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 June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??

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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??   Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:23 am

Rufus T Firefly wrote:
Seems that the Praters were victims of a Hells Angels execution by the Angels' enforcer, Jim-Jim Brandes. He was charged with this as part of a 1979 conspiracy trial against multiple Bay Area Angels (including Sonny Barger)....

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Z081AAAAIBAJ&sjid=P8wFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1007,6268920&dq=brandes+barger&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=chgzAAAAIBAJ&sjid=sTIHAAAAIBAJ&pg=3401,3837558&dq=alvin+prater&hl=en

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=JnszAAAAIBAJ&sjid=tjIHAAAAIBAJ&pg=6963,877754&dq=brandes+barger&hl=en


Thanks for finding that. I actually looked on Google but didnt find anything. Interesting though how the guy tried to kill cops with bombs.

Yeah, the key difference here is that the 67 couple was not involved in anything shady, but the Praters were.
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PostSubject: Re: June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??   Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:10 pm

Well, I am hoping to finally see this case possibly linked to Zodiac. I heard today from Alameda County Sheriff's dept, and they are hoping to have the Lake Herman Rd bullets in their posession this coming week for a ballistics comparison. Barring any setbacks or delays (as has happened previously) they should be able to say yes or no to the gun in this double murder being linked to gun used on Lake Herman Rd on 12/20/68. My fingers are crossed. Interestingly enough, the delay so far seems to have come from Solano County and/or the CA DOJ.
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PostSubject: Re: June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??   Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:42 pm

Good news!

Just to clarify, they don't have a gun in either case, right?

What they have is bullets from the Zodiac crime at Lake Herman Road and bullets from this Alameda County crime. And they are going to compare the bullets to see if the grooves and/or other markings show that they likely were or were not fired from the same gun.

Am I correct on that?

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PostSubject: Re: June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??   Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:50 pm

AK Wilks wrote:
Good news!

Just to clarify, they don't have a gun in either case, right?

What they have is bullets from the Zodiac crime at Lake Herman Road and bullets from this Alameda County crime. And they are going to compare the bullets to see if the grooves and/or other markings show that they likely were or were not fired from the same gun.

Am I correct on that?


The bullets from this murdered couple have the same lines & grooves mentioned in the Lake Herman Rd reports, so from the start, we know that the gun that killed Faraday & Jensen could be the same gun that killed this couple. (Unfortunately, there are several handgun types that leave these lines & grooves).The only way to verify now with certainty, is to put both the bullets from this case, side by side with the Lake Herman Rd bullets and do a microscopic comparison. The Detective told me the very first time I talked to that two of the guns on the short list as possible weapons were a jc higgins model 80 or a High standard 101 ( both are the same gun sold under 2 diff names, and they are the same weapon thought to have been used in LHR murders)

Luckily, this Detective sees enough similarities in the cases (lovers lane murders w/ no motive & girl shot in back as she ran) to take the next step. This could be the week. We will see!
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PostSubject: Morf   Thu Nov 11, 2010 7:57 pm

You should have been a detective. Well I think you are. I've never heard anything linked to Pleasanton area, other than the letter. Definetely was one remote spot back then. It's amazing cops didn't tell you, that comparison's were already done. Wouldn't you think once they got a letter back then postmarked from Pleasanton they would have checked out that area for any unsolved murders? But I guess that didn't happen. Something tells me you're gonna get a match...Wouldn't that be something?
Maybe that was Z's point of mailing from Pleasanton, to show the cops he's been around a long time, and they don't have a clue who he is....And they still didn't make the connection...That would just be food for Z's continued cop harrassment.
I didn't see an age listed for her, but with all those kids I would guess mid 30's. If they were from Mt. View/Sunnyvale Area then I would assume they went to Mt. View HS, early 50's grads. I don't think Los Altos HS was built yet, or Sunnyvale HS, or Awalt HS. There was a Catholic HS in the area, I think St. Mary's (could be wrong on that school name). Did you ever read weather she was sexually assaulted? That may be something they never divulged, just a thought...

All those kids impacted, geez.
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PostSubject: Re: June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??   Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:46 pm

bayarea60s wrote:
You should have been a detective. Well I think you are. I've never heard anything linked to Pleasanton area, other than the letter. Definetely was one remote spot back then. It's amazing cops didn't tell you, that comparison's were already done. Wouldn't you think once they got a letter back then postmarked from Pleasanton they would have checked out that area for any unsolved murders? But I guess that didn't happen. Something tells me you're gonna get a match...Wouldn't that be something?
Maybe that was Z's point of mailing from Pleasanton, to show the cops he's been around a long time, and they don't have a clue who he is....And they still didn't make the connection...That would just be food for Z's continued cop harrassment.
I didn't see an age listed for her, but with all those kids I would guess mid 30's. If they were from Mt. View/Sunnyvale Area then I would assume they went to Mt. View HS, early 50's grads. I don't think Los Altos HS was built yet, or Sunnyvale HS, or Awalt HS. There was a Catholic HS in the area, I think St. Mary's (could be wrong on that school name). Did you ever read weather she was sexually assaulted? That may be something they never divulged, just a thought...

All those kids impacted, geez.

There was NO rape or robbery, and I have spoken at great length with this Detective. He has shared alot of info about this case, and he has been open and helpful. He even sent me the photos of the bullets taken from the victims posted further back in this thread. He, and some of his fellow Detectives feel that there have been some possible cold cases in their area that may be the work of Zodiac, and they are also aware of the Zodiac letter(s) that originated in their area.

As far as this crime being previously investigated as a Zodiac crime, it has NEVER been looked at by law enforcement as a Zodiac crime, although one well known Zodiac researcher (who will remain nameless), repeatedly emailed me telling me that I was a fool, and that police had already ruled this case out as being a Zodiac crime. That could not be further from the truth, and the Detective with Alameda County assures me that it was never looked at as Zodiac related. To quote him.."I don't know what he was talking about, Alameda County has never before examined this case as being a possible Zodiac case. If it already was looked at for a Zodiac link, we wouldn't need to look at it again". I tend to believe the Detective over this well known Zodiac researcher.


The Detective also agrees with me that this was not just a couple in the wrong place at the wrong time. They were not robbed, and the female was not sexually assaulted. The fact that this couple was followed by a mysterious car, and received prank calls in the days and weeks leading up to their murders, only goes to show there was more to it. They were stalked, and killed with no motive on a secluded lovers lane. After the murders, the male victim's wife continued to receive prank calls. Mostly heavy breathing.

One reason it may have been passed over as a possible Z case, is because it happened in 1967 18 months before the first Z murders. Nobody wrote letters to the police or newspapers taking credit for it. Then again, Zodiac didnt take credit for his 12/20/68 crimes until 8 months later. Perhaps he only decided to taunt the police later on. I also think, that since this couple was stalked prior to their death, perhaps their killer knew them. That may prove to be an important clue one day.

As far as being a Detective, I certainly do not think I am. I just spent lots of time digging thru all kinds of potential Z-like cases in California. The fact this was a motiveless crime on a lovers lane, and the victim was shot in the back as she ran, just caught my attention. I may be proven wrong, who knows. But I wont be surprised if I am right either.

In regards to location, the crime area was Pleasanton/Livermore area in Alameda County. I think not one, but two letters from Zodiac were mailed from this area. Also, the xmas card to the sister of Donna Lass was also mailed from this area (i personally believe that xmas card was sent by Zodiac). Lastly, this area is pretty close to the area where Kathleen Johns was attacked and/or escaped.

I hope I hear from him next week with answers one way or the other. No matter what, I am thankful to this Detective for his open mind, and desire to solve his cold case...zodiac related, or not.
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PostSubject: Re: June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??   Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:54 pm

Great job Morf ! Very Happy

Does anyone have picture of the female victim in this case?
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PostSubject: Re: June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??   Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:16 pm

Theforeigner wrote:
Great job Morf ! Very Happy

Does anyone have picture of the female victim in this case?

I have never seen a photo of either victim. I also want to know more about where both victims worked.
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PostSubject: Re: June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??   Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:40 pm

Interesting findings for sure. I find these possible connections very interesting, potential Z-like cases in California. Yes Morf, great work....you missed your calling ;-)
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PostSubject: Re: June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??   Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:13 am

morf13 wrote:
Theforeigner wrote:
Great job Morf ! Very Happy

Does anyone have picture of the female victim in this case?

I have never seen a photo of either victim. I also want to know more about where both victims worked.

Could you maybe ask the police, that you are working with on the case, if they have a photo? and other info on the victims?
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PostSubject: Re: June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??   Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:04 am

Theforeigner wrote:
morf13 wrote:
Theforeigner wrote:
Great job Morf ! Very Happy

Does anyone have picture of the female victim in this case?

I have never seen a photo of either victim. I also want to know more about where both victims worked.

Could you maybe ask the police, that you are working with on the case, if they have a photo? and other info on the victims?

The problem with this case is, much of the original reports & info was lost during storage & moving of offices. Sadly, that is very common with old cold cases. Luckily, the key thing that they did not lose was the bullets from the victims. That is the best thing that they could have still. They also know who some of the original Detectives are, and they know the man that found one of the bodies (I believe he was a park ranger of some sort, it is one of the articles I posted).

As of a couple months ago, the Detective had recently spoken to relatives of the victims just to touch base with them, and make sure he had their current contact info. He did not mention the fact that he is doing a ballistics comparison to the Zodiac crime. The reason for that is, he does not want to get their hopes out if there is no connection made. If this is NOT a Zodiac crime, it gives him no real additional evidence to work with, and no real additional hope of the case being solved. If he does link this to Zodiac, that opens up alot more possibilities for obtaining info, and at that time he will try to get everything he can from the Families. Remember, the Family members are the same people that reported that both victims were getting prank heavy breathing calls, and told police that the victims were also being followed by an unknown man. After the murders, the widow of the male victim continued to get heavy breathing calls. You may recall, we were discussing this widow as possibly being the San Jose widow mentioned in the unconfirmed Zodiac letter.

The best thing for the Zodiac case would be for this case to be linked to Zodiac. That would open up new avenues, clues, witnesses, and evidence for the first time in a long time. And this Detective has an open mind, and wants to see his old cases solved, so keep your fingers crossed that this is a Z case.

If it is a Z case, he will then gather as much evidence and facts from the family members as he can, and hopefully, we can get info like photos, and employment, etc.

Foreigner, I think (but cant remember) I sent you info about these victims, and I think you said they had lived in TX prior to CA. I can def give you all the info I have to see if you can dig up anymore about them or their Families.
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PostSubject: Morf & Co.   Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:25 am

This could be the first time where Z is linked to another case, other than what his letters reported. This could be huge. The phone calls to family is, way too familiar. Who else does this?
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PostSubject: Re: June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??   Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:14 am

bayarea60s wrote:
This could be the first time where Z is linked to another case, other than what his letters reported. This could be huge. The phone calls to family is, way too familiar. Who else does this?

I totally agree Bayarea. Whether Z killed them or not, you simply can not dismiss the fact that both people were receiving prank calls and being followed leading up to their deaths. That is very creepy. I think whether Z did this or not, the couple was being stalked, plain and simple. The part that makes this case messy is that the couple were having an affair, and both were married to other people. A jealous spouse comes to mind, but the spouses were cleared. So that leaves us with no motive since they were not robbed, and she was not raped.

This case is a blend of both the Lake Herman Rd attack and the Kathleen Johns attack.

Similarity to Lake Herman Rd-
*Couple attacked on lovers lane
*Male quickly shot and killed
*Female shot in the back as she ran

Similarity to Johns attack-
*Killer took female victim from where he initially found her to another spot

Who knows, maybe Z planned to do the same with Betty Lou Jensen, but she surprised him and ran. The area where she was taken to and killed was a regional park, much like Berryessa. I think this would be an area where Z would be comfortable as he probably spent time in the outdoors and likely knew the area.

And remember, as demonstrated by the map photo below, this couple was killed pretty close to where the Johns attack happened. The only thing that separates them is a large wooded tract of land, or forrest. There is a road named TESLA RD that actually cuts thru this forrest. You could drive right down Tesla Rd from Pleasanton, and wind up in Tracy, which is jost northwest of where the Johns attack happened! Its a light colored yellow, just above the red arrow on the photo below, you can see Tesla Rd. If you drove down Tesla Rd, you would pass Poppy Ridge Golf course (not sure if it was around back in 67) and Carnegie State vehicular Rec Area. As you get closer to the town of Tracy, Tesla Rd turns into Corral Hollow Rd. As a matter of fact, the address for Carnegie State vehicular Rec area is actually IN TRACY!. Lastly, you can clearly see highway 132 in the photo below. That is the highway that Johns was attacked on...so we are very close in locations.
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PostSubject: Re: June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??   Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:58 am


This is the guy that phoned police alerting them to the double murder.

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PostSubject: Morf   Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:13 pm

I've always thought by the time Z came out of his murderer's closet, he was well seasoned in killing folks. I'd love to have a database that shows all open homicides between '63 - '70, that were done on a Friday/Saturday night. I think we'd find many potential Z murders.
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PostSubject: Re: June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??   Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:23 pm

bayarea60s wrote:
This could be the first time where Z is linked to another case, other than what his letters reported. This could be huge. The phone calls to family is, way too familiar. Who else does this?

The EAR/ONS made heavy breather and taunting calls to victims and families.

Also, the twists and grooves in these Alameda bullets - which match LHR - also match the Santa Barbara 1963 couples murder of Domingos and Edwards.

Also of interest (to me anyway) this Alameda attack happens when a Z suspect starts teaching in California. A Z suspect who owned .22 rifles and pistols and used Super X ammo... Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??   Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:26 pm

If this crime is proven to be Zodiac, I assure you...this Detective will shake up the Zodiac pool of POI's and suspects, and will take a look at all possible angles. The best thing that can happen for the Z community is if this turns out to be the work of Z!
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PostSubject: Re: June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??   Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:28 pm

bayarea60s wrote:
I've always thought by the time Z came out of his murderer's closet, he was well seasoned in killing folks. I'd love to have a database that shows all open homicides between '63 - '70, that were done on a Friday/Saturday night. I think we'd find many potential Z murders.

I agree 100%! I started off thinking Z killed a handful of people, and then slipped off into oblivion. Now, I am not so sure. I think he has a steady flow of victims all over CA, and possibly in other states.

We can look at a bunch of the possible Z suspects listed in this forum and find some promising ones. Seagull and I were both kicking one around today. She is very knowledgeable with murders in the San Jose area!
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PostSubject: Re: June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??   Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:29 pm

I agree. Lets keep our fingers crossed.
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PostSubject: Re: June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??   Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:15 pm

morf13 wrote:
If this crime is proven to be Zodiac, I assure you...this Detective will shake up the Zodiac pool of POI's and suspects, and will take a look at all possible angles. The best thing that can happen for the Z community is if this turns out to be the work of Z!

Morf -

Also, the twists and grooves in these Alameda .22 LR Super X bullets - which match Zodiac LHR 12/20/68 - also match the Santa Barbara 1963 couples murder of Domingos and Edwards.

Heard anything new on this case, or you think it might not come until after Xmas?
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PostSubject: Re: June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??   Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:53 pm

AK Wilks wrote:
morf13 wrote:
If this crime is proven to be Zodiac, I assure you...this Detective will shake up the Zodiac pool of POI's and suspects, and will take a look at all possible angles. The best thing that can happen for the Z community is if this turns out to be the work of Z!

Morf -

Also, the twists and grooves in these Alameda .22 LR Super X bullets - which match Zodiac LHR 12/20/68 - also match the Santa Barbara 1963 couples murder of Domingos and Edwards.

Heard anything new on this case, or you think it might not come until after Xmas?

I am getting discouraged. They (Alameda) are meeting delays and resistance. I still get updates, but nothing new. I will approach them again after the holidays
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PostSubject: Morf   Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:01 pm

It's the Holiday season so cops get even busier during this time...Increased DUI's, robberies, etc. so don't get discouraged. Hey if this cop has seen that there very well may be a ballistics match, he's not going to just blow it off until he's sure, one way or the other. It would in all likelihood be the biggest case of his career. He'll get back to it...
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PostSubject: Re: June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??   Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:51 pm

I always check whether there was a new or a full moon.Dead on for a new moon 6/8/67.

Parks as we know were sometimes involved in a Z attack.

There is one pistol that CII and according to their weapon list was not tested for LHR. It is a McMillan Olympic rapid fire High Standard .22 .It is very possible this gun was used at LHR,and possibly SB but,of course that is in limbo.

Wm.McMillan won the summer 1960 Olympic rapid fire contest with the pistol in question.It was in the NRA magazines and publications for some time and members noted it as it was used and won in the Rome Olympics! It was coveted amongst NRA members at the time or 1960's.

Note: I wondered for some time where BD got one of his aliases.It was McMillan.He was a very avid NRA member and read their publications.He told the authorities he was a' good shot.'I learned he practiced all the time while with CM's group.His friend was a weapons expert from Canada.The BRS gun may have been Canadian. They had bought guns under assumed names July 1969.BD's was a 9 mm.He said he 'owned a gun that was a 9 mm,but looked like a .45.'

Just musing.Anyway,I hope they will test the McMillan .22 .It is an excellent candidate for LHR and possibly SB.
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PostSubject: Guns   Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:36 am

Bruce3, You are right the 9mil and the 45 look very much alike. I still believe that the gun used to control Shepard and Hartnell, was the same 9mil that was used in either the Stine shooting, or Lake Herman rd shooting. They were not the same 9mil used at both crimes. ( I know you know that Bruce3, but the new-comers may not)
Hartnell could have thought it was a 45 pointed at him ,instead of a 9mil.

The name that BD used which was the same name as the gun, is pretty compelling.
The word that jumped out at me was "Olympic". A close friend or relative of my poi, wore a jacket into my work in the late 80's, that had the words "Olympic" drinking team on the back of his yellow jacket.
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PostSubject: Re: June 8, 1967 Alameda County Zodiac Victims??   Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:48 pm

Prof.Betts!
Hi. I think that the same weapon was used at LB was used at PH. Z never used the same weapon twice, but at LB he must have been prepared to use it,but didn't have to once he had the couple tied.
I think this precaution of reexaming the knots CS tied-which she purposely tied in a very loose manner - was from SB where the couple escaped and ran. Indications are that Robert fought ("some of them fought it was horrible"said the 10/5/70 postcard)for a short time with the attacker so Z wanted to avoid that at LB -a 'fullfillment' crime based on a failed past experience.

It seems Z had the kind of personality that if he failed he made up for it in the future.Here Johns had escaped from him and months later he states she and her child were at the top of his "little list."He was full of revenge so he did the next best thing in his mind and burned her wagon.
This is why I see that it was possible for Lass in or around June of 1970 when she first moved to LT to be his 'victim 12,'but for some reason he was not able to attack her until September of that same year,but he called her at that time on the 3/22/71 card 'victim 12'.He used the word "sought"12 not caught!
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