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 Fred Manalli

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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:53 am

There is another site about Zodiac. I dont know what it is about because it is in another language. It definitely mentions Manalli,and has side by side writing comparisons of Z,which I think were created by TRAV. Do you know anything about this TRAV?

http://unsolved.cba.pl/index.php?topic=57.0

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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:02 am

Looking back thru this stuff,its amazing how much Manalli has in common with Zodiac.

Both used the words SATERICAL/SATIRICAL

Both used the term 'Hang by their Thumbs'/'Hang by your thumbs'

Manalli referred to the Author Joyce, and Joyce used a ton of misspellings purposely in his book. Many of these same exact misspellings were used by Z in his letters.

Zodiac use dthe term 'slaves in Paradise', at the same time, Manalli was having a short story published called 'Paradise,its a nice place'

If Manalli was not Z, they were on the same wavelength amd getting signals from each other, its just real spooky. Throw in the fact Manalli wrote of his illness & depression,and talked of doing harm to himself and others. Then the fact that a day or two after he died,the SF personal ad was placed that read..."Zodiac, your partner is in deep real estate".....Its just all too creepy and too coincidental. If there was anybody that I think may have been involved in a 'team Zodiac',Manalli could be that guy

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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:42 pm

Morf, somewhere I read that Manalli was a latent homosexual although I know he was married. My newest theory is Zodiac consisted of Manalli and Aubrey Dwight Whats-his-name. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:55 pm

patinky wrote:
Morf, somewhere I read that Manalli was a latent homosexual although I know he was married. My newest theory is Zodiac consisted of Manalli and Aubrey Dwight Whats-his-name. Laughing

Fred referred to himself by a females name,or female version of Fred,I forget what he called himself..Frederica or something? I know Seagull remembers

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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:06 pm

I find it odd that activity stopped after Manalli died and that suspected mailings stopped after Aubrey D. Bailey (is that his last name?) died. One or the other of the two were in the right places at the right times and your finding about Zodiac, your partner is in deep real estate blows my mind. I do believe in coincidences but ......
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:12 pm

patinky wrote:
I find it odd that activity stopped after Manalli died and that suspected mailings stopped after Aubrey D. Bailey (is that his last name?) died. One or the other of the two were in the right places at the right times and your finding about Zodiac, your partner is in deep real estate blows my mind. I do believe in coincidences but ......

That finding about the ad that read 'Zodiac your partner is in deep real estate',was not my finding,but somebody elses. I cant remember who it was that realized that the ad ran a day or two after his death. But yeah,its an interesting ad. I checked with Kevin Fagan from the SFPD and he looked around, but found out that the records from back then about who placed that ad are no longer available

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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:13 pm

I think you remembered correctly, Morf. Manalli does seem to have gender identity issues for sure. I did speak with my guy at the Sonoma sheriff's office about the DNA. They were trying to exhume Manalli to get a sample because they have DNA from Kim Allen's case and Manalli was the chief suspect in her murder. There was a problem with getting the permission from his siblings though and I do not know if that has been resolved.
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:14 pm

It was the Foreigner that put two and two together about that ad.
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:28 pm

When it comes to Manelli, Seagull is your best source for information.

Regarding his strange marriage, IF I remember correctly, his wife divorced Freddie, married his business partner and things seemed fine and dandy......no jealousy, anger,etc. If Manelli was gay, that would explain why he was not so concerned about his wife remarrying.

I THINK it was Don Emblem she married. I am going by memory now, and that is about as dependable as a car without a battery.

There is one spot posted that Manelli talked about doing harm to himself (and others)........I wonder if these thoughts had any bearings on the fatal accident?
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:55 pm

Seagull or anyone...

Can anyone take a shot at summarizing a case against Manalli for us newbies? I completedly missed this thread somehow and just can't force myself to browse through 58 pages of discussion to find out about him.

Thanks!
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:22 pm

entropy wrote:
Seagull or anyone...

Can anyone take a shot at summarizing a case against Manalli for us newbies? I completedly missed this thread somehow and just can't force myself to browse through 58 pages of discussion to find out about him.

Thanks!

Entropy,do yourself a favor and start reading thru it,and you will see all 50+ pages are worth reading!

But summary:

*Manalli brought up as a suspect in Santa Rosa murders,and also mentioned in Graysmith book,and how supposedly,ALA knew him from Santa Rosa Jr College where manalli taught(no idea if true)

*Manalli was killed in a car accident in 1976(maybe suicide by car?)Upon his death, a woman(I forget who)mentioned he may be a zodiac suspect and that he had been to Riverside(We checked and found no Riverside connections)

*Seagull got some writing samples,and I noticed a couple of similarities which I asked Trav to look at. He started to spot some things that Manalli shared with Zodiac.

*After reading thru large portions of letters written by Manalli, we found many things that matched Zodiac closely.

Both Manalli and Z used the term saterical/satirical.

Z wrote "hang by their thumbs" Manalli wrote "hang by your thumbs"

Z wrote "slaves in PARADISE" at the same time, Manalli had a short story being published called "Paradise,its a nice place"

The common words,phrases,etc between Manalli & Z are uncanny

*Manalli wrote about author James Joyce. James Joyce wrote a book in which he purposely misspelled words. Zodiac used many of those same words with the same misspellings.

*Manalli wrote about harming others and himself as well,and about having mental illness

The 50+ pages are interesting,and Trav does some nice close up side by sides of manalli's and Zodiacs writing. Manalli is a suspect in the Santa Rosa murders,or at least in one of them. He was killed in that 1976 accident,and within 48 hours of his death,a personal ad ran in the SF Chronicle that read 'ZODIAC, YOUR PARTNER IS IN DEEP REAL ESTATE',which many people took to mean, your partner is 6ft under. Nobody knows who placed the ad or why.

Again,read the 50+ pages,there many interesting things in it.

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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:31 pm

morf13 wrote:
There is another site about Zodiac. I dont know what it is about because it is in another language. It definitely mentions Manalli,and has side by side writing comparisons of Z,which I think were created by TRAV. Do you know anything about this TRAV?

http://unsolved.cba.pl/index.php?topic=57.0

Nope first I've seen it.

I tried using google translate on it form the Polish but couldn't make much sense of it other than someone saying that the stuff I presented on it here then posted in ZKF looked interesting but I can't tell much more from it. They used the term "pre-writing" which may be a translation thing or a term I haven't heard of.

The reply seems to indicate that the poster thinks Manalli was too tall.

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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:43 pm

Entropy, I got about 160 pages of copies of letters written between Manalli and a former instructor of his when he was at the University of Illinois. The letters span in time from the late 1950's until Manalli's death in 1976. A real treasure trove! The letters coupled with the works he had published, mostly in literary magazines, painted a pretty good picture of the guy. We really had a lot of material to work with on him.

Manalli also taught at San Quentin Prison while studying for his masters degree at San Francisco State College. He lived in San Francisco for a few years as well as living in Sonoma County.
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:51 pm

Thanks, folks. Smile I'm not trying to cheat by just reading the cliff notes but it was just a bit daunting to try and figure out how this guy came to everyone's attention. Sounds interesting...
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:52 pm

entropy wrote:
Thanks, folks. Smile I'm not trying to cheat by just reading the cliff notes but it was just a bit daunting to try and figure out how this guy came to everyone's attention. Sounds interesting...

It does seem daunting with that many pages in the thread but I went back earlier myself and started skimming through from page 1. Even just skimming you get a feel for how much 'stuff' this thread generated from literary connections to films. You also get a feel for how the 'stuff' just seemed to keep presenting itself.

Looking again at the writing I still find myself wondering about it. When I look at the early comps I totally understand why Tahoe and Pat and maybe a few other couldn't see what the hell fuss was. They aren't very well explained and I'm not sure they could have been at the time. I used words like line up and similar too without really explaining in detail what that meant. Not sure I was able too.

I look back at it now and see things that I would say aren't matches and probably thought weren't matches at the time but that is in regard to the characters themselves but there was and is (I think) something else happening here. The so called similarities were more than likely, in those respects, concerning other factors such as spacing and the relation of space around the characters and words to other instances of space usage and angles of certain strokes.

When Morf first sent a writing sample from Seagull I thought - Nahhhhh. I still think that in regard how it looks compared to Zodiac's writing - it doesn't look like it. There was 'something' about it though. I think that something was all the little similarities that I've presented. Perhaps when taken as a whole, these little similarities amount to what you could term an over-all 'feel'. It's this 'feel' that I chased in regards Manalli's writing. I wanted to find out what it was and why I couldn't ignore it.

As it stand now, this culminated in the last series of comps taking examples of Zodiac's letters (including the Bates stuff) and creating an alphabet from them. Then taking Manalli's writings and producing what I considered to be the closest matches that I could find and compiling a comparative alphabet.

This may have been the answer I was looking for. What was it about this guy's writing that I was finding interesting. It was, for me, that taking a broad spectrum of Zodiac's writing including disputed ones such as the Bates stuff and then being able to reproduce pretty similar alphabets for them all from one source. I found this quite compelling but I still don't know why lol. It probably answers what it was that I found interesting but beyond that I don't really know what it says. This may be possible to do with another POI's writing if there are enough exemplars to work from.

I'm not finished with his writing yet. There are still things to look at and I will probably review what I have presented here and look at it again with slightly fresher eyes. If just to satisfy myself.

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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:20 pm

Manalli used both 3 stroke Ks and 2strokes

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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:48 pm

I was looking through the Manalli stuff the other night and even though I've seen this before and others may have mentioned it, I found myself wondering if it tells us anything about the thinking of the man himself - that he would choose to live on a street that was the same as his name albiet a slightly different spelling.


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PostSubject: MANALLI CLIFFNOTES   Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:33 pm

MANALLI CLIFFNOTES
I am making list of 'cliffnotes' about Manlli that I find the most interesting personally, here's the start of it. I think this will save somebody from looking at 50+ pages of manalli stuff,although I recommend reading it all:






The first letter K is from Z, and the second is from Manalli:








Both Z & Manalli oddly break up the word SOMETHING into SOME THING


Another example of Z & Manalli breaking up a word at the same spot in the word-

Some more from Finnegan's Wake by Joyce, who Manalli referenced,the same exact misspellings used by Z.

"took up a jiminy and all the lilipath ways to Woeman's"

leaden be light, lather be dry and it be drownd

For the most part,Manalli used 2 stroke K’s,but also used 3 strokes as seen here, it clearly is a perfect 3stroke,similar to Z-



When Mannali writes about a total or numbers, here's how he writes it:


Look familiar?






Every time I re-read Manalli's stuff, something jumps out. Like this-



The word 'PUBLIC' from both Z & Manalli, notice how both words have a curve uner them, or the word seems to rainbow.



This shows what I'll call the half W. I've seen this mentioned as a spelling error on occasion but it's not, it's just an incomplete w. And good old Fred has one too.



Now this is really interesting. In this 1962 letter to Author Dan Curley,Manalli's mentor(and man crush i think) ,Manalli asks Curley about a story of Curley's called "THE MANHUNT"... The first thing I thought of, is this story like THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME???


I tried to search for the words,text, or storyline for THE MANHUNT, but I could not find it. But then I came across this book published in 1968 called STUDIES IN THE SHORT STORY.

Studies in the short story,
New York, Holt, Rinehart and Winston [1968]
Book : Fiction : English : 3d ed
pt. 1. Basic elements of fiction -- Most dangerous game / Richard Connell ; And the rock cried out / Ray Bradbury ; The Manhunt / Daniel Curley ; The last day in the field / Caroline Gordon ; A Tree, a rock, a cloud / Carson McCullers -- pt. 2. Point of view -- The Horse Dealer's Daughter / D. H. Lawrence ; What we don't know hurts us / Mark Schorer ; Rain / W. Somerset Maugham ; The girls in their summer dresses / Irwin Shaw -- pt. 3. Honesty and dishonesty in fiction --De Mortuis / John Collier ; The Lottery / Shirley Jackson ; Necklace / Guy de Maupassant -- pt. 4. Symbol -- Girl / Meridel Le Sueur ; Portable phonograph / Walter Van Tilburg Clark ; Good country people / Flannery O'Connor ; Flowering Judas / Katherine Anne Porter -- Pt. 5. Humor, satire, and fantasy -- Catbird seat / James Thurber ; First Confession / Frank O'Connor ; Forks / J.F. Powers ; Other side of the hedge / E. M. Forster ; Adam and Eve and Pinch me ; A. E. Coppard -- pt. 6. Theme and variation -- Leader of the people / John Steinbeck ; That evening sun / William Faulkner ; Absolution / F.Scott Fitzgerald ; Short happy life of Francis Macomber / Ernest Hemingway -- pt. 7. More stories for study -- Tell-tale heart / Edgar Allen Poe ; My Kinsman, Major Molineux / Nathaniel Hawthorne ; Bartleby / Herman Melville ; Lament / Anton Chekhov ; Real Thing / Henry James; Herart of Darkness/ Joseph Conrad ; Open Boat / Stephen Crane; Gentleman from San Francisco / Ivan Bunin ; Little Cloud / James Joyce ; Petrified man / Eudora Welty ; Goodbye, my brother / John Cheever; Unspoiled reaction / Mary McCarthy ; Patented gate and the mean hamburger / Robert Penn Warren ; Who made yellow roses yellow? / John Updike ; Defender of the faith / Philip Roth


I have almost ZERO doubt that Manalli read this book. (if you knew the full extent of how Manalli was up Curley's ass you would understand what I mean).And if he read everything in the book, then he read about THE MOST DANGEROUS GAME Shocked

One more for the collection from Manalli-


Zodiac & Manalli comparisons again-





This is about Manalli:
Another suspect, Siebe said, was
a middle-aged, married man who
died in a traffic accident in the 70's.
In investigating the death,
detectives found evidence that
showed the man knew about the
murders. But there wasn't enough
evidence to close the case, Siebe
said.
Carlstedt believes that man and
another man also dead, were
responsible for al least most of the
murders.
"After those two guys died, there
was nothing. No more female
homicide. I'd bet money it was
them, but it can never be proven

This post will contain all of Manallis threats, violent statements, or his discussion of violent acts:







Best for last:













SF Chronicle AD ran 2 days after Manalli died:










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Last edited by morf13 on Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:51 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:59 pm

traveller1st wrote:
I was looking through the Manalli stuff the other night and even though I've seen this before and others may have mentioned it, I found myself wondering if it tells us anything about the thinking of the man himself - that he would choose to live on a street that was the same as his name albiet a slightly different spelling.


Trav from what year was that 109 Frederick St SF Ca address?

I have found this SF Ca addresses for FredManalli and his wife Susan/ Suzanne.
I don´t know what that 1963 address realy mean due to the "Maren County Sch" ? anyone knows?

1962 Polk SF phonebook: no Manalli

1963 Polk SF phonebook:
Manalli Frederic S (Suzanne J) tchr Maren County Sch h961 Union apt 1

1964/1965 Polk SF phonebook:
Manalli Fred (Sue) tchr PS h462 Holyoke St

1966 Polk SF phonebook:
Manalli Fred (Sue) tchr PS h462 Holyoke St

1967 Polk SF phonebook: no Manalli

1968 Polk SF phonebook: no Manalli

1969/1970 Polk SF phonebook: no Manalli
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:50 pm

TF I think the Maren County Sch. might refer to Manalli teaching school at San Quentin Prison which is located in Marin County. Manalli was attending San Francisco State College at that time, earning his masters degree, supplementing his income with the job at the prison.

Manalli's wife Suzanne, who went by the nickname Sue, was also a teacher.

The Manalli's moved a lot, I think that Trav made up a list of addresses from his letters to Dan Curley. Manalli would include new addresses in his letters to Curley. The Manalli's, besides living in San Francisco and Sonoma County, lived in San Leandro when they first came to California about 1962. A few summers they worked the fire season as fire spotters for the Department of Forestry in Mendocino County and Lake Tahoe.
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:56 pm

Seagull wrote:
TF I think the Maren County Sch. might refer to Manalli teaching school at San Quentin Prison which is located in Marin County. Manalli was attending San Francisco State College at that time, earning his masters degree, supplementing his income with the job at the prison.

Manalli's wife Suzanne, who went by the nickname Sue, was also a teacher.

The Manalli's moved a lot, I think that Trav made up a list of addresses from his letters to Dan Curley. Manalli would include new addresses in his letters to Curley. The Manalli's, besides living in San Francisco and Sonoma County, lived in San Leandro when they first came to California about 1962. A few summers they worked the fire season as fire spotters for the Department of Forestry in Mendocino County and Lake Tahoe.

Thanks Seagull:) well I guess they misspelled the Maren County then, it should , as you suggest, have been Marin County, however it IS spelled Maren County in the Polk phonebook.

By the way...I really wish that the search function would work on this forum!


Morf.... PLEASE make it work PLEAAAAAAAAAASE Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:09 pm

The only person that knows how to use the SEARCH function is TRAV....oh TRAV... Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:26 pm

April 1973 TF

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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:44 pm

traveller1st wrote:
April 1973 TF

Thanks Trav Smile

I checked further on Polk SF phonebook 1973, 1974, and 1975
and I found him on the 109 frederick St address in 1974, but notheing in 1973 0r 1975.

I have added my lates findings in this Pok honebook summary:


I have found this SF Ca addresses for Fred Manalli and in some ofthe addresses also his wife Susan/ Suzanne.
I don´t know what that 1963 address realy mean due to the "Maren County Sch" but Seagull have suggested that it is possibly related to the San Quentin State Prison where FM worked around that time of 1963, and that Maren County in fact is a misspelling and should have been Marin County where San Quentin State Prison is located:


1962 Polk SF phonebook: no Manalli

1963 Polk SF phonebook:
Manalli Frederic S (Suzanne J) tchr Maren County Sch h961 Union apt 1

1964/1965 Polk SF phonebook:
Manalli Fred (Sue) tchr PS h462 Holyoke St

1966 Polk SF phonebook:
Manalli Fred (Sue) tchr PS h462 Holyoke St

1967 Polk SF phonebook: no Manalli

1968 Polk SF phonebook: no Manalli

1969/1970 Polk SF phonebook: no Manalli

1973 Polk SF phonebook: no Manalli

1974 Polk SF phonebook: Manalli F S h109 Frederick St Apt 2

1975 Polk SF phonebook: no Manalli





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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:33 am

He went back home to Illinois with his Family for a stretch shortly before his death. I dont know the exact length of time, but he came back to CA not too long before his death.I want to say it was from 1974-74 that he was back in Ill. I always thought that may explain the last Z letter coming in 74, and then he came back to CA shortly before his death. I base this on letters he wrote dated during this time period with return addresses in Ill. And he mentions in one of the letters that he has moved back to ILL.

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