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 Fred Manalli

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Seagull
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 07, 2012 2:16 pm

Manalli's rank in the Army at the time of his discharge was SP4(E-4)(7). I am not sure what the (7) means but here is a website which explains simply what the other means.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Army-Enlisted-Rank---Basic-Training-for-the-Organizationally-Challenged&id=83715

According to his discharge papers Manalli joined the Army Reserves and was called to active duty Nov. 18, 1958. He initially joined Oct. 1, 1957. He spent 1 year, 11 months and 25 days on active duty. Upon completing his inactive obligation he was discharged from military service Sept. 30, 1963. During his active duty he spent 1 year, 6 months and 7 days overseas. I do not know where he was stationed.
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trainmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 07, 2012 2:33 pm

Morf (and others):

I did a psychological analysis of the letters a couple of years ago for Seagull.
Only Seagull will know if I have letters that she did not send you, and I have copies of copies, many hard for me to read.

I was not trained in handwriting analysis, so I did not look at the letters
from that prespective. I was working on trying to analyze his state of mind at the time and determine if he was even capable of murder.

It was very helpful to me, that I did NOT know Manelli's background, either before or after these letters, so my thoughts on this project would be able to concentrate on the contents only.

Manelli's death is a mystery to me. I have not read all the posts in this forum, yet, so I don't know if it came up, but there were mysterious circumstances involved. He died of a head-on auto collision on a fromer 2-lane road in Santa Rosa that is freeway now. He apparently turned his vehicle into an oncoming car. The other person survived, but what caused the action?

I asked Seagull for Manelli's blood content to determine if alcohol was involved.
Did he have a heart attack? For some reason, I cannot determine it would be suicide wanting to take out an innocent person. I forget the road conditions, then - perhaps something made him swerve.

Anyway, if I have any material that can be helpful, I can scan it and send it.
Seagull, I think you will know the period - the early 60's and the letters between Manelli and his former professor. Manelli was definately a very frustrated man. One reason - could not get his poems published. Another reason - could not find a better job then teaching at SRJC (I think he tried SF State, but do not remember). He also could not get his Master's Degree from the University of his choice. As I remember, Manelli's wife, Susan, divorced him and married his business partner Don Emblam.

This is a very interesting case. I am glad it is here.
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 07, 2012 2:41 pm

Manalli died after his car 'drifted' into oncoming traffic. Official cause of death was shock from multiple cuts(if I remember right). I too wondered if he was drunk or chose suicide by auto. None of that mentioned in the death records. Manalli did seem like a frustrated man.

The funny thing is, Manalli is only a Z suspect because Graysmith mentioned him as such. Graysmith was apprently alerted to Manalli by an investigator, so I think that the investigator likely suspected Manalli as being involved in a Santa Rosa murder. Graysmith tried to link manalli to ALA, but thats never been proven. Still, I would like to know if some of the things about Manlli are true, especially if he was ever a teacher in southern CA.
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 07, 2012 3:00 pm

There is MORE Manalli stuff waiting in the wings......

http://library.wustl.edu/units/spec/manuscripts/findingaids/MSS144.html
Papers from Manalli, in Sept 69 & Nov 69. These would be certainly interesting, as Zodiac was pretty busy writing letters around this time. I will see if I can get these
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trainmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 07, 2012 3:35 pm

My knowledge of Manelli is very limited, which was helpful so I could get
somewhat of an accurate psychological reading from the letters.

It was Sebastopol Road in Santa Rosa where the Manelli accident happened.
In those days, it was still 2-lane. (Now freeway). I stayed at a house on
Kenmore Lane, which was not connected to Sebastopol Road (then-is now).
It is about a mile west where the accident occured.

You mentioned the word "drifted" when I thought he "made a sharp turn."
I wonder if he fell asleep at the wheel? I think he passed later at the hospital.
He died from multiple wounds and cuts, as I remember also. I think he was in a van, hitting a small car, but don't remember, so my statement on that is not reliable.

Morf, between you and Seagull, who has studied Manelli and the SRHM for years, have shed light on the accident and Manelli himself. Maybe Seagull knows if Manelli was in SoCal. I think he came from Chicago, but, from my memory, could very well be mistaken.

In psychology, extreme frustration can turn to inward anger and bitterness.
Is it possible such anger could lead to the desire to kill? Possible, depending on the person's lifescript, of which I do not know about Manelli.

He was a very highly respected man in his area, which does not rule out
he could have an impulse to kill, and certainly an interesting character.
I am sure losing his wife to his business partner didn't help matters, although I understand that they had filed for divorce several times in the past.

My papers Seagull sent were from the late 50's-early 60's, so the link Morf provided, above, would be a time frame of Zodiac activity.

I still have to finish reading the thread up to this page - I am on page 6...
did anybody copy/paste the death certificate or the newspaper articles on the accident? If not, I can.


abnerck@msn.com


Last edited by trainmaster on Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:41 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : eyesight-arthritis in hands)
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traveller1st
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 07, 2012 5:00 pm

That would be great Train if you could post those.

Here's the comp chart for the k's.

Fred Manalli - Page 7 The-k-10
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 07, 2012 5:07 pm

Good work again Trav. Its hard to explain why Manalli uses both a 2 stroke & 3 stroke K. Theres no logical explanation for it. Again, I have used a 3 stroke K my entire life,and the only way I could possibly make a 2 stroke would not be on accident, I would physically & mentally have to make a conscious effort to do it. So, why did Manalli do it? Anybody else disagree with this?

This is good stuff for sure.
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traveller1st
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 07, 2012 5:39 pm

I have to say at this point that I'm not sure either way. There are things that make me think, ok, close but probably no cigar and then there are things that I can't really explain or can explain too easily.

Duckking said to me recently that this was all both intriguing and confusing. I think that sums it up very well. Perhaps as a nod to Joyce we could term it
"Contriguing".

The 'Drift' thing I mention is a fancy way of saying for each variation on Zodiac's k's, Manalli seems to have a counterpart. Also both start at opposites ends, one trying to stick a clean 3 stroke k and the other trying to stick to a cursive k. Neither managing it. To be very clear - I have no idea if this means anything. Maybe lots of people do that?

Hmmmm...just had a thought. I did do that....when I was a kid learning cursive so maybe it's an indicator of a change in form from cursive to print and vice-versa at the same time overlapping. I would have expected, maybe, for there to be more contamination in the printed stuff than in the cursive stuff.....unless they were, in a way both learning experiences to a certain degree. Learning to write all in print and re-learning to write in cursive.

Manalli on serveral of his letters apologizes for writing rather than typing (his typewriter was being fixed). He hopes his writing will be legible and complains that he barely read it himself. He seemed to much prefer typing. Seagull would that be right or is it 50/50 ish for handwritten vs typed? Wish we knew if he left or right handed.

I wanted ask, is this 'contriguing' or is it just all shiny and new? I'm 'contrigued' , then I'm confused, then intrigued, then contrigued again.
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traveller1st
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 07, 2012 5:56 pm

morf13 wrote:
Good work again Trav. Its hard to explain why Manalli uses both a 2 stroke & 3 stroke K. Theres no logical explanation for it. Again, I have used a 3 stroke K my entire life,and the only way I could possibly make a 2 stroke would not be on accident, I would physically & mentally have to make a conscious effort to do it. So, why did Manalli do it? Anybody else disagree with this?

This is good stuff for sure.

I agree with you on the changing from one form to another. I would have to stop and think.

As for Manalli and his 2 stroke and then 3 stroke. I would maybe guess that the simplest answer might be the most logical. His 3 stroke is his uppercase print 3 stroke.

He may be used to implementing that when doing something in print. I dont mean the Zodiac letters btw, it could be anything like signs for the classroom or simply what some people might call, their tidy writing.

Because there are more angles in a 3 stroke k its a little more forgiving as it fills the space better and it's easier to get the stoke lengths right even if you don't it still looks ok.
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Seagull
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 07, 2012 5:58 pm

There is way more typewritten stuff than handwritten. I sent you the bulk of the handwritten letters.

Manalli does speak of having blackouts, not alcoholic blackouts, just times where he has no idea what he has been doing for periods of time. He was seeking medical attention for the problem. I have read somewhere, maybe Graysmith, that he had epilepsy but it doesn't really say that was the diagnosis in his letters. When reading those parts I was reminded of the blackouts that Arthur Shawcross had at the times of the murders he committed. I believe other serial killers have complained of the same thing happening to them. I suppose many would believe that the killers were just using blackouts as an excuse not to face up and fess up to the crimes thay have committed. It actually might be a real occurance, something to do with the psychology of killing and protecting oneself mentally from the horror of what they have done.
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trainmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 07, 2012 6:03 pm

VERY INTERESTING, indeed, traveller. You are good at this.

Most (if not all) psychological profiles point to Zodiac having a hatred for women.

Manelli taught in a junior college where women, around the ages of the SRHM occured, as well
as the ages of the Zodiac victims.

I am not saying that Manelli is the responsible - just that this information is very interesting!

I will go through the material I have. I think Seagull has the originals which would show up better, but
if she is busy, I would be happy to post them.
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Seagull
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 07, 2012 6:13 pm

Trainmaster please do NOT post Manalli's letters!!! I signed copyright agreements and the letters can not be posted in whole unless I get permission. I do not have the original letters, just copies. Mine are first generation copies, yours second generation but I went to a good copy place to get your copies and saw no difference.
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traveller1st
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 07, 2012 6:21 pm

Thanks Seagull.

I had a feeling that was probably the case with the handwritten stuff.

Also, I can personally vouch for the weirdness of blackouts. If you have a proper blackout, and I don't mean forgetting bits of a heavy, sauce filled evening, you don't remember anything. This is because as far as your brain is concerned there is nothing to remember. It's not like having a blank spot in you memory, where, whether you realise it or not, you can remember because you know there's something missing.

A blackout doesn't leave you that. You don't even have an inkling. You remember right up until the blackout happens, you remember after it but even if you sit down after knowing you had a blackout and work out how long it was you head still won't accept that there's even a gap there.

The brain can't process what a blackout is because it was turned off essentially at the time. When it comes back online there's no back up of data like you would have if you were sleeping or even just blind drunk. We still have emotions and sensations during those times and those can form the basis associative memory where you still can't remember but your brain remembers a backup reference to place it roughly in time. There is no time in a blackout to even reference against.

EDIT: FWIW I doubt Zodiac had blackouts since he was able to remember his crimes and write about about them. You can do anything in a blackout but I don't think it includes getting up the next morning and posting details of your crime to the papers.


Last edited by traveller1st on Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:33 pm; edited 3 times in total
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traveller1st
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 07, 2012 6:22 pm

Seagull wrote:
Trainmaster please do NOT post Manalli's letters!!! I signed copyright agreements and the letters can not be posted in whole unless I get permission. I do not have the original letters, just copies. Mine are first generation copies, yours second generation but I went to a good copy place to get your copies and saw no difference.

Good catch Seagull. Sorry that was my fault I just wasn't thinking at all.
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bentley
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 07, 2012 6:45 pm

Wow, one stroke Ks, that takes some effort!

6'3", just can't get past that. And that was likely barefoot.

traveller1st wrote:
That would be great Train if you could post those.

Here's the comp chart for the k's.

Fred Manalli - Page 7 The-k-10
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trainmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyThu Jun 07, 2012 7:15 pm

Don't worry, Seagull. I understand the situation very well. Same goes for the Death Certificate and paper articles.

If anyone wants information, they should be directed to either you or Morf.

Thanks for posting that. I certainly would not want trouble for you!

Best,

Trainmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyFri Jun 08, 2012 12:03 am

traveller1st wrote:
FWIW I doubt Zodiac had blackouts since he was able to remember his crimes and write about about them. You can do anything in a blackout but I don't think it includes getting up the next morning and posting details of your crime to the papers.
Unless, of course, the letter writing and letter sending also occurred during these blackouts.

I used to pooh-pooh the notion of dissociative fugues, until I actually saw one myself. Now I don't feel I can dismiss such a hypothesis where it comes to Zodiac. I could explain why the 1974 letters are so different from the Zodiac ones.
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traveller1st
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyFri Jun 08, 2012 1:42 am

Very true Nacht. I don't know how long blackout last for though.


Ok,

I was trying to think of a clear way to show this. In the end I just stuck it on there and sized it as best I could. What you are looking for is where the two samples match up, follow the same shape, same line, same gaps (for the most), same left margin scooping in.

Look closely and slowly at each letter and follow the writing through to the end...let me know at which point you can't tell which is which.

Fred Manalli - Page 7 69-cit10

EDIT: Here's another one with the left margin visible.

Fred Manalli - Page 7 69-cit11
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trainmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyFri Jun 08, 2012 1:59 am

Not meaning to be a repetitive sounding board, but, holding a Psychology degree, I can say blackouts vary from
one person to another. A lot of it depends on the individual's lifescript. I often wonder if the killer suffered from DID
(Dissociative Identity Disorder)???
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyFri Jun 08, 2012 6:24 am

Sorry Trav, although I agree with you, and think there are many similarities in Manalli's writing, this overlay of Manalli's against the Citizen letter, is too jumbled,too loud for me. I can't really read it well,as it seems a bit cluttered.
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyFri Jun 08, 2012 7:25 am

I have found one more similarity between Manalli & Zodiac, and one big difference....

First the similairty. Everytime Manalli writes something with a capital 'TH', he connects the tops of the T & H, just like Z did(see below):
Fred Manalli - Page 7 Th_bmp10

The key difference I spotted, was that everytime Manalli writes the word 'the', he capitalizes it, no matter what. Zodiac didnt do that, Trav, please check thru and see if I am correct.
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyFri Jun 08, 2012 9:20 am

traveller1st wrote:
...

I was trying to think of a clear way to show this. In the end I just stuck it on there and sized it as best I could. What you are looking for is where the two samples match up, follow the same shape, same line, same gaps (for the most), same left margin scooping in.

Look closely and slowly at each letter and follow the writing through to the end...let me know at which point you can't tell which is which.

....

Fred Manalli - Page 7 69-cit11

I see differences as early as the first and second lines.

The Greeting "Sirs" has a dash followed by the beginning of the body of the letter whereas Manalli follows the usual format of a letter's greeting. There is also a date on Manalli's exemplar but not on Zodiac's. The paragraph indentation is different as are the left and right margin alignments, the right in particular. Horizontal alignment is close but not near a perfect match.

I can't make a letter-by-letter comparison other than to say the height of the letters are similar. Manalli's letters look smaller.

I have no training in document examination but to my eye the writings are different.

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traveller1st
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyFri Jun 08, 2012 10:17 am

No probs,

It is hard to see and hopefully I can show what I'm seeing in more detail but I wanted that out there first because I think it will useful to look back at once the details are highlighted.
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traveller1st
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyFri Jun 08, 2012 10:21 am

morf13 wrote:


The key difference I spotted, was that everytime Manalli writes the word 'the', he capitalizes it, no matter what. Zodiac didnt do that, Trav, please check thru and see if I am correct.

Yup, you're right.

I've had a quick look and he does it for the words the, this, and that. Haven't checked it all but that seems pretty much the case throughout. Actually it's any word that starts with 'th'.
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trainmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Fred Manalli   Fred Manalli - Page 7 EmptyFri Jun 08, 2012 12:12 pm

Hey, Trav:

I noticed you are in Northern Ireland....Belfast?

I am curious about your handwriting analysis, as you are doing a good job - were you trained in that?

I am really thrown off in the post, above. I can recognize "Dear Dan" as Manelli's writing, and the background the Zodiac, I can't make out. You guys have much
better eyesight then I do. Please keep us informed.

Morf, I don't mean to butt in, but I looked at my Manelli papers, and yes, he does capitalize every word with "The" and any modifier that begins with "T" (There). (Handwriting only - not typed). Just thought you would like to know. Sorry for intruding.

Trainmaster



Last edited by trainmaster on Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : arthritis)
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