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 Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest

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PostSubject: THE ODDS   Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:39 pm

The following post pretty much completes my posts concerning the identity of my POI - at least for now. In the mean time, I look forward to hearing your responses and will answer them to the best of my ability as time allows:

The Odds…

Coming up with a basic profile of the Zodiac is important for several reasons. Using that information can narrow down the pool of possible suspects as in the following example.

Evidently, the Zodiac lived in the bay area between December 20, 1968, when David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen were shot and killed on Lake Herman Road in Benicia, and March 13, 1971, when he sent his sixteenth letter to the LA Times, which was post marked from Pleasanton. It is also likely that he was still in the bay area on January 29, 1974 when he sent the “Exorcist” letter, which was post marked from San Francisco, claiming that he had killed 37 people.

According to Dr. Kim Rossmo, Research Professor at the Department of Criminal Justice at Texas State University, by using Rigel, a geographical profiling system, he was able to determine that the Zodiac probably lived either in the North West area of Vallejo, somewhere near Mare Island or in Benicia. (My POI actually lived in the center of these three areas.)
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Dr. Rossmo went on to say that “twenty-six thousand people lived in Vallejo at that time of which thirteen-thousand were males. And of which only a certain portion of those would be of the correct age. And, only a certain percentage of those will be white… We actually have a pretty small subset. And, we start combining that with some of the personal and behavioral descriptions and then we work in the vehicle information. If the case was active today, it would not be too difficult to find this person.”

So, we know that there were 26-thousand people living in Vallejo at that time. And that approximately half of those were males, or 13 thousand. Using national averages, we can assume that approximately 26% of those men were between the ages of 20 and 30, or 3380 men. Of those men, 23% were African American. And, since witnesses said that the Zodiac was a white male, we can rule them out as well. That leaves 2,603. Men in this age group who were eligible for the draft during the Viet Nam war, which ended on January, 27, 1973. It appears that 1 in 7 men who were between 20 and 30 had either been drafted or fled the country. (My POI was 4-F due to his injury.) If we take 2,603 and divide that number by 7, we get 371. That leaves 2232. As I said before, the Zodiac was probably right handed. And, since 8-15% of people are left handed, we can subtract another 111 leaving 2121. Now, out of 26,000 people living in Vallejo, we have 2121 possible suspects or 12.25% of the population of Vallejo that actually fit our criteria. In other words, we have already eliminated 87.75% of the people!

Next, Dr. Rossmo said to work in the vehicle information. There were several reports of a white, Chevrolet Impala in the vicinity of some of the Zodiac crimes. So, the next question is, how many of those 2121 men drove a white, Chevy Impala? In 1960, there were approximately 180 million people in the United States. In 1963 for example, a year reported by one of the witnesses, Chevy Impala was a very popular car and about a million were sold. That would suggest that one out of every 180 people owned a Chevy Impala. So, if you go back to the original population of Vallejo, 26 thousand, and divide that by 180, you get approximately 144 people who drove ’63 Impalas in Vallejo. If one out of four Impalas sold that year was white, that number can be reduced to 36. If 12.25% of those people were white males, between the ages of 20 and 30 who were right handed, we can multiply 36 by .1225 and we come up with 4.41 men!

Now, Dr. Rossmo said that we could further reduce that number by using some of the personal and behavioral descriptions. For example, if half of those men had light or red hair and the other half had dark, brown or black hair, we can divide that number by two (2 men). We can further divide that number by the number of men that were 5’8” tall and wore a size 10-10-½ shoe.

And, according to Dr. Rossmo, we even can further reduce that number by the number of people who fit the psychological profile as well. And, by using such forensic tools such as handwriting analysis, DNA or fingerprints, we can pretty much eliminate the element of doubt altogether.
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:42 am

Lt. Wilks,

Since most of your objections seem to be centered around the fact that my POI does not look like the SF Drawing, I thought I would address that first. I agree that he doesn't look much like the SF Drawing. And that, on the other hand, he does bear a striking resemblance to the Napa Composite Drawing.

I came across the following on Tom Voigt's site regarding the SF Composite Drawing. I don't know how old the "reportee" was, but the other two witnesses were 13 and 14. The article also mentioned that they were approimately 60' away and that their observation of the crime was hampered by poor lighting conditions and fog.

"They called police and described a white male, 25-30 years old, 5'8" to 5'9" and stocky build, reddish-brown hair worn in a crew cut, heavy-rimmed glasses and dark clothes... The three witneses... worked with a police composite artist to put a face on the Z." A few days later, they asked to revise it to make it more accurate and were able to come up with a second, though similar, composite drawing. This is the drawing that was circulated as a wanted poster.

I do find that Fouks's written description of the Zodiac does fit him pretty closely. Fouke also mentioned that Z was from Welsh descent. Some how, I thought that people of Welsh decent would be blond. So, I looked that up on Google images and found a lot of people that look like everyone else. They seem to have settled in Idaho and many of them seem to have dark hair.

You very accurately described my POI's nationality. Although, I can't give out details of his ancestory here without giving away his identity to anyone who knows him, I will say that he is basically Spanish and German. But, the first time that I saw him, someone said to me, "Hey, that Italian guy was asking about you." Regardless, I agree that he has a mediterranean look with thick, dark hair and a light, olive complexion. Or, as the three girls at LB said, "He was rather nice looking."

I do understand that many people have been accustomed to seeing the SF Drawing over the past 42 years. And, to switch now to the Napa Composite Drawing would be difficult. But, can we rule it out completely? If in fact, Cecilia Shephard was the first one to describe the Zodiac... And, if it was her description that was used to make the first sketch... And, if the college girls were able to identify the Z from that picture and give a more detailed account... Then, there is a good chance that the Zodiac did in fact look like the man in the Napa Composite.

What about MM's description of a man with a dark pompadour? What about BH's description of a man with brown hair that could be seen through the eye wholes? What about CS's description of her attacker that lead to the Napa Composite Drawing? None of these descriptions sound anything like the SF drawing.

What if we are using the wrong drawing? If that is true, then a killer has been allowed to walk the streets of our towns and cities and murder our young girls without being apprehended. In over forty years, the man who's DNA and fingerprints match the Zodiac's has not been found using the SF Drawing. So, maybe it is time that we give the Napa Composite a chance.

I watched a segment on Criminal Minds recently where a young woman said, "You know what gets me is the wives who say they had no clue that their husband was a serial killer." Then, a young man chimed in with, "Man, how can you be married to one and not know?"

Later in the same episode, they had just brought in the girlfriend of a serial killer, when JJ asks, "How could she not know?" To that, Morgan answers, "Kenneth Bianchi's girlfriend had no idea he was one of the Hillside Stranglers." And, Hotchner said, "Just like BTK's wife."

I didn't know either. But, when I found out, I tried to contact law enforcement agencies. But, all they did was roll their eyes at me and give me the brush off.

Ken Narlow said, in regard to the recent release of the movie, "Zodiac", "I hope the movie will resurrect some memories, maybe somebody has some memories out there they hadn't decided to give to law enforement, or don't think are important. But every piece of the puzzle has to fit." So, when someone does come to remember something and comes forward, then what?

No Mr. Wilks, it isn't over yet. The word forensics means, to end the debate. Truly, it won't be over one way or the other until someone compares his DNA and fingerprints to those of the Zodiac.
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:07 am

I'd agree, Madame X, that we should not be too hasty in ruling people out based on the police sketches and witness descriptions.

Madame X wrote:
I am not exactly sure what he did nor where he lived for the next couple of years after he graduated from Hogan High. But, he was living with his parents in Vallejo, in the same house where he had grown up, when I met him in the early seventies.
IMO, more specific information needs to be gathered concerning your POI's whereabouts, personality, interests and activities in the mid-late 1960s in order to make a case for looking at him seriously as a candidate for Zodiac. e.g. comments from old classmates & neighbours regarding suspicions; did he get into any trouble with the law?; any evidence of knowledge/use of cipher codes?; evidence of any tell-tale signs of a potential serial killer in his youth?; handwriting samples & photos from that era; etc. etc.

Difficult to obtain, I know, but as you have real suspicions it places a certain obligation on you to gather as much info as you can, I guess. On the positive side, several posters here have substantial experience in gathering info on POIs and I'm sure would be willing to give you some tips and maybe a helping hand here & there.
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:23 am

Sorry if I missed it, but what made you suspect your POI of being Zodiac again? Did you find a box of old Zodiac newspaper articles, or hear him say he was Zodiac? Or was it because although he lived in that area, he didnt talk about Zodiac at all? Did you ever see him shooting guns? If so, What kind?

Again, and this is just my amateur opinion, but I think your POI was too young both emotionally and compared to the Z sketches. And if Zodiac truly was involved in the Bates case, and left writing down in Riverside, then your POI would most certainly be too young.

I thinl the Zodiac was pretty smart, maybe not a genius. But I think he was smart enough to toy with the police for so long and get away with it. Plus the fact he called his victims BOYS & GIRLS, and liked old movies and THE MIKADO, etc, seems to me to indicate an older person.

If you can find a printed letter "d" from your POI, I would love to see it.
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:17 am

The idea of Z knowing his first victims at LHR, assuming they were his first, and after getting that under his belt continuing on with victims he did not know (or perhaps knew to a lesser degree), either to mask the personal connection to LHR or to continue on with the thrill, is a viable scenario imho.

The K example we see actually looks like a modified two stroke, like a V with a leg on it. Odd.

How about sending this guy an anonymous envelope with the 340 cipher and include an envelope addressed to the Chron, two stamps? Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:52 am

Madame X

Interesting points. And you are free to believe what you wish.

Here is one point you are not understanding. We simply don't know if the man the girls saw at the Lake, drawn in the Napa sketch, was the Zodiac. He was observed watching the college girls wearing bikini's. Well, a lot of guys do that. Maybe he was the Zodiac, but he doesn't look a lot like other Zodiac descriptions. Your POI looks somewhat like the Napa, more in the hair than the face, but all of the Napa composites are terrible and very general. But the Napa composite is not dark complected like your POI, and many thought the Napa man was wearing a wig.

On the other hand we know for a fact that the Stine sketch depicts the Zodiac. The three teens saw a man at Paul Stine's cab. They gave a fairly good description to police. That description was later merged with the man observed by Fouke. We have two versions of the Stine sketch, one looks like a man of 35 to 40, one looks 25 to 30. Neither looks anything at all like your POI. Nor does the Sonoma Zodiac sketch, or the description of Kathleen Johns.

Nobody ever said Zodiac was dark complected or looked Hispanic or Italian. Your POI is not the man depicted in the SF or Sonoma sketches, or the Johns description, therefor, he is not the Zodiac.

Also, there is a dispute about Z's age - 35 to 45 or 25 to 30? There is evdience to support both sides. You quoted from some research I did supporting the younger 25 to 30 side. But I think the picture you sent me of your POI he is 18 or 19? He looks 16 to 19 IMO. He is not one of those rare 19 year olds who look 30. He has a boyish face and looks younger than he is. Again, nobody described Zodiac as being 16 to 20 years old. And I think you have to be 21 to buy a handgun. Did he own any guns when you knew him?

Also it would be impossible for your POI to have done the 1963 murders, and all but impossible for him to have killed Bates.

I am telling you these things because I know this has haunted you, and you have spent money and time investigating this. So I am being honest. Also, your POI is a real person and you are accusing him of mass murder and asking police to spend time investigating him. So I have an obligation to be honest. And this board has a legal obligation to be truthful. Based on all the known evidence, he was not and could not be the Zodiac, in my opinion.

You might send his picture to Morf, Zam and one or two other persons with knowledge of the case. If they all agree with me, then hopefully that will convince you. If two people disagree with me, then that is something for you to think about too.
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:22 pm

Whilst we do not know for sure, the description both in height and basic looks of the men the dentist and the three girls saw that day at Berryessa tally. Also given the area's he was seen and his general behaviour (even shy guys don't tend to creep around and hide behind trees, as the three girls saw him doing) I believe he was the man that attacked Cecelia and Bryan.

I don't place too much faith in the Stine composite to be honest, the kids apparently saw him from this perspective http://www.zodiackiller.com/StineScenes4.html the bottom right picture was taken from the window they saw the Zodiac. Look at Ricardo's video on you tube filmed at night in front of the same house and tell me you would be able to accurately give a good description from that height and in that darkness after seeing him moving around for only a couple of minutes at most. And people wonder why I question that composite.

I think we should go on general build and age range and proximity to the crimes and possible motive. Short 5'7 to about 6, bearing in mind footwear and possible shoe lifts, beefy, stocky not blubberry fat, round face. I often think about the actor Jack Black when I think of Zodiac, that sort of build. Poss reddish tint in the hair/dark hair. Poss glasses wearer. Age never goes below twenties but I think peoples perception of a person's age varys wildly. Then access to cars/guns, was he a member of a gun club, have access to a teletype machine/typewriters/ paper,scalpels,glues and resins. Knowledge of the areas, knew for instance that Cecelia and Bryan would be taken to Queen of the Valley as I believe he placed himself there/juristictions, from only 4 known crime scenes he had already involved three different police forces.

Just a few things I think should be considered. It would also not be cheap to buy the different guns/ammo. Could he sew all these things are pertinent. Much more so than him looking like any of the composites.
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:01 pm



Zodiac Sketch San Francisco 1969



Zodiac Sketch Sonoma County 1975

Going on the young side, Zodiac was 25 to 30 in 1969, and 30 to 35 in the mid seventies. A POI who was 17 or 18 in 1969, and who looked 16 to 18, could not be the Zodiac.

That POI would have been 14 or 15 in 1966 when Bates was killed. Bates was killed at a college library, and every male person was accounted for who was at the library that night, except a bearded young man. That bearded young man could not have been 14 or 15. And a 14 or 15 year old would have been noticed as out of place at a college library. Though some dispute it, the evidence is very strong that Zodiac killed Bates, and that is what Inspector Toschi and the Cal DOJ thought, as well as Mike Butterfield and a majority of Z researchers.

The SF, Sonoma, Johns and other Zodiac descriptions are of a white male, a Caucasian with light complected features, light brown hair with a slight red tinge. They tend to reflect a white male 25 to 35 years old with a probable heritage of Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, Nordic or Slavic; in any event, a North or East European descent. None of the Zodiac descriptions reflect a man of Italian, Hispanic, Latin or Mediterranean heritage. A possible early Zodiac crime, the 1963 Santa Barbara murders, had a light skinned, sandy blonde/light brown haired blue eyed suspect, as did a series of later California couples murders (EAR/ONS).
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:04 pm

Lt. Wilks,

I believe I have previously answered most of your objections, so I will try to be brief. First, as I said before, I don't believe that someone was required to have a permit to own and .22 at that time. (Maybe someone can verify this.) The cover on the box showed a boy shooting squirrels.

Also, for reasons mentioned before, I don't believe that the Zodiac killed Bates. (If I am right, than he was quite a con artist besides! By claiming to have killed Bates, a crime that he did not commit, he appears innocent of the crimes that he did commit!) Seems that not only is he a murderer, but he is a liar as well!!

You mentioned that my POI is a real person, which I am also aware of. (His victims and families and friends that mourned them were also real people!) But, whether or not he is innocent is another question. I researched the Z for six months before I went forward. Even then, I didn't go forward until I was convinced of his guilt beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt. Actually, it wasn't until after I had compared his handwriting that I did decided to go forward. (I can assure you that if the handwriting samples did not match, I would not be doing what I am doing now.) That was three years ago and the more I learn about the case, the more I am convinced that he is the Z. And, even now, I am only asking that LE compare his DNA or fingerprints to that of the Z. I am asking for an investigation - not a conviction!

Lastly, you have mentioned the SF Drawing. I feel that the SF Drawing is very generic. It looks like just about any clean shaven guy with short hair. (You know, two eyes, a nose and a mouth.) I wish that I could post a picture of my ex here, but I can't. But, I will tell you that he looked enough like the Napa Composite that it will do in its place. I have tried several times to paste the Napa Composite picture here without success. But, you can go to ZodiacKiller.com/NapaComposite to see what he looked like.

PS - I am afraid that you are somewhat mistaken in assuming that he is hispanic. Many people have made that same mistake. His step-father was hispanic, but obviously they were not related. (I do believe that his last name was German.)
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:31 pm

You asked me to study what you had and give you my opinion. I have. This will be my last post on this topic. You are free to think what you will.

He looks very Hispanic or Italian. Nobody said the Zodiac looked Hispanic or Italian.

We don't know if the Napa sketch is the Zodiac or not. Other that his hair, your POI does not look much like the Napa sketch.

We know that the Stine sketch is the Zodiac. It is impossible for your POI to be the man depicted in the Stine and Sonoma sketches, or to be the man seen by Johns. Therefor, it is impossible for him to be the Zodiac.

Almost certainly the Zodiac did kill Bates. That is what SFPD and Cal DOJ thought, and it is what the evidence shows. And it is impossible for your POI to have done that. Even in the slight chance that Zodiac did not kill Bates, he certainly wrote the materials, and it would have been impossible for your POI to have done even that. And it would have been impossible for your POI to have done the 1963 murder.

The DNA you gave me does not match the DNA I know from some unsolved murders in which Z is a suspect.

If you POI was Z, you would have seen evidence of an interest in codes, bombs and the case. You report none of those things. I frankly do not even understand why you think he could be the Zodiac - nothing you described fits the Zodiac.

The Zodiac was not an 18 year old Hispanic or Italian looking teenager. That is what the facts and evidence tell us. You say "his victims" are real, but there is not any evidence your POI had any victims.

I know you have been haunted by this, and have spent a lot of time and money on it. I commend you for posting the information and for asking people like me for our opinions. I can only advise you to take a step back, consider what I am saying and look at the facts.
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:15 pm

MadameX, I have to agree with AK on this. I still havent heard of a motive for him to be Zodiac, or a true reason why you suspect him of being Zodiac.
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:01 am

Well, I don't see much sense in beating a dead horse. So, it is probably time to move on. I do think that I have answered most of your objections. But, I will finish here if I can.

Wilks and Morf both mentioned finding newspaper clippings or articles. When I lived in the central valley, there was a principal who was taking pictures of young girls getting dressed in gym class. He was able to accomplish this by telling them that his camera was an x-ray machine. He was caught when he turned in a roll of film to be developed at a Photo Hut. When police searched his home, they found boxes and boxes of photos in the hall closet. That really lead me to wonder if his wife knew. And, if she did know, did she turn the other way so that she could go on enjoying the lifestyle that his wages afforded? I am trying to remember where BTK kept his stash...or as he called it, "his mother-lode", which consisted of various girly pictures including pictures from the Sears catalog. It seems to me that he kept them in a shed in the backyard. (He kept it in a closet in the house.) I can assure you that if my ex kept anything like that in our house, I would have found it.

I don't think that the Z would have taken any chances. I would imagine that he keeps all of his stuff in a storage unit somewhere. From the time that we were married till the time that we were divorced, my ex spent large sums of money on a monthly basis. I don't know how he spent the money, but I have always thought that he possibly lead some kind of double life since he was also gone a lot. Knowing what I know now, I would imagine that he uses at least some of that money to rent a storage unit somewhere. Would the Z take chances? Would we expect anything less from him?

I mentioned before that wives are often the last to know. They know something is wrong, they just don't know what. This is true because wives are part of the facade. To someone like the Z, a wife is an object, a thing, a posession and even a slave. Wasn't it "Sherlock Holmes" who said, the best place to hide a book is on a bookshelf? The best place to hide a serial killer is in an average house with kids, a dog, a cat... you get the picture. How many times do we hear neighbors say, "I can't believe it was So and So, he seemed so nice." That was true of BTK. He went to church and people said that they envied his wife because he was so attentive toward her. But, that was all part of his act. It was part of his ruse. If the Z had slipped up and talked about the Zodiac crimes to his wife, he probably would have been caught long ago. That isn't to say that every guy that doesn't admit to being the Zodiac probably is the Zodiac. It's just that the Zodiac had to act like every other guy, even in his own home. That's what makes Zodiac the Zodiac.

Seems I remember someone asking if anyone had ever asked my POI whether or not he was the Zodiac. Some one did ask him on my behalf, and they were surprised when he didn't deny it. All he said was, she's free to think whatever she wants to think.

Leonardo Divinci said, "He who does not punish evil demands it to be done." I have done everything I can to try to begin an investigation on my POI. I am not sure that there is anything else that I can do.


Last edited by Madame X on Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Wed Apr 14, 2010 6:50 am

Your best bet for police to consider your POI.

1- Have his DNA tested
2-Get his prints
3-get sample of writing

Take it all into the SFPD...and shame them in to taking a fast look at your POI. They could tell within minutes if he is Z or not.
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:04 pm

AK Wilks wrote:
Almost certainly the Zodiac did kill Bates. That is what SFPD and Cal DOJ thought, and it is what the evidence shows.
Mmmm...I beg to differ with you here.

"Almost certainly??" Evidence? Really no proof at all. The letters don't prove it either and LE who oversaw Cheri's case never did and from what I have read, still don't think it was Zodiac, even aside of their "local" boy.

To dismiss a suspect because he couldn't have killed Cheri? Ugh. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:35 pm

I agree with Tahoe, it is not a given that the Zodiac killed Cheri Jo, apart from going on about finding out about his Riverside activity he provided no details. I like Riverside ,I find it perfectly possible that he could have killed her but I wouldn't rule someone out as the Zodiac because they say lived in Australia during 1966. I even debate whether LB and LHR were the work of the same man that did PH and BRS.

The killer of Stine sent in a piece of shirt, the writing etc was the same so the Stine killer was the Zodiac. Also the phone call and subsequent letters after Ferrin lead me to believe he also carried that one out. LHR I have doubts as I do about LB. I don't feel we should dismiss anyone out of hand as at the end of the day one thing is for certain, he has never been positively identified. That means all cards are on the table.

I do feel certain of one thing though, if he is still alive, I think he will, whether it is on his death bed or not reveal himself. Especially if he was someone that was questioned and released. The arrogance and ego I think will not let him go out without one big bang, and a final dig at the police that they never convicted him. Unless of course his mind is gone, then we have to hope he kept trophy's.
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:12 pm

It took some courage for Madame to start this thread and trust everyone to give her a fair hearing.... and I'd imagine there's is more to her story of why she suspects her POI. I'd be quite interested to read more, if there are details that point to those suspicions sounding well founded.

So, here's a question for Her Ladyship.......

This ex-husband of yours sounds pretty cagey as to details of his life just before you met him (i.e. the Z-era). Is it just those years he never talked about, or was he just the type to keep his past under-wraps?... or was he the type who didn't talk to his wife?
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Wed Apr 14, 2010 2:41 pm

Madame X: could you provide a comprehensive list of all the reasons you think your POI is Zodiac? What ties him to Z? Why would your POI choose a crosshair symbol, call himself the Zodiac, compose Gilbert and Sullivan lyrics to a Little List, or make any of the other references in the letters? What about your POI suggests knowledge of or a background in explosives, guns, codes and ciphers, commercial printing and equipment, etc.? Would he have been in Southern California prior to 1967? Did he use the terms "positively ventilate" or "boughten" or "fiddle and fart around"?
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:11 pm

Morf,

I have emailed LE most of the same information that is here. (I have updated it a couple of times since.) Along with that, I have recently also sent samples of his DNA.

A while back, I told LE that I could possibly get fingerprints. But, this was not an easy thing for me to do. Over the past decade, my husband, KISA, and I have stayed pretty mobile, living in a trailer and moving around a lot. And, although I never gave out my physical address, I stayed in contact with my kids through email and my cell phone.

About a year ago, I told my kids that we would be moving again and I told them the name of the city. I felt pretty safe in doing this since the place I was moving to was very remote and my ex could not get there without leaving a trace. After we moved, one of my sons told me that my ex was insisting that he give him my address in order to send me a gift and he wanted my permission. I knew that I didn’t want anything from my ex except his fingerprints. I also figured that it was only a ruse to get my address.

So, I gave my son my work address. Again, I felt pretty safe in doing this since I worked on a military base with armed guards at the gate. The package arrived just before Christmas and when it did, I notified LE (not SF at that time) and waited for them to tell me what to do with the package. After a year of waiting, I finally opened it. It was a framed picture of my granddaughter. But, the glass had shattered and I wasn’t sure whether or not we could get fingerprints off of the shards, especially after a year.

You asked me to shame the police department, so I will take the opportunity to do that just that. Six months after I realized that my POI could possibly be the Zodiac, I took my information to the Vallejo Sheriff's Department. (I could have taken it to Benicia, but I was too embarrassed to admit that I thought that my ex was the Zodiac since I had grown up there and had gone to school with the man who was the chief of police at the time.) In order to do this, my husband and I had to drive nearly five hundred miles. When we arrived, I was very nervous. I had a file box full of pictures, maps, handwriting samples, information, etc. in duplicate. After going through the metal detector, we were directed to a small window where we could talk to someone. An officer was standing behind the window and KISA tried to explain why we were there. I admit it did sound kind of funny when he said, "Hi, we are here to talk to someone about the Zodiac case." The officer slapped his hand on the desk and rolled his eyes as if it was the funniest joke he had heard all day. My husband said, "No, we are serious!" The officer was not about to let us in. But, there was another officer sitting behind a desk, possibly of higher rank, who said, "No, let them in."

So, we walked in, stood at a counter and showed the first officer what we had. Then, he looked back at the second officer before dismissing us. But, the second officer came to our rescue once again. He said, "I want you to set up an escort immediately and take them to Fairfield to talk to detectives there.”

So, we hopped back into our rental car, and followed our escort to Fairfield. By that time, my nerves were completely shot. I hadn’t eaten all day, but I figured that it would soon be over and that I would make it.

When we got to Fairfield, our escort lead us down a long hallway where we met with a detective and we were taken into an interrogation room. The detective invited another young detective to join us, but he immediately came in, sat down and fell asleep. (Perhaps he had worked all night, who knows. But, it didn’t do anything to boost my confidence.) So, I went over the information that I had concerning the Zodiac. I also tried to explain to him very briefly about the kind of person that my ex was on a more personal level, which was something that was very difficult for me. But, I felt it was something that he needed to know. By the end, I was feeling so faint that I was just glad to find that I could still walk.

After not hearing from the detective for about a week, I tried calling him. Then, I emailed him and he emailed back that he was very busy, which I have no doubt that he was. After several weeks, he finally returned one of my calls. He said that he had given my information, including handwriting samples, to a couple of profilers (FBI?) and that they both thought that there was a possibility that my ex was the Z. I didn’t hear from him again. Then, a few weeks ago, I sent him an email with the DNA analysis that I had eventually obtained. He emailed back that he had received it, but I have not heard from him again since that time.

For the last three years, I have tried emailing and calling different law enforcement agencies, TV shows, web hosts, etc. I finally wound up posting on Zodiac Zee a few months ago and from there, I finally wound up here.

A little over a year ago, my husband, KISA, got a job at a very remote location and I knew that it was possibly my last chance to see my children and grandchild. It was also my last chance to talk to LE. I won't go into great detail here to try to explain how difficult all of this was for me. But the move meant leaving everything behind since all we could take with us were a few suitcases and our cat.

So, we sold, stored or tossed all of our belongings and moved into our trailer. Then, we drove our vehicles down to California where we were planning to leave them with our children. We had planned to stay in California for a few days, visit our kids, take a train back home, put our trailer in storage then fly to our new destination. But, before going down, I couldn’t tell my kids that we were coming. That was the only way that we could go down without the possibility that someone would inadvertently tell my ex that we were there. He had stocked us before and I wasn’t about to go through that again.

When we got down to the bay area, the first thing I did was go to SFPD. I had tried calling ahead, but no one had returned my calls. We drove to the police station on Bryant Street, parked, walked up the steps, went through the glass doors and metal detectors, rode the elevator and finally wound up at the detective's office.

When we got there, we walked up to a counter. Beyond that was a receptionist sitting behind a large desk. She didn’t look up from whatever it was that she was doing, but just told us that none of the detectives were in at the moment and that we could take a form, fill it out and mail it back to them. The person I was with was shocked and said, "No, you don't understand. She just drove 500 miles to talk to someone." Then, I said, “Yes, that is true. I am only here for a few hours. Then, I fly to __ and won't bother you again."

So, she walked into the other office and came out with a detective. He lead us through the same office, which was anything but void of detectives, and into a makeshift interrogation room that was sort of a hallway/storeroom/broom closet. There, we sat down and I began to go over my information with him. He did seem to know a little about the case and was actually polite. Again, I can tell you that it was all very difficult for me especially when I had to share personal information with him. The detective assured me that he would see to it that a detective got the package, but, as you can imagine, I never heard from them again.

Afterwards, I went to see my children. I met them at their church and hugged them all as though I would never see them again. Afterwards, a couple of my children let me know that their schedules were pretty full and that they wouldn't have time to see me. So, the next night, we gave them the things that we had come down to give them and left early. But, before we did, my granddaughter asked me to color with her and we laid on the floor and colored in one of her coloring books. (Sorry, but this was a very big moment in my life!) I also learned that my daughter-in-law was pregnant and I knew that I probably would never see my second grandchild.

After moving, I continued to research the case. And, eventually I began to get more sophisticated. I started sending packages of information to LE agencies again. Then, I put together an email package and started sending that instead. Eventually, I learned of the zodiaczee forum. And from there, I wound up here.

Last December, I was finally able to obtain a DNA sample. After I moved, I finally told my sons about my suspicions. And, you can imagine that it was very hard for them to believe that their father was the Zodiac killer. They didn’t deny that my information was accurate. They just wanted more proof. So, I asked one of my sons if he could try to get a DNA sample from him. But, he was hesitant, so I told him that he could be proving his father's innocence as well as his guilt. Not long after that, he mailed me a spoon and I immediately sent it to a place that does paternity testing and had it analyzed. I got the results back three days later and immediately began sending it out to LE agencies.

Eventually, I happened to find out that SF had set up a cold case unit. So, I began calling them each week. At first, I wasn’t surprised when they didn’t call back. I realized later that I had been so nervous that I had actually transposed two numbers when leaving my phone number! But, I kept calling every week. Eventually, Holly Pera called me back. When she did, she was very nice. I started to rush through my story, thinking that she would hang up on me. But instead she said, “Why don’t you tell me all about it?” So, I did. But, still I didn’t feel that she believed me and I felt that I had come to another dead end.

But, why should she believe me? Even if someone who was perfectly sane and normal called to tell someone that “they were the bride of Zodiac”, no one would believe them. And, my being nervous didn’t help.

Eventually another agent happened to return one of my previous calls. But, as soon as he realized who I was he tried to dismiss me. I tried to ask him a couple of questions, but he just kept interrupting. So, on the fourth try, I gave up as he hung up the phone. I felt like some sort of tell-a-marketer! I told my husband later that I couldn't remember being treated that rudely in my life!

Morf, I completely agree with you here. What I have waited years to know would take them minutes to find out.


Last edited by Madame X on Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:58 am

Madame X, I am frankly not surprised at the attitude of the police, it appears to me any mention of the Zodiac and they will probably treat most people as some kind of irritant that they want out of the office. The only way people like Kaufmann and Perez seem to get attention is by going to the media and creating a hoopla around fake knives/hoods. It leaves anyone investigating the case and wanting to perhaps approach them with material in the position of not knowing who best to approach.

I know some of the guys on the forum have had dealings with the FBI, personally I feel they may be the best ones to approach, perhaps some of the guys here could relate how they found the FBI, whether they were receptive or not. Have you ever tried to approach them? There should really be a department for every state where cold case files are looked at if the person contacting them does have something new/ something of merit to show them. I wonder how many people over the years had something interesting to connect with this case and then poss just gave up because of the disinterest of LE.
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:03 am

MadameX....I appreciate you sharing your suspicions here with us. I know that you believe what you are saying, and that you have a genuine feeling about your Ex being Zodiac. I also am sorry that the police seem to be "non-believers".

Here is my own personal opinion, and you touched on this as well. Walk into a police station and say "ZODIAC" and immediately cops role their eyes. I dont think they take it seriously, and heres why. The case is 40 years old. Every cop you talk to was NOT on the case 40 years ago. They dont have a vested interest, and many dont know as much about the case as we do. Add in the fact 1000 people have bombarded them with Zodiac tips & info already, to the fact they are short staffed and have plenty of new unsolved cases to solve, and that all leads to where you are now and that is you and your POI being ignored. Police have also been soured by the DEBRA PEREZ's & DENNIS KAUFFMANS of the world, holding press conferences and drawing attention to themselves. Irconically, it is ONLY by drawing attention to themselves and to the police dept, that they are able to get the police to get off their asses.

If you have prints & DNA reports from your husband, they could easily compare it to evidence on file and rule him out. I would hound them again and again until they say that they will compare it. But once again I have to ask you, if we as members here have legit questions about why you think your Ex was Zodiac, the cops are thinking the same thing as us. Just because he lived in Vallejo at the time of the Zodiac crimes doesnt make him Zodiac. Just because he didnt talk about Zodiac doesnt make him Zodiac.

Things you will need to answer for the cops:

1) Why do you think he is Zodiac? (still didnt hear an answer from you on this)
2) Did you see him shoot any guns, and if so what kind?
3) Does he have any zodiac related materials or clues
4) Why doesnt he look like the sketch of Zodiac more?
5) How do you explain his age difference from the Zodiac sketch(to me, this is the one main thing.If you say that he was 20 or under during the Z crimes, it simply doesnt fit with anything we know of Zodiac, plus he would be too young for any of the possible Z crimes in southern CA)

Not trying to be tough on you MadameX, but this is what the police will be asking you, and thinking to themselves
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PostSubject: Interesting   Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:33 am

Madame X
I have been reading your posts and am interested in more detail when you feel comfortable to share with us. This can not be easy - but you should know that the majority on here appreciate your openess into your past and present. Morf asks some interesting questions that I also am interested in.
* did your husband ever pal around anyone when he would be gone for periods of time?
* what was his mood/demeanor when he returned if you can recall

Best, Boilermaker
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PostSubject: ANSWERS TO MORF'S QUESTIONS   Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:40 pm

Morf,

Thank you for taking the time to write. I will try to address each of your comments and questions to the best of my ability. You mentioned the problem with the police departments. I agree that they have been bombarded with witnesses. And, with the number of new homicides, I am sure that they are over burdened. Still, they can’t assume that every one is lying and still get their jobs done. And, what witnesses will go forward if they know that they will be treated with less respect than criminals receive?

As far as the Debra Perezes of this world are concerned, I must say that, from the beginning, the way that she was handling things seemed very strange to me. I struggled for a long time with even being able to admit to myself that my ex was possibly the Zodiac Killer. Through out our marriage, I was in denial even about the kind of husband that he was. I just couldn't believe that I could have married such a person. And, I was too busy trying to raise a family and run a household to stop and ask too many questions. (KISA says that I couldn't "see the forest for the trees".) But, after I finally got away from him, I had to begin to face reality. It was a long, slow process. Later, when I began to realize that he could also be the Zodiac Killer, it was less of a leap than it could have been otherwise.

Still, in the past three years, I have only told a handful of people I know that I suspect my ex of being the Zodiac. A couple of those people now avoid me like the plague. And, one in particular, has not spoken to me since. It is a little safer with the people on this site. But that is only because you don’t know me personally and I don’t know you. And, I can assure you that the people who do know me, don't know me as the "mysterious Madame X!"

I find it embarrassing and shameful to think that I was ever possibly married to the infamous Zodiac killer. Even though, as far as I know, the crimes were committed before I met him. Not only that, but I divorced him ten years before I found out and I am also the one trying to turn him in.

I am always worried about what people will think when they find out. I am also afraid that KISA and I will lose our jobs. But, my biggest fear is for my children. I have often wondered what their spouses and the people in their community will think. But, they have assured me that everything will be okay. So, for Debra to start out by doing a press conference would be kind of like hanging her dirty underwear out in public or divulging her darkest family secret.

What about Matthew Roberts? It was years before he could admit that Charles Manson was actually his father. And, I read that Paula Rader, wife of BTK, was in denial and went into seclusion after hearing that her husband was a serial killer.

I could see Perez going to police out of a sense of duty. But, I can’t see the daughter of a serial killer going before the media, unless that was a last resort. (I realize that she claimed that she had gone to the police, but that seems very unlikely to me since she was making everything up and was actually promoting her documentary.) And, from everything I read, neither Perez nor Kaufman have very good track records for telling the truth.

You asked me to explain why I believe that my ex is the Zodiac. Briefly, he fit’s the geographical profile. He looks like the Napa Composite. He drove the same kind of car. He fit’s the descriptions given by witnesses. In one of the coded messages, the Zodiac possibly gave my ex husband’s first name and in another, he may have given his first name and the initial to his birth last name - a name that few people would have known. His handwriting matches. And, from a wife’s perspective, he fits the psychological profile as well.

Typically, any one of these things would be enough reason for a person to go forward as a witness. And, yet, even when all of these things line up, I am still treated as though I am making these things up out of thin air! And, in the mean time, he is free to enjoy the many and varied aspects of life. He even spends time with my children and grandchildren, while friends and family of the victims are dying without answers.

It is hard to picture a serial killer having a wife and children. And, it is even harder to imagine a serial killer who has a wife who is completely unaware of what her husband is doing. But, here again, we don’t typically think the same way that serial killer’s think.

The wife is part of the façade. She will be the last one to know. If she knew, she would immediately turn him in. And, he knows that. So, he marries a woman who has a good reputation and who will present him in a good light. He chooses someone who is dedicated to raising a family. And, who wants a family so badly that she will be willing to make any sacrifice to make that family work.

This is part of an article about Judith Ridgway, wife of Gary Ridgway:
King County detectives interviewed Judith Ridgway on Nov. 30, 2001, just as the news broke that her husband of 13 years had been arrested.
"No I don't believe that," she told a detective who asked her whether her husband might have had sex with women who are Green River victims. "He's always been so, so gentle and caring and ...."
And she promised to testify for him in court. "I would tell 'em everything is good about him."
But she has yet to have that chance. Ridgway pleaded guilty this month to the murders of 48 women and girls, many of them killed in the early 1980s, in a plea deal that spared him from execution. He strangled the victims, many of them runaways and prostitutes, and discarded a few of their bodies along the Green River in Kent.
Judith Ridgway, who has become estranged from her husband, painted a picture of marital bliss for detectives…
She remained supportive in the two-hour interview even after detectives told her that DNA tests had matched her husband to three Green River victims.
"We're best friends," she told detectives.
She said her husband had never hit her or even been mad at her.
"So he's been a good husband to you?" a detective asked.
"Oh, yes," she replied.
She added later: "He'll come through the door and say, 'Hello, I'm home.' And a big smile and give me a hug and a kiss, and 'What's new?' "
Again, she seemed to offer little that would implicate her husband in the Northwest's most notorious criminal case. Still, she had a different view of her husband and mentioned divorce to detectives. .
When a detective asked her whether there was "a dark side to Gary," she responded: "That I don't know."

As far as trophies are concerned, I have no doubt that, if my ex was the Zodiac, he would definitely have kept tropies. For example, I once found a cup in his house before we were married. And, I happened to know that it was from a certain restaurant. And, I also knew who worked there. And, it didn’t take long to figure out why he had it on his shelf.

No, I believe that the Zodiac keeps his trophies in a storage unit. And, it is also my guess that he visits them on a pretty regular basis, like once a week. And, I think that if police would put any suspect under surveillance that it would not take long before he would lead them to it. (Perhaps the old Zodiac Mobile will also be there - my ex never told me what became of his white Impala.)

But, if someone thinks that the Zodiac would keep trophies lying around the house for his wife to see, they underestimate him. (Of course, that is not to say that if your husband does not have trophies, he is the zodiac!) Most married men do have a certain amount of accountability.

My ex lived a double life. If he said that he would be home at four, he was home at eight. If he said he was going to be gone for one hour, he was gone for five. And, it was not unusual for him to come home at four in the morning during our first few years of marriage when we lived in Vallejo, even when we had babies at home.

Every month, my ex spent hundreds of dollars that he could not give an account for. That number, escalated over the years. At first, he was spending over three hundred dollars a month - a house payment in those days! And, by the time I left him, that number had increased to over sixteen hundred a month. (Again, enough for a house payment.) How did he do it? If I asked him to pick up a head of lettuce on the way home from work, he cashed a check for forty dollars. (Awful expensive lettuce!) And, he took out twenty dollar bills from the ATM machine like they were candy. When questioned, he said that he was buying gas. But, once I added it up and showed him that he would have to be driving 35 thousand miles a month! (No, his odometer did not back him up!) Besides, as a salesman his company covered his travel expenses, which were no where near what he was spending.

Once, while we were married, we sold a house and put the money in a savings account until we could reinvest it. But, I later found out that he was draining over a thousand dollars a month out of the account. At the end of a year and a half, all of the money was gone.

Today, he still spends money as though it is growing on trees. And, he even had to take out a second mortgage on our home even though his income should more than exceed his expenses. (He told my sons that I was responsible for spending the money although I had divorced him and moved away 7 years earlier!)

My Ex was, and I believe still is, a pathological liar. I caught him in a lie on an average of once per week. So, you can imagine that there were many more lies that I did not catch. No matter what he did, he always had a lie ready. But, usually he just didn’t say anything. (I didn’t have any right to know anyway.) That way, he didn’t have to keep his lies straight.

If a woman’s husband came straight home from work every night and never spent more than a reasonable amount of money each day, she would have no reason to suspect him of anything. But, if he can not give an account of where he has been or where he has spent hundreds of dollars, a wife will have cause for concern, and rightly so.

When I heard about the Zodiac, all of the pieces to the puzzle began to fall together. And, I began to have possible answers to some of my questions. Of course, other answers could possibly fit as well. Time will tell.

If LE came up to me today and told me that the man that I am married to now, KISA, had committed a crime, I would say with absolute certainty that that was not possible. I have never known him to lie, I always know where he is and he never spends money in a way that cause me to become suspicious.

Some people seem to think of the Zodiac as a petty criminal. Again, they underestimate him. He knows that SF has his fingerprints and he is not about to be brought in on a lesser charge. That is what makes him the Zodiac. And, that is why he has been free for over forty years. How many other murderers have been brought in for a traffic violation and been fingerprinted?

No, he is smarter than that. I am not necessarily saying here that he is not a criminal. It just means that he doesn’t take a lot of risks and that he covers all of his bases. (Although, again the converse is not necessarily true - all men who don’t have traffic violations are not serial killers.) It just means that they are looking in the wrong place if they are looking for a petty thief. That would not fit the Z’s profile. No, I think they will find that the person who is the Zodiac has not been fingerprinted since Codis and he has been able to avoid arrest for the past forty years.

Morf, you asked me about his gun. Here, I would like to remind you that I met him in the summer of 1972. As far as we know, this was after he had basically finished committing his crimes and sending letters. (Although, he did send the Exorcist letter in January of 1974, which is kind of “spooky” since he took me to see it with him.) So, I don’t know what kinds of guns he had or that were available to him in the late sixties.

I think that I mentionede it before, but he did talk about going hunting with his step father before we met. (Something about hunting bears, drinking beers and telling stories.) Sometime before I met him, his step-father bought him a Winchester 30-30, which, as far as I know, he still has. He used to take it with us when we went camping. A couple of times, he would use it for target practice. He even let me shoot it a couple of times.

I have been asked if it is because he didn’t talk about the Zodiac murders that I suspect him?
How many people remember where they were on 9/11? (I do.) I also remember where I was in 1963, when John F. Kennedy was shot. And, believe me, most people who are in any way associated with the Zodiac (lived in the same town, knew a friend of a friend, etc.) remember it very well. I have read many, many blogs where people say just that. Zamantha, for example, lived in Vallejo at the time of the Zodiac shootings and remembers it quite well.

My ex lived within a few blocks of BLJ. He went to the same junior high and high school. They were even in the same grade. BLJ was killed by one of the most notorious serial killers of all times. Her class at Hogan High set up a 10,000.00 reward for the capture of her killer. And, they dedicated the 1968 yearbook to her memory.

I met him in the summer of 1972, 3-1/2 years after BLJ had been murdered. (Less than three years after Paul Stine had been killed.) We lived in that area for 10 years after we met. We went to each of the murder scenes frequently. Yet, he never mentioned the fact that he knew BLJ or the fact that the Zodiac had murdered people in the places we had visited during the 26 years that we were together. That strikes me as odd. And, I would even go as far as to say that sometimes it's not what we say but what we don't say that counts.

A while ago, I heard a story about two police officers who were patrolling an area following a crime. They had been trained to look for any thing suspicious. So, when they passed two men who didn’t look up as they passed, they began to think that that was unusual. It was unusual, because most people look up when they see a police car go by because they are wondering if anything has happened. And, of course, they were right.

Morf, you asked me to explain why the Zodiac does not look more like the SF Sketch and why he is not of the same age as the man in the sketch. I can only answer that by saying that I do not believe that my ex is the man in the SF Sketch. I believe that he is the man in the Napa Composite Drawing. In my oppinion, he looks practically identical to the man in the Napa Composite Drawing and meets the age criteria as well.

I have already spent several pages on the subject of age under DESCRIPTION OF MADAME X’S POI. So, I would be concerned that, if I covered that subject again here, I would bore people to tears. So, I will just use a quote from Quantico, “Age is the hardest to predict. Never exclude someone because of a discrepancy of age.”

When ever I try to guess someone's age, I am always off by a few years. Occassionally, I have been off by several years, so I always try to guess low. Besides, witnesses have guessed any where from the age of a student to 45 years old!

I appreciate you for playing devil’s advocate with me. But, in all due respect, if we get too hung up on age, Zodiac goes free. To tell you the truth, no one fits all of the descriptions given of the Zodiac - not even the real Zodiac! And, there is not one car that is both blue and white and sometimes tan.

If LE wants to challenge me on the age issue or any other issue, all they have to do is compare my ex's DNA or fingerprints to the Zodiac's to put an end to the argument and prove themselves either right or wrong. (They could even follow him around for a few days and see if he stop by his old storage unit!) I have already given them what I believe to be my ex's DNA analysis. If I am right, we move on from there. If I am wrong, they can say "I told you so," and I can go back to my old life. (Not a bad proposition!)

Lastly, you asked me about motive. This is a hard subject to approach and I have tried to avoid it up until this time. To suggest that BLJ had multiple boyfriends does not go over very well. But, we already know from the police reports that she was dating Danny Price, who was a police officer. He was obviously an older man and perhaps Sandy could tell us whether or not he was married. She had also been dating Richard Burton, another student. And, of course, she was seeing David Faraday.

We know that BL was good friends with Sharon, who went to a party on Frisbe that night. (My ex took me to a couple of those parties in Vallejo, so I have a pretty good idea of what they were about - and, I can tell you, they weren't selling Tupperware!) We also know that BL had been dating boys and telling her parents that she was staying at Sharon’s.

Besides that, we known the times that they were living in and I know the kind of life that my ex had lived as well. After all, it was 1968, the year following the summer of love. And, to put it in proper perspective, Vallejo is only 30 miles from San Francisco.

I am not trying to tarnish BLJ’s reputation. I am just trying to present the evidence for what it is worth. It doesn’t necessarily mean that she was a “bad” person. Most of us make mistakes when we are 16, immature and gullable. And, a lot of those mistakes follow us through the rest of our lives. The mistakes that BLJ made may have cost her hers. (And, the mistake that I made in marrying my ex ruined mine.)

My ex was a bit older then BLJ and drove a pretty cool car, a Chevy Impala. And, as I said before, he wasn’t that bad to look at. So, it is possible that they were dating. And, if they were dating, it is possible that he went into a jealous rage when he saw her out with DF. I believe that there was a lot more to it than that. For one thing, as I said before, my ex had many stressors that year. He may have gotten to the point that he just couldn't take any more rejection. Who knows, maybe he just came to his limit.


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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:16 pm

Although I personally dont think I see enough to make your Ex likely to be Zodiac,(he was much younger than the SFPD Zodiac sketch, and even a little younger than the Berryessa sketch) I do agree with you that age simply shouldnt be "tossed out". Since none of us know who Z was, we dont know his age. Maybe all these years, police should have been looking for a younger person.

But then again, to say your Ex was Zodiac, is to say that he had no involvement in the Bates case letters in 1967, since he wasnt down in the Riverside area. That would make what the writing experts concluded wrong.


Keep digging, maybe you will find that one big clue!
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:43 am

Rufus T Firefly wrote:
It took some courage for Madame to start this thread and trust everyone to give her a fair hearing.... and I'd imagine there's is more to her story of why she suspects her POI. I'd be quite interested to read more, if there are details that point to those suspicions sounding well founded.

So, here's a question for Her Ladyship.......

This ex-husband of yours sounds pretty cagey as to details of his life just before you met him (i.e. the Z-era). Is it just those years he never talked about, or was he just the type to keep his past under-wraps?... or was he the type who didn't talk to his wife?

Mr. Firefly,

I want to thank you for being such a gracious gentleman. Your kind words are very much appreciate. I would also like to appologize in advance for the overly long length of my reply. Yes, my ex was petty cagey. He graduated a couple of years before I did. And, all I know about that time in his life is that he lived in what he called a flop house. I asked him several times to tell me where it was, but he never did. So, I finally decided to Google the words, "flop house”. And, as it turns out, they were more common in San Francisco. (That is not to say for a certainty that Vallejo did not also have flop houses.) So, I now have the impression that he may have gone to live in Haight/Ashbury during that time.

He also told me that his mother had kicked him out of the house when she found marijuana in his room. So, I am assuming that he may have gone to join the hippie movement. He took me to San Francisco frequently when we were dating. And, looking back, he knew his way around the city much better than you would expect from an occasional visitor.

My ex used to talk about this childhood also. And, as I said in one of my posts, although he thought that he had lived in Vallejo with his mother and step-father, it appears to me that he actually lived in his birth state with his aunt. At that point in his life, I don’t think that he was lying. I think he was just told something other than the truth. That is probably when he began compartmentalizing. He also told me about being adopted and several other incidents that took place in 1968, that I have referred to here as stressors.

While we were dating, he would tell me that he would pick me up after work. But, most of the time, he didn’t show up. After we were married, as I said before, he just wouldn’t come home after work. It wasn’t uncommon for him to come home at four in the morning. And, when he did come home, he was always drunk or stoned or both. I don’t know to this day where he spent all of his time. And, I don’t know who he spent it with.

After we started having kids, I started taking them to church. And, before long, I began teaching Sunday school, Vacation Bible School, etc. And, my oldest son began singing and playing guitar. At that point, my ex decided to “get in on the act.” And, the next thing I knew, he had become a deacon. That really bothered me because I felt that he was being a hypocrite. And, I later found out that he was using the opportunity to present himself as the good person and me as the bad person.

I guess that it was about that time that I began to realize what a fake and a looser he rally was. He had already shut me off from my family and friends And, now he was shutting me off from any possible help that I could have gotten from the people in my church. So, I didn’t have much choice but to make the best of it.

Once, after my first son was born, my ex and I went out with another couple. Then, the men got so drunk, that my friend was afraid that her husband would beat her as soon as they got home. So, we walked back to my car and I drover her to my house. (Little did I realize that my situation wasn’t any better.) Shortly after we got there, our husbands showed up. And, my ex practically broke down the door. I grabbed my baby and ran to a neighbor’s to call the police. But, all they did was tell me to find somewhere else to stay for a couple of nights. So, we went to stay with my mom. Some how, I knew then that I would never be able to leave him. And, I also knew that I would never get out with my kids.

Up until this point, I have not talked much about my personal life or my life with him. But, I think that what you are actually asking me here is, how can a woman be married to the Zodiac and not know it? That is a good question and one that I am not sure how well I can answer. (I can tell you that I have never been able to talk about it without my mind going blank a few times.) To tell you about our marriage would probably be more than most people could understand or believe. So, I am probably setting myself up for more reticule. But, here goes.

I have also learned that a one-line question usually turns into a two-page answer. But, I believe that to try to explain the dynamics of being married to a serial killer openly and honestly would take a book! So, I will try to be as brief as possible.

But, the real question that begs to be asked here is… how could I have been so stupid!?!? I have asked myself that question hundreds if not thousands of times. How could someone with a reasonable amount of intelligence fall for a guy like him? Why didn’t I leave him? How did he get away with so much?

Most men know that if they treated their wives the way that he treated me, they would never get away with it. So, how can that make sense in their minds? I think that it would make more sense to believe that the Zodiac would have remained single.

To me, serial killers are the most selfish people on the planet. They believe that another person’s life has no more value than to serve their particular purpose. I believe that the reason that he killed so many women in that area was just to draw police away from Vallejo.

To explain why I stayed with my ex, would take going into my childhood as well as his. So, in a nut shell, here are some of the dynamics of our relationship. For one thing, my father had been sick for many years before we met and he died the year before we got married. My mother and I weren’t close, and he had turned most of my friends and family against me. He also had a guilt ridden, doting mother who always took his side, right or wrong. Right after we got married, we had four children within five years. After that, as I said before, I couldn’t get out with my children and I couldn’t leave them alone with him.

There was also the issue of my religious beliefs. I believed in being a submissive wife. And, I also believed that to divorce would mean to go to hell for all eternity. But, in the end, I finally chose hell over being married to him. There was also a lot of psychological abuse as well. (If you have ever seen the movie, “Gaslight”, you will understand what I am talking about.) It was just another way that he controlled me by destroying my confidence and ability to function normally around people.

But, the main way that he was able to get away with the way that he treated me was by drugging me with MDMA This, he was able to do without my knowledge. Near the end of our marriage, after I threatened to leave him, he drugged me with a very heavy dose and he probably threw in a few other drugs besides. I think that I nearly died and the side affects lasted for several years.

When I realized what he had done, I asked him about it and he asked me, “How did it make you feel?” That line was so diabolical that I almost couldn’t bear it. It was especially hard coming from someone who was suppose to love, honor and cherish me. I asked him again later, and he admitted that he had drugged me and that he had drugged me before as well. I knew that I had been having health problems over the years, but I had no idea what was causing them.

MDMA had originally been used by psychologists to create a bondage between himself and his patient. And, that is how he used it on me. He used it to create a bondage that would cause me to trust him even when it went against my better judgment. But, remember that he was and is a psychopath, so, to drug someone would not go beyond his code of ethics in the slightest. He was not beneath using drugs on me to achieve the results he was after.

It is interesting that the whole time that we were married, he never laid a hand on me. I thought that I was lucky in a way when I heard of how some of my friend’s husbands were treating them. But, he had developed ways to control and hurt me psychologically. I knew that even if I did keep my children that I could never find a way to shelter, feed and cloth them.

A couple of weeks after he drugged me, I got a job at a camp near our house as a housekeeper. I had a room at the camp and I could stay there on the days when I worked. My sons worked there too and I felt that it would be a way for me to get away from my ex and also be with my kids. Believe me, that was the only job that I could have possibly done. The drugs had nearly destroyed my mind as well as my physical health.

It was all that I could do to clean rooms. I was having great difficulty concentrating or remembering the simplest things. Through out the nights, I was an insomniac and through out the days, I suffered from chronic fatigue. I was also in a great deal of physical pain. Every joint in my body ached, some more than others, and my hands and feet hurt as well. Also, because he had given me GHB, my body swelled until I felt that I was twice my normal size.

During the next three years that I worked at the camp, was a time of healing, and my health began to gradually improve. At that time, I also struggled with the idea of getting a divorce. That is when I met my second husband, KISA. As I said before, he was and is my knight in shining armor. He gave me the strength and courage to go through with the divorce. He also took me as I was and loved and cared for me as I continued to regain my health.

When I left my ex, I walked away basically with my clothes and a few household items. Later, he got me fired from my job at the camp, and I had to leave everything else behind also. KISA and I had to drive across the United States just to get away from him. And, when KISA found a job, I had to live in a very small trailer.

A few years after I married KISA, he set up the Internet on his computer and showed me how to use it. That is when I began to do research into the possibility that my ex had been drugging me. And, that is when I learned about drugs like MDMA, GHB, Roofies, etc. for the first time.

After I read about the symptoms, I realized that he had been drugging me from the time that we had first met. One of the side affects is the loss of depth perception. And, I could remember laying in my bed at home with my eyes closed. I remembered feeling like either I was as big as my room or that my room was the size of a box and I was in that box. Then, I would open my eyes and find that everything was normal. I also remember the sensation that although I could feel pain and it was more intense, I could cope with it because it felt like it was outside of my body. I also read that it causes jaw clenching and I developed TMJ about that time.

Then, I read that these drugs came out of San Francisco, which was only 30 miles south of Vallejo. I also realized that the times that these drugs came out and the times that these drugs became illegal corresponded to my symptoms as well.

MDMA is very a very harmful drug that is similar to Ritlin, Meth or Dexatrim. It is harmful to your heart, thyroid, pituitary and arteries. It also affects 5HTP absorption and causes depression. GHB is possibly even worse. It causes drastic weight gain, hair loss, mood swings and loss of immunity.

Eventually, I told my ex that our marriage was over. I also told my kids that we were having marital problems and that I would try to find a way to support us. A few days later, we went to a revival meeting. And, my husband, who was already a deacon, went forward to receive salvation. And, of course, my kids believed that he was forgiven. It was a few days after that that he drugged me and I knew that he hadn’t been sincere.

My ex was also able to turn my kids against me. (The steroids alone could have achieve that.) But, I never could figure out how he had done it until recently. At that time, my husband KISA and I saw an episode on Criminal Minds that dealt with Stockholm syndrome. In that episode, the mother shot her husband. Later, when, Hotchner and Rossi interviewed the kids, the kids told them how wonderful their father was and how much he loved them. Then they told them how stupid there mother was and how she couldn’t do anything right. They said that she couldn’t even go to the store without buying the wrong things and that their home was a pig’s sty. But, when Hotchner and Rossi went to their house, they found that it was absolutely immaculate.

Although I kept trying harder and harder to be perfect, he always criticized everything I did in front of my kids. Finally, one night when he came home after work, I presented a perfect meal. I had ground my own wheat to make bread. I had grown all of the vegetables in my own garden. I had milked my own goats for the milk. And, I had had raised my own meat. The house was clean, the laundry was done and the kids all ran to greet him at the front door.

When he criticized me, I finally realized that he was the problem, not me. I felt that any normal man would have appreciated all that I had done for him. I think that he had finally pushed me too far and I finally quit trying to please him. All I wanted was a normal life. And I hoped that my kids would find happiness and have normal lives also.

I once met a man who was a psychologist and I shared parts of my story with him. Later, he told me that I was not alone. He said that three out of four women have had similar experiences. He also said that many of those women had wound up on the streets. He said that the difference was that I was a survivor and that I didn’t sit around feeling sorry for myself. I woke up every morning and realized that the world was still turning and that I was still breathing. Life went on whether I wanted it to or not.

After I lost my children, I didn’t have any will to live. (Watch the 1937 version of Madame X - one difference is that I didn’t have an affair.) Over and over again, I would see young men who looked like my children and it would be all I could do to keep from running up to them and saying, are you my son? You must be __. You look just like him!

Once I met a lady who had lost her son. She was self destructing. She just sat in front of the TV eating junk food. When I met her, I just thought, what if your son meet you today? What would he think? Would he be proud of you? I thought, if I ever saw my children again, I would want them to be proud of me. So, I just kept putting one foot in front of the other and life went on.

My kids are great kids. They are all outstanding adults. And, I love them dearly. It is unfortunate that my ex did so much damage to our relationship. And, sometimes I wonder if there is the possibility of going back. But, I believe in yin and yang and if there has to be some bad as well as good in life, then, I would rather that the bad happened to me so that they can go on being good people and raise wonderful families.

At the same time, my husband, KISA and I have been on our honeymoon for the past twelve years. And, I am twice as happy with him as I was miserable with my ex.

I guess that now people will say that I believe that my ex is the Zodiac because of the way that he treated me. But, actually, the way that he treated me is the reason that I didn’t disbelieve it.
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PostSubject: Re: Introducing Madame X's Person of Interest   Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:08 am

Boilermaker wrote:
Madame X
I have been reading your posts and am interested in more detail when you feel comfortable to share with us. This can not be easy - but you should know that the majority on here appreciate your openess into your past and present. Morf asks some interesting questions that I also am interested in.
* did your husband ever pal around anyone when he would be gone for periods of time?
* what was his mood/demeanor when he returned if you can recall

Best, Boilermaker

Boilermaker,

Thank you for reading my posts. I know that they are long and I appreciate you for bearing through them. I have just shared a big portion of my life with RTF. I don't know whether or not I was comfortable in sharing it. (I am actually feeling rather bare right now.) But, it did seem that it needed to be shared.

I mentioned in my last letter that I never knew where my husband went and I never knew who he was with. I wish that there would have been some way to have found out. There were times that I thought about hiring a private detective, but there just wasn't any money for things like that.

You asked what his demeanor was like when he came home. I remember being home with my kids. Then, I would send them all to bed, so they wouldn't know that there was a problem. At first, I would be worried. I kept on wondering whether or not I should call the police or local hospitals. Eventually, I would get mad.

When he came home, it was usually four in the morning. I did talk to a couple of men from the DARE program a few years ago and they both thought that his being out late had something to do with the Vallejo cult. (For some reason, it seems that their gatherings usually lasted until four. Maybe it was the "bewitching hour.")

When he came in, he was usually drunk or on drugs. He had no remorse and he acted as though he didn't owe me an explanation. He also seemed to think that I didn't have any rights to question him.

I tried talking to my mom about it a couple of times, but she said that he was just out sewing his wild oats and she told me not to worry about it. (I later read that wild oats are very hard to eradicate.) So, I knew that I wouldn't get much support from her.

The night before we got married, he had a batchelor party. I didn't know anything about it until we got back from our honeymoon. His apartment was a huge mess and when I began cleaning it, I came across a cassette tape. When I played it, I could hear a bunch of voices that I didn't recognise and I was suprised to hear women's voices also. But, I had no idea who the people were.

Once, my ex took me to a party in Vallejo. He walked in and immediately he and some other people went into a bedroom. Much later, I realized that they could have been doing drugs. (If that is true, then I would imagine that he was the dealer?) I read that Darlene had parties too. And, her sister, Pam, said that Darlene would not allow her to go into the bedroom.

I also heard that her brother, Leo, had asker her to get him some marijuana the day that she was killed. So, I am assuming that both Darlene and my ex were into drugs. I also know that they both liked to go to the Coronado Inn as well.

I have heard that my ex still stays out until four in the morning. And, when he is asked where he has been, he says that he has been to a popular book store. So, I looked up their hours on the Internet. And, I found out that they close at eleven. He also said that he likes to go to a twenty-four hour grovery store and just walk around. But, five hours does seem like a long time to wonder around a grocery store. So, I asked if he ever brought any groceries home, and was told that he did not.

Well, I don't know if any of this means anything to any body. Maybe someone out there has some answers.

Madame X


Last edited by Madame X on Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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