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 Troy Houghton: The Minuteman

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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptyTue Sep 07, 2010 10:38 pm

I would expect that the Z's handwriting would be somewhat different than his regular handwriting for say a check or a note to his kids school...for I'd imagine when he wrote his letters to the newspapers he would be either in an excited state or perhaps even an altered state.

I noticed some folks think that the Z's most normal writing would be what he wrote on the side of a car door, for he would have less time to disguise his handwriting traits, but I would ask any of you with a little bit of a pot belly to go out and pretend to write on the side of your car after say washing your dog, I wouldn't want ya to go out and pretend to be the Z and then try writing on a car. LOL!

It would be the less disguised printing I agree, but I don't think it would really be too significant if it didn't look like the letters where he obviously had time and some level of excitement making them. That said...I think the content is the answer to what is going on in his mind at the time of writing be it organized or disorganized.

I keep thinking about the info that Betty Houghton related that Troy had been sick and he thought he might have been drugged (poisoned?). Is that not an odd thing for a "normal" person to assume when he feels ill? I know I don't assume I have been drugged or poisoned when I get ill... but paranoid people frequently do say this.

However, he sure had reasons to be paranoid...legitimately.

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Azazel
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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptySun Sep 12, 2010 4:52 am

Okey this is how Rand wants it. Everyone should discard any information
about anyone that might have something to do with anything surrounding the zodiac case.
They dont have to look any further. Lets all be amazed at Troy Houghton.
Rand believe that saying the same thing over and over is equal to more quantity of information.
Rand its ridicoulos and you know it. Promoting your POI on anothers thread? First time?
Perhaps Zodiac in your imagination is Troy. That the kind of guy Zodiac was. In your mind.
Let people have their own imagination about who or what the Zodiac was.
I was about to post this on the Otis Chandler thread. But I dont want to give that thread any more space for arguing over Troy or not Troy.
You claim to be very educated. Well, then act like it.
If you dont understand what I mean, I´ll tell you.
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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptySun Sep 12, 2010 5:21 am

Azazel wrote:
Okey this is how Rand wants it. Everyone should discard any information
about anyone that might have something to do with anything surrounding the zodiac case.
They dont have to look any further. Lets all be amazed at Troy Houghton.
Rand believe that saying the same thing over and over is equal to more quantity of information.
Rand its ridicoulos and you know it. Promoting your POI on anothers thread? First time?
Perhaps Zodiac in your imagination is Troy. That the kind of guy Zodiac was. In your mind.
Let people have their own imagination about who or what the Zodiac was.
I was about to post this on the Otis Chandler thread. But I dont want to give that thread any more space for arguing over Troy or not Troy.
You claim to be very educated. Well, then act like it.
If you dont understand what I mean, I´ll tell you.

Azazel, I totally understand how you feel. I couldn't sleep, so cked the Z forum, and was quite upset at seeing Rand post his POI theory in
The Otis Thread. It's ok for him to ask a question in there, or point something out IN a nice way that he disagrees with. BUT he took it again
one step too far...and took it back to his minute man theory. Rand, this is your thread. You have a few followers who follow this. But leave the
rest of the guys alone. Rand, I feel Morf has warned you about this in the past. I don't get why you don't get it. Back to the chalk board.
Zam*
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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptySun Sep 12, 2010 7:16 am

Let's end this now!!!!!!!

Effective immediately, NO THREAD HIJACKING IS ALLOWED!

DO NOT POST ABOUT THE MINUTEMEN OR WHATEVER OTHER SUSPECT(S) YOU HAVE ,IN ANOTHER THREAD ABOUT ANOTHER SUSPECT!
I thought I went over this before. Rand, would you like it if someone came into your TH topic, and started saying why Arthur Leigh Allen was a better suspect and started posting stuff about him in your TH thread? No, of course not, since there already exists a topic about ALA.

I dont want to go thru this again! I hope that is understood. I really dont want to be "that Guy", who is constantly deleting and editing threads (and eventually banning members if needed). I dont want to go over the same things over n over. Keep your TH & MINUTEMEN, AND RAITHBY STUFF IN YOUR OWN THREAD!
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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptySun Sep 12, 2010 11:06 am

What's wrong with all of you! AK and the person who started the thread brought in TH and I commented on it. What's your problem? Look at the conversation. I didn't bring up TH or TK or anyone other than Otis. The person who started the thread and then AK brought them in. GIVE ME A FREAKEN BREAK!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptySun Sep 12, 2010 11:14 am

rand wrote:
What's wrong with all of you! AK and the person who started the thread brought in TH and I commented on it. What's your problem? Look at the conversation. I didn't bring up TH or TK or anyone other than Otis. The person who started the thread and then AK brought them in. GIVE ME A FREAKEN BREAK!!!

Whomever is responsible, from this moment on, please just dont do it.
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AK Wilks
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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptySun Sep 12, 2010 11:22 am

rand wrote:
What's wrong with all of you! AK and the person who started the thread brought in TH and I commented on it. What's your problem? Look at the conversation. I didn't bring up TH or TK or anyone other than Otis. The person who started the thread and then AK brought them in. GIVE ME A FREAKEN BREAK!!!

IBF sais this "Funny that trained profilers with proven past records are ridiculed for the ridiculous theory(IMHO) that Z was a career criminal like Houghton, Kaczinski, etc, etc.

These people were most certainly the first suspects examined and cleared.

How is it that suspects like these were stupid enough to get caught multiple times from crimes as themselves, yet got away with 4-5 murders, 3 ciphers and 20+ letters without so much as a hint??!! Please."

I then made a general comment about suspects with criminal backgrounds or anti-society views (TK, BD, TH, RG). I think it was two sentences long and did NOT get into specifics about any POI.

Then Rand posted several paragraphs about TH, with pictures and graphics.

Can you see the difference?

Bottom line is a lot of people do not like reading about POI's or theories in another post thread. We try to keep things seperate here. At one point we had a suspect comparison thread, but that ran its course.

Perhaps IBF made a small mistake by opening the door here, and I compounded it by responding. But both of us were talking in general terms about suspects with criminal background vs. clean. That certainly doe NOT open the door to posting paragraphs and pictures about a POI. The problem is if we allow that then the threads lose meaning and everyone starts posting everywhere.

Some people just don't like TH as a suspect, or TK, or BD. So they can read what they want and not have to read what they don't want.

As Morf says, you don't want someone coming into the TH thread, which you have worked hard on, and start posting about how crappy a suspect TH is and how great a suspect Tarrance, or Allen, or whoever is.

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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptySun Sep 12, 2010 11:31 am

I commented on Otis and Otis alone. Then the person who started the thread commented about how my observations are tainted and unimportant because all I care about is TH. Then they commented on my suspect. Then you brought in TH. ALL OF THIS WITHOUT ME HAVING SAID A WORD ABOUT TH OR RAY. SO IF I DID THAT, SURE, IT WOULD BE FINE FOR THE PERSON TO COME BACK AT ME. AND IF THEY DID, YOU CAN BE DAMN SURE THAT YOU, ZAM, AND MORF WOULDN'T HAVE RAISED AN EYEBROW OR SAID A DARN THING ABOUT IT. Interesting how when I made a comment, you said it was sarcastic. So I deleted those parts. Then the person who started the post came back at me with snarkiness, and not a word about it.
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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptySun Sep 12, 2010 11:52 am

I appreciate you removing the sarcasm when asked.

I don't think IBF responsed with snarkiness, just a blanket statement about suspects with criminal records that I responded to in a general way. My mistake. I did not mean to open the door that way, so that you would post paragraphs and pictures about your POI.

We all made a mistake.

Lets learn and move on.

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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptySun Sep 12, 2010 11:58 am

Fine. Btw, when I posted my "solution" to the 340, you posted your solutions on the thread (and I didn't mention your solutions first). THERE WAS NOT ONE COMPLAINT FROM ME. AND NO COMPLAINTS FROM ZAM OR MORF ABOUT IT. LOOK AT THE THREAD AND SEE FOR YOURSELF. So the answer to your question and Morf's and Zam's is: NO, I WOULDN'T COMPLAIN, AND NO ONE ELSE WOULD EITHER. IT DIDN'T BOTHER ME ONE BIT. THE DOUBLE-STANDARD HERE, DOES BOTHER ME.
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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptySun Sep 12, 2010 12:02 pm

You said if anyone has a better 340 solution post it.

OK, we have beat this horse to death I think.
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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptySun Sep 12, 2010 12:08 pm

AK Wilks wrote:
You said if anyone has a better 340 solution post it.

I did not (I just looked back and read the thread). But, like I said, it didn't bother me one bit that you posted your solutions. Comparisons are essential in the assessment of competing theories.
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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptySun Sep 12, 2010 3:02 pm

Dont take it the wrong way Rand.
I posted several times that I appreciate and do think you have done a great job with TH.
And I dont have any feelings about TH as the Zodiac. Could be. But can also be any one else.
You know that the Zodiac isnt caught. And there is no evidence that have ruled out anyone.
We know the Zodiac is a male. Thats it. As long as the POI is a male there is no point telling people they have the wrong guy.
If there isnt any evidence or alibi that place them somewhere else on the dates.
The part that people responded to your postings over there have mostly with you doing so on a regular basis.
(I know, you have done alot of improvments on that department.)
Ak knows I got very upset with him also. When he did the same way earlier.
He know because he deleted my post. hehe. And he was right to do so. I was over the line.
I think Ak still have a little tendency to put in a little Ted here and there.
In honesty. People should take a minute and think if they are really intrested in the thread they are visiting.
The intentions shines right through. My intentions are that you understand that I complained over your action not your work.

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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptySun Sep 12, 2010 3:44 pm

rand wrote:
AK Wilks wrote:
You said if anyone has a better 340 solution post it.

I did not (I just looked back and read the thread). But, like I said, it didn't bother me one bit that you posted your solutions. Comparisons are essential in the assessment of competing theories.

Well you did. See below. I also think comparisons can be interesting at times, but only within our rules. Otherwise everyone with a POI brings it up in every thread.

rand wrote:
morf13 wrote:
AK Wilks wrote:
I think he is moving, mixing and matching Morf.

He is moving them into a new order, and as there are enough letters available, you can pretty much create any message you wish.

It is an interesting and creative idea, but the code aspect does not match what Z did before or after, and the crude, obscene and anti-semitic language matches nothing in Zodiac.

BTW, was Paul Stine actually Jewish?

Okay, so we can all mix & match, and make our own messages...I see. So you can make messages like "eat at joe's. Try the veal" or "I am the Zodiac and I could go for a snickers bar".

If we have to change what Z wrote, we are defeating his message. He wanted people to know what he had to say. He got off on it. I dont do much with ciphers, but I cant understand why people choose to alter what Z wrote. There would be no way to tell if it was correct. If it was solved as Z wrote it, and it made a coherent message, then it would probably be a correct solution.

OKAY, THANKS FOR THE PRAISE FOR MY HARD WORK.
SO YOU THINK YOU CAN MIX AND MATCH AND MAKE ANY MESSAGES YOU'D LIKE. OKAY. I'M SURE YOU CAN. GO AHEAD AND USE THE FIRST SEVEN LINES AND SHOW ME WHAT YOU GET. SHOW US HOW CONVINCING YOUR SOLUTION IS. WHAT WILL IT SAY: EAT AT JOE'S AND TRY THE VEAL? GREAT!!! SO WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THE ZODIAC CASE. MY MIND BOGGLES AT THE NONSENSE THAT PEOPLE PUT FORTH BECAUSE THE 340 IS NOT A CIPHER. GO AHEAD AND BACK UP YOUR WORDS AND VIEW THAT YOU CAN GET ANYTHING FROM THE 340. ALL I'VE SUBSTITUTED IS BOXES FOR THE E's (IT'S OBVIOUS THAT THERE AREN'T ENOUGH "E"s TO MAKE SENTENCES) AND A TRIANGLE FOR "THE." THE REST ARE JUST UPSIDE DOWN AND SIDEWAYS VERSIONS OF THE CHARACTERS.
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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptySun Sep 12, 2010 5:17 pm

One small clarification for the record; Paul Stine was not Jewish.
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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptySun Sep 12, 2010 10:04 pm

What was the question?
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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptyMon Sep 13, 2010 12:15 pm

Of course, Stine wasn't Jewish. But Z thought that Stine, which sounds like Stein, was Jewish. If Z was TH, that's precisely the kind of bonehead mistake he'd make.

AK: I wrote: SO YOU THINK YOU CAN MIX AND MATCH AND MAKE ANY MESSAGES YOU'D LIKE. OKAY. I'M SURE YOU CAN. GO AHEAD AND USE THE FIRST SEVEN LINES AND SHOW ME WHAT YOU GET. SHOW US HOW CONVINCING YOUR SOLUTION IS.

It was a challenge for you to backup your words that you can get anything out of the 340 if you treat it as an anagram. You didn't take up my challenge. Instead, you posted your "cipher," "nonanagram" "solutions." I issued a challenge and, as is always the case when people say that they can get anything out of the 340 by treating it as an anagram, you didn't backup your words by showing me.

Here's what I got by treating the characters as an anagram. It amazes me still that no one thought this was a convincing solution (all I got was ridicule), while "nonsense" solutions -- ones that say nothing coherent or relevant to the case -- are treated as if they're promising and often get responses like Shocked . Why? Because they're cipher solutions. Go figure. I'd bet anything that this is essentially correct to the midway point of the 340 (there are probably some minor errors, like TAB and TOP PIECE):

Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 Scan0052

Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 Scan0048
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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptyTue Sep 14, 2010 12:43 am

TH flashed young girls. Here's a video about a young girl murdered in Santa Clara in Oct. 1969.

http://diva.sfsu.edu/bundles/190094
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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptyTue Sep 14, 2010 1:23 am

Interesting.

That is called a suburb of San Jose.

I just found a reference in the FBI file to a 11/21/69 possible Zodiac letter to the San Jose PD:

https://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/unconfirmed-zodiac-letters-mailings-general-discussion-f6/san-jose-zodiac-letter-t490.htm
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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptyTue Sep 14, 2010 1:41 am

The plot thickens...
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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptyTue Sep 14, 2010 3:55 am

rand wrote:
TH flashed young girls. Here's a video about a young girl murdered in Santa Clara in Oct. 1969.

http://diva.sfsu.edu/bundles/190094

So TH flashed young girls and a young girl was murdered in California?
Is there anymore connections? I can't see how anyone could connect this
murder to TH with what you are posting.
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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptyTue Sep 14, 2010 9:37 am

I just think that the video is interesting, and the fact that TH flashed young girls makes it relevant to this thread. Did he do it? Who knows? I'm throwing it out there. At the very least, it fills in our knowledge of a murder that occurred at the time of Z's murders and was thought to have a possible (however, remote) connection to his crimes.
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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptyTue Sep 14, 2010 9:42 am

Rand, it seems to me that if Z were a "frequent flasher", especially of children, he would have had a MUCH higher probability of getting apprehended.
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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptyTue Sep 14, 2010 9:57 am

Unless he started killing the young girls that he flashed.
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PostSubject: Re: Troy Houghton: The Minuteman   Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 EmptyTue Sep 14, 2010 7:08 pm

Someone on another thread suggested that TH was dead before the Z crimes and this (obviously) rules him out.
Let me address this.
1. TH said in his last interview (with Harry Jones) before he disappeared that he was going "underground" and would start killing people on a list he had.
2. DePugh declared in 1967, that he was dividing the MM into two groups. Those who were known as MM would be going underground as strike teams (ready to retaliate with murder if DePugh was assassinated or jailed). Those who were not known members of the MM would front the Patriot Party.
3. In 1967, the MM CALIFORNIA newsletter asked its members: Are you willing to leave your family forever?

1967 CALIFORNIA PATRIOT PARTY NEWSLETTER

Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 Mm_cal12

LEAVE YOUR FAMILY FOREVER. This is what I believe TH did: gave up his family and made the ultimate sacrifice by being an underground guerrilla warrior for the MM cause. He had lots of aliases; he could stay underground until he died, which is what I believe he did.
4. No body was ever discovered.
5. The two people most responsible for the story of TH's death were, as it turns out, related to TH. One was his step sister, Nedra, the other was her husband, Lester Molyneaux. Nobody knew this fact until Seagull discovered it. Not even Bettie, TH's wife, knew that Nedra was TH's step sister. (I told her over the phone and she was dumb founded).
6. There were many different and conflicting stories about how DePugh "murdered" TH; he was shot, he was drugged, etc. Also many different stories about where the body was disposed of, e.g., in the river, in a mine shaft in the Ozarks, buried near a tree, etc.
The bottom line is that nobody can get their story straight. There were also different conflicting stories about TH's disappearance in general. Read this letter from Bettie to Harry several months after TH disappeared:

Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 Bettie10
Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 Bettie11

And this from Baumgardner in 1968:
Troy Houghton: The Minuteman - Page 23 Baumga10
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