLE CONNECTION BETWEEN ZODIAK AND EAR/ONS.)

I also don't have any idea where they found the suspect's DNA on these couples unless he raped the women (definitely not Zodiac) or left some other type of physical evidence with his DNA behind such as a drinking glass that he had used? So, not knowing the circumstances, I would even question whether the DNA actually belonged to their POI???

While I appreciated Mr. Wilk's offer, on the surface, it looks as though he had compared my POI's DNA to the Zodiac's DNA and found that they didn't match. This would indicate that I was willing to continue my persuit out of bitterness or some other motive.

AKWilks: I do NOT know the possible Zodiac DNA that SFPD has - they share that with nobody, not even other law enforcement agencies. The DNA you sent me does not match some DNA I have knowledge of in which Zodiac is regarded by some as a suspect. I am not implying you are maintaining your pursuit out of spite or any other motive. I know you have an honest belief that your POI could ve the Zodiac. I commend you for your research and coming forward. You asked for my honest opinions and thoughts and that is what I have gven.

Wilks: If your POI was Z, you would have seen evidence of an interest in codes, bombs and the case. You report none of those things...

Madam X: As I have said before, my ex was and is a big fake. It would not have taken much for him to have copied a bomb sketch from a book. And, I think that Graysmith proved the possibility that Z could have copied the codes from a book as well. (How many other killers have even copied the Zodiac?)

Another poster mentioned some sayings that the Z had used. I never knew my ex to use these exact phrases, but I would not put it past him. He is the kind of person who typically speaks in cliches - over used, worn our phrases - that he would pick up. (I am sure that most of use know of a shallow person like that.) It was stange, but I remember a time when he would come home with a different laugh every few weeks. Before that, I had thought that a person's laugh was their own personal identifier. After that, I realized that I really didn't know who he was. I guess it was what made him "hip" or "cool".

AKWilks: If your POI showed an interest in codes, bombs, the Mikado, used Zodiac words and phrases...those would all be facts to lend suspicion. The fact that none of those are present is interesting. I really have never understood a clear reason from you why you think he could be Zodiac, when so many things don't match up, and he never talked about the case.

Wilks: I know you have been haunted by this, and have spent a lot of time and money on it. I commend you for posting the information and for asking people like me for our opinions. I can only advise you to take a step back, consider what I am saying and look at the facts.[/quote]

Madame X: He said in another post that I was trying to send an innocent person to prison. Nothing could be further from the truth! That makes it sound as though my POI is an innocent victim and I am the criminal! But, nothing could be further from the truth! If my ex is truly the Zodiac, then he has murdered dozens of innocent people, along with the crimes that he has committed against me and my family. I am the one trying to have him investigated, which involves great risk to myself and my family. (Doesn't that make me one of the good guys?)

AKWilks: I don't think I ever said you were trying to send an innocent man to prison!

I commend you for your research and coming forward. But your POI, like every POI, is innocent until proven guilty, and this man has no prior criminal record, and the known facts do not seem to match up with Zodiac. I only ask you to look at all the facts and consider what I and Morf have told you.
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Tue May 04, 2010 7:59 pm

I'm convinced that Z was between 35-45. Foukes said that Z might have had gray hair on the sides and back; Z called his victims, "boys"; he fancied Gilbert and Sullivan (not what typical teenagers listened to in 1969-70); he couldn't draw a peace sign to save his life (I've never seen a more tortured way to make a peace sign); and he used old-fashioned terms, like boughten and stove oil. He was no teenager, IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Tue May 04, 2010 8:19 pm

Mr. Wilks,

Well, as Morf said, I have exhausted this subject. (And, I am exhausted too!) I only wrote again because I had been turned down for help and felt it was possibly because I had not answered some of your objections. (Boy, what a laugh the Z must be having at my expense!)

I appreciate your response and respect your oppinions. At the same time, I have not changed mine. And, do not know where to turn next. As you know, most hosts are not as gentlemanly with people who disagree with their theories as you and Morf have been.

Here is your quote, "Also, your POI is a real person and you are accusing him of mass murder and asking police to spend time investigating him. So I have an obligation to be honest. And this board has a legal obligation to be truthful..."

Sorry, I did mean to go back and quote you verbatum, but it slipped my mind.




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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Tue May 04, 2010 10:48 pm

I've asked this before but didn't get an answer. Madame X: Please give me your three best reasons why you believe your suspect was Z?
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Wed May 05, 2010 1:35 am

Rand,

In regard to your previous post, I would agree that the Mikado was not a typical selection for a young man. (My ex was nearly 20 by the time that the Z wrote his "Little List" letter.)

But, the 60's were a bit of a transitional time. Teens were just beginning to rebel against their parents and the lines were just being drawn. As little kids, we would watch the Flintstones or Disney before going to bed. But, as we got older, teens shared many of the same activities as their parents. I can remember watching musicals with my mom and westerns with my dad. I guess a good example would be Richard Burton's family on the night that BLJ and DF were shot. He and his family were celebrating someone's birthday by watching a Bob Hope movie together.

Also, the fact that the Mikado was playing in San Francisco (forgot the name of the theatre) on Geary Street (where Stine picked up his fare) would make it a pretty enjoyable outing even for a young man.

Anyway, I do appologize that your next question got lost in the shuffle. You wanted to know what were my three main reasons for believing that my ex is the Zodiac. And, to be honest, I can't really choose one over another. So, I will choose three reasons that I have not repeated as frequently, for the sake of any possible readers.

First, is the fact that he fits the psychological profile in that as a young boy, he was abandoned by his mom. (Not to mention that he had three stressors the year that BLJ was killed.) I have read several books either about serial killers or about profilers and abandonment is a big issue.

Second is the fact that through out our marriage, he lived a double life and spent a lot of money. As I said before, the average married man has some accountability. But, for 23 years, I didn't know where he was or what he was up to half of the time. (Add to that the fact that he lived in the area, looked like the suspect and drove the same kind of car, and I suppose that you can see why I would be suspicious.)

Third, (well I guess I have "kicked" this one around a couple of times) is the fact that he didn't talk about it. Maybe that doesn't seem odd to most people. But, I lived off of LHR. Yet, he never mentioned to me that one of his class mates had been murdered there. I can remember taking our kids to Blue Rock Springs year after year for picnics, birthdays and holidays. Yet, he never mentioned to me that two young people had been killed there as well. And, we must have gone to LB hundreds of times during our courtship and marriage to go swimming, fishing, boating, camping or picnicing. Yet, he never mentioned that a young couple had been stabbed there either.

Perhaps it would help if I were to mention a reason that I have only touched on briefly here. (I do realize that this one makes four, but I decided to throw it in anyway.) But, there is also the issue of the hood. I realize that most people here believe that the Zodiac's hood was either made by hand from fabric (BH) or that it was a paper sack that had been painted black. But, Cecilia Shephard said, just before she died, that it was a welding hood. (You can read the article that this was quoted from on this thread under DESCRIPTION.)

I thought that this was interesting since my ex's step-father worked at Mare Island as a welder. So, I mentioned it to my husband, KISA. We happened to be staying at a shipyard at the time where he was working. So, he left and a few minutes later, he came back with an old-fasioned welding hood that would have been used in a shipyard that fit the description that BH and CS had given. The one he showed me had two pieces that were made from dark, brownish-blackish leather. The first piece was a hood in the shape of a large paper bag. It also had a rectangular cut out for the eyes with a visor over it. The second piece was similar to a bib or dickey (BH) that was used to protect the welder's chest and arms from the sparks.

I have tried to get a pictureof one from the internet. Modern welder's hoods are very different and look more like motorcycle helmets. I did find a picture of one that was similar, but I never found one that was quite like the one that KISA showed me.

I once watched a Cloris Leachman movie - sorry, but I can't remember the name - where Cloris is called in as a juror during a murder trial. And, interestingly, one of the pieces of evidence is an unusual scarf. She immediately recognizes it as one that she had given to her husband as a gift. At first she doesn't believe the implication. So, she goes home nad begins searching the closet for the scarf that she had given him to no avail. After that, her husband begins to act very strangely and she begins to do some investigating on her own. Only to find that her husband had killed his mistress. For me, watching the first Zodiac movie was kind of my "scarf moment", where I sat in the living room with my hand over my mouth.

There are so many things that happened during the Zodiac's major crime spree that lineup with my ex, that the odds alone would suggest that he is the Zodiac. There are some things that did or didn't happen afterwards as well. For example, if my ex had ever been arrested, he would have been ruled out by his fingerprints. And, if the real Zodiac had died, his "storage unit" with all of his trophies would have been discovered. The way that he treated me through out our marriage would suggest to me that he is a sociopath and that he is incapable of giving or receiving love. And, the fact that he stalked KISA and I in a very similar manor to the way that the Z stalked DF and MM also suggests to me that he is the Z. And, the fact that my ex did not deny that he was the Z when asked point blank, would also suggest to me that he is the Z.

So, Rand, I hope that answers your question. And, I appologize again for missing it the first time around.

Madame X
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rand
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Join date : 2010-04-03

PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Wed May 05, 2010 1:59 am

Thanks for answering my question, Madame X. You seem like a nice person. But, alas, my honest response is that your three reasons don't make even a weak case that your ex was Z.

First, there's no evidence that Z was abandoned by his mother. And if there was, ask yourself: how many people in the Bay Area, much less California, were abandoned by their mothers? Thousands? 10s of thousands?

Second, how many people in CA lived a double life? Spent more money than they should have and didn't tell their wives about it? Why are these characteristics associated with the Zodiac?

Third, how many people didn't talk about the LHR murders? It may seem strange that one of his classmates was murdered and he didn't talk about it. It may show that he was callously indifferent to others' suffering. But why is this a good reason to suspect that he was the Zodiac? There are lots of bad people in the world. It doesn't mean that they are serial killers, much less the Zodiac.

As for the welder's mask, I haven't heard that story. It certainly isn't what Hartnell said about what Z was wearing, and he, of all people, would know. And even if we concede your point, how does that incriminate your ex-husband? There are plenty of welders in the Bay Area. Plenty of people who would have access to a welder's mask.

These are very flimsy and, quite frankly, strange reasons why someone would confidently suspect that their ex-husband was Z. I think you should look into your suspicions and try to uncover what it is that makes you believe what you're saying. Your ex might very well have been a bad husband and a bad person, but there is nothing that you've told us that, IMO, makes him a credible Z suspect. And on top of all this, he doesn't fit Z's description in the slightest. Please don't take offense; these are my honest thoughts on the matter.
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Wed May 05, 2010 6:45 pm

Rand,

As you are probably aware, Morf feels that I have exhausted this subject and I agree. So, I will answer your post, and any others as a matter of courtesy. But, as far as adding new posts, by rehashing old information, I will refrain from doing that. I plan to only add new posts if I come acrosss some new and exciting information.

Having said that, I would like to thank you for taking the time to share your oppinion with me and the rest of the people here at this site. I am not offended in the least and welcome a little debate when it is done in a spirit of respect. (As Mr. Wilks pointed out, a good debate is necessary to keep a topic going.) Posting here has even helped me to understand what I am up against with LE, since typically, they don't tell you what they are thinking. But, I am also aware that "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." So, I have no notion that I will be able to change anyone's opinion here now or in the future.

rand wrote:
Thanks for answering my question, Madame X. You seem like a nice person. But, alas, my honest response is that your three reasons don't make even a weak case that your ex was Z.

Madame X: You say that I have presented a weak case. And, I guess that remains to be seen. If you isolate any single piece of information, I guess it would be weak. But, taking everything together narrows the odds considerably. (At the same time, I sure wish I had the ability to follow my ex around for a few days, see where he goes and be able to offer a solid piece of evidence like Paul Stine's glasses. But, that doesn't seem to be possible. On the other hand, I was hoping that his handwriting, fingerprints and DNA would count.

First, there's no evidence that Z was abandoned by his mother. And if there was, ask yourself: how many people in the Bay Area, much less California, were abandoned by their mothers? Thousands? 10s of thousands?

Madame X: As I said, many modern day psychopaths or sociopaths have abandonment issues. I think that FBI Profilers have shown this to be true. It is sad that so many children today have been abandoned by one or both of their parents. At the same time, when family units were strong, serial killers were few and far between. Today, there are as many as 30 serial killers out roaming the streets at any given time in the U.S. Still, it is a matter of choice and a person who has been abandoned can still make the right choices. But, if someone did want to raise a serial killer, abandonment would be a good place to start.

Rand: Second, how many people in CA lived a double life? Spent more money than they should have and didn't tell their wives about it? Why are these characteristics associated with the Zodiac?

Madame X: As I said before, I don't believe that my ex is the Zodiac because he did these things. I just don't believe that he's isn't the Zodiac because of these things. In other words, his life style doesn't necessarily convict him. But, neither does it offer him a good defense.

Third, how many people didn't talk about the LHR murders? It may seem strange that one of his classmates was murdered and he didn't talk about it. It may show that he was callously indifferent to others' suffering. But why is this a good reason to suspect that he was the Zodiac? There are lots of bad people in the world. It doesn't mean that they are serial killers, much less the Zodiac.

Madame X: Sure, that alone probably wouldn't get him convicted in a court of law. But, as I said before, add that to the fact that he matched the Napa Composite Drawing, drove a white Chevy Impala, fits the descriptions given by witnesses and lived in the area. Besides that, his handwriting matched the Z's and his name is in two of the codes. So, I believe there is sufficient information there to at least begin an investigation.

Rand: As for the welder's mask, I haven't heard that story. It certainly isn't what Hartnell said about what Z was wearing, and he, of all people, would know. And even if we concede your point, how does that incriminate your ex-husband? There are plenty of welders in the Bay Area. Plenty of people who would have access to a welder's mask.

Madame X: Here is a copy of part of the article concerning the welder's hood. Sorry, but I don't have the full article:

The Zodiac’s Black Hood may have been a Welding Hood:
“Narlow was among the first to respond in September 1969 when the Zodiac stabbed two college students picnicking at Lake Berryessa. Though stabbed five times, Bryan Hartnell, 20, survived. Cecelia Shepard, 22, did not.

“But before she died, she was able to give detective Dave Collins a brief description of Zodiac. “She said he had the hood on, he put the hood on, and there weren’t eye holes,” recalled Collins in a recent interview. “Instead it was like a welder’s mask, an opening in the front of the mask itself.

“Hartnell told investigators that Zodiac wore a costume, on the front of which was a circle with a cross through it, identical to the drawings Zodiac had included in some of his letters.” (Probably from the Napa Valley Register.)

Bryan said in a in an interview that the costume had two parts and that the second part was like a dickey, which was a turtle neck collar with two panels hanging down that would typically go under a shirt. This could also further describe a welding hood.

Rand: These are very flimsy and, quite frankly, strange reasons why someone would confidently suspect that their ex-husband was Z. I think you should look into your suspicions and try to uncover what it is that makes you believe what you're saying. Your ex might very well have been a bad husband and a bad person, but there is nothing that you've told us that, IMO, makes him a credible Z suspect. And on top of all this, he doesn't fit Z's description in the slightest. Please don't take offense; these are my honest thoughts on the matter.

Madame X: Lastly, I am not sure how you can be so certain that my ex does not fit Z's description, since you have not seen his picture. (Sorry, but I can't post it here.) But, if what you are saying is that he doesn't match the SF Sketch, that is true. But, he does match the Napa Composite Drawing as well as many of the descriptions given by witnesses.
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Azazel
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Posts : 236
Join date : 2010-03-31
Location : Limbo

PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Fri May 07, 2010 7:04 pm

Madame X, dont be discouraged.
Any lead is a better lead than no lead at all.
So far as I know the Zodiac is still at large.
Sometimes the composite is a clear match when the offender is caught.
Sometimes it doesnt. There is a high probability that ithe Stine murderer resembles the composite made at that scene.
There is no clear answer if Z was one or 2 or any number of people.
The higher the number the less probability that it would still be a secret.
There is no definitive colour of hair. No clear weight or even size.
Well, he wasnt a midget or had two peglegs. As far as I know Cool
He wasnt a girl. The compoites doesnt match eatch other, though one was only of a suspicious man around a crime scene I believe.
Other than that there isnt that much that is definitive.
Its counterproductive to point at composites as a sure way to eliminate a suspect of being involved.
I must admit I havent read through all your posts madame X, but I find the part about an old-fasioned welding hood intresting.
I dont think I´ve heard about that possibilty before.
I found some photos online and they sure come in all shapes and forms.
Anyway. I only wanted to give my support. Any information is better information than no information.
Somewhere someone might find something worthwhile. Regardless if this is Z or not.
So keep it coming.
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Wed May 12, 2010 5:21 pm

Azazel:

Thanks for coming out of limbo to make your post! Who knows, perhaps some new evidence will turn up some day. In the mean time, we can learn all that we can. And, as Zam says, go out and catch that Zodiac!! Thanks for the kind words!

Madame X
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Today at 9:51 pm

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