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 Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??

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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:39 am

traveller1st wrote:
tahoe27 wrote:


What it boils down to for me at least, is the handwriting is not the same. Whether Zodiac's or not, it's different. Add the handwriting looking practically identical on the HC and Pines card, these only going to Paul Avery, along with only paste-ups going to Paul-- I find that very NOT Zodiac like.


Yup,

I agree. This is interesting and a good synopsis to quote as I wanted to say again, good find and well spotted points. I've seen that 'h' before and here it is. Again it's the Pines card that's the closer match to the example.


Still looking at this writing as being close to the desktop, I tried to blow it up without distorting it,but these h's look close (there are 2 lower case h's in this writing sample, one is tighter and slimmer, one is a bit more open, but I think BOTH resemble these h's on the desk & card, especially the tighter one)

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Theforeigner
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:30 am

morf13 wrote:
traveller1st wrote:
tahoe27 wrote:


What it boils down to for me at least, is the handwriting is not the same. Whether Zodiac's or not, it's different. Add the handwriting looking practically identical on the HC and Pines card, these only going to Paul Avery, along with only paste-ups going to Paul-- I find that very NOT Zodiac like.


Yup,

I agree. This is interesting and a good synopsis to quote as I wanted to say again, good find and well spotted points. I've seen that 'h' before and here it is. Again it's the Pines card that's the closer match to the example.


Still looking at , I tried to blow it up without distorting it,but these h's look close (there are 2 lower case h's in this writing sample, one is tighter and slimmer, one is a bit more open, but I think BOTH resemble these h's on the desk & card, especially the tighter one)

Could you please tell what text/letter it is that you used to compare, meaning this one that you showed an image of:

"this writing as being close to the desktop"
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morf13
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:26 am

Foreigner,that writing sample I posted is from a student at Ramona HS that wrote it in the school yearbook. He graduated one year before Cheri Jo Bates. He went to Riverside college in 1966. Check your PM's I sent you one with more info

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:21 am

3 stroke K, someone finally found one!
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:52 am

bentley wrote:
3 stroke K, someone finally found one!

Is it a 3 stroke?? Hadnt even noticed,but is definitely the closest writing I have seen yet to the desktop poem

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"Back when I was picking beans in Guatemala, we used to make fresh coffee, right off the trees I mean. That was good. This is shit but, hey, I'm in a police station"
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:42 pm

Something else I noticed today in regards to the envelopes.

Practically all of them have "please rush to editor"....with the ROOSEVELT stamp. (underlining mine)

The L.A. Times letter of '71.....a Roosevelt stamp (3 years of Roosevelts!). A few days later to Paul...not a Roosevelt stamp. The HC card, not a Roosevelt stamp, but before and after...Roosevelts.

The only letters/cards without Roosevelt stamps are ones in question and the letter to Belli.

12 Letter/cards with the Roosevelts.

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t762-stamps-on-confirmed-letters


***


---For those of you who believe HC and Pines card to be from Zodiac, why do you think he chose to cut & paste only for Paul? (asking genuinely)

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:07 pm

bentley wrote:
3 stroke K, someone finally found one!

I missed that one too.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:33 pm

traveller1st wrote:
bentley wrote:
3 stroke K, someone finally found one!

I missed that one too.

What is more common? 2 stroke or 3 stroke? I actually just had to write one out to see what I do,and it is a 3 stroke

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"Back when I was picking beans in Guatemala, we used to make fresh coffee, right off the trees I mean. That was good. This is shit but, hey, I'm in a police station"
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:35 pm

People are lazy.....2 stroke.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Sat Apr 07, 2012 2:57 pm

...And another thing. (Sorry---just jotting down tidbits as they pop into my head)


March 13, 1971: Zodiac writes the LA Times explaining why he is now writing to them..."they don't bury me on the back pages".

Yet several days later he sends a card to the Examiner and the Chronicle as well? He didn't punish them too long. Wink


Looks like Mr. Avery was dissapointed the LA Times received the letter....gives this and HIS card front page attention.


via zodiacrevisited.com


No more Zodiac letters to the Editor...even after this front page attention. At least not for 3 or so years.

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bentley
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:43 pm

tahoe27 wrote:
People are lazy.....2 stroke.

I agree based on what I've seen, never seen a statistic though.. Wink

Kind of surprising considering the amount of rapid looking writing he did that he would take the extra time for a 3 stroke. I guess people just learn one way or the other and stick with it.
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:21 pm

tahoe27 wrote:
Something else I noticed today in regards to the envelopes.

Practically all of them have "please rush to editor"....with the ROOSEVELT stamp. (underlining mine)

The L.A. Times letter of '71.....a Roosevelt stamp (3 years of Roosevelts!). A few days later to Paul...not a Roosevelt stamp. The HC card, not a Roosevelt stamp, but before and after...Roosevelts.

The only letters/cards without Roosevelt stamps are ones in question and the letter to Belli.

12 Letter/cards with the Roosevelts.

http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t762-stamps-on-confirmed-letters


***


---For those of you who believe HC and Pines card to be from Zodiac, why do you think he chose to cut & paste only for Paul? (asking genuinely)

I also mentioned the stamp change on the H card in my list on page one. The Pines card I'm pretty sure is one of those cards with the stamp already printed on it. Previous to this, Zodiac always used an envelope with stamps, so add that to the list of deviations. An exception would be the Pace Card of 10/5/70, another paste up of questionable authorship. Also oddly came a just a couple of weeks before the H card. I don't know if you've already brought that into the mix. Could be all three came from the same source.

Trav old boy, we really need those envelopes on your Zoomify dingus.
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:25 am

A bit more on Avery.

Avery published a series of article in the Chronicle on the subject of 'Swinging', wife/husband swapping or whatever you call it. My mother in law was Avery's neighbor in the '60s, even helped change diapers on his two young daughters. Though she really like him, she says he was quite mixed up between drugs, Zodiac and this sex thing. I only mention it as a possible reason why someone might carry a grudge against him, even Zodiac. A book containing his material "Some Notes on 'Wife Swapping'," in Sex in America was published in 1965. Avery at some point left his wife and children and wound up with prostitute and sex advocate Margo St. James, with whom he remained until his death.

http://www.theswinginglife.com/research.htm
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:41 pm

bentley wrote:

Trav old boy, we really need those envelopes on your Zoomify dingus.

Started it. Will be ready in a few days.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:01 am

All very interesting and the cut and paste ones could well be from someone else but I seriously doubt a fake Z would spend so much time and effort on the Halloween card that Morrill could probably discount in a matter of seconds. Would be a great waste of time IMO.
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:04 am

bentley wrote:
An exception would be the Pace Card of 10/5/70, another paste up of questionable authorship. Also oddly came a just a couple of weeks before the H card. I don't know if you've already brought that into the mix. Could be all three came from the same source.

Ah, glad you brought up the Pace card, about time you mentioned something interesting. The Pace card:

Arrived 3 weeks before the Halloween card.

Is a paste up card using the Chron for it's letters and words.

Has the same stamp as the Halloween card, which differs from the known Z letters of the time.

Has a score of 13, the same as the Little List letter of 2 months prior. This would be the only time the score was not raised.

The Halloween card 3 weeks later would up the score to 14. No victim identified in those 3 weeks.

Paul Avery published a large article on the Pace card on 10/12/70, a week after it's arrival. In it, he says LE has reasons to believe it is from Z, but declines to state why (hmm).
http://cdn.sfgate.com/chronicle/acrobat/2007/02/25/zodiac_1970_10_12_1.pdf

The Pace card is addressed to the Chron, not Avery. 2 weeks later comes the H card, addressed to Avery. Likely a response to the article, however Avery directs no insults or accusations against Z, only stating LE info and theories.

Seems like a good chance the Pace and Halloween cards are connected, Z or not. So why the switch from Chron to Avery? Avery of course had written Z articles prior.



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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:55 pm

bentley wrote:
Seems like a good chance the Pace and Halloween cards are connected, Z or not. So why the switch from Chron to Avery? Avery of course had written Z articles prior.

I think it is because Avery published this persons work.

Zodiac continued to write letters, but sent these different pieces of work to Paul?

In RG's "Zodiac", it states that for about two days Armstrong and Toschi thought the Pace card might be authentic, but they eventually filed it as another copycat.

Which is one of the reasons I feel the Pace/FK Crackproof card, the 10/12/70 card, HC card and the Pines card are fakes by the same person. (ZODIO - see page 1)......as mentioned--the stamp, among other things and then you have the Pines card with the happy hole-puncher....addressed in the same manner.

I have to wonder if they found the guy who mailed the 10/12/70 card and assumed he wrote the 10/5/70 Pace card??? Is THAT why it was quickly eliminated? (thanks to morf we now know they had a potential letter writer's name!)

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:12 pm

Sorry, didn't realize the FK/Crackprrof and Pace card are the same card. Probably help if I actually read what it said. Neutral

10/12/70 card, which one is that? I'm confused, and waiting for Trav to finish his Zoomify masterpiece so I can see them all in one swoop.
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:30 pm

If the Pace/Pines card was written by someone else, then Z certainly saw it and used the phrase "crack proof" in the LA Times Letter a year later. It is interesting to note that Z wrote "like I have always said, I am crack proof" when he never wrote or talked about being "crackproof" before that.
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:35 pm

Has it been too long, or could someone determine what kind of glue was

used for the paste on these cards, Elmer's or model airplane glue?

I believe Zodiac used model aiprplane paint for the white paint on the Halloween

Card, and the Zodiac emblem on the front of his Costume at Lake Berryessa.

One would think, cutting and pasting letters might leave alot of fingerprints, unless they wore gloves.
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:33 pm

bentley wrote:
Sorry, didn't realize the FK/Crackprrof and Pace card are the same card. Probably help if I actually read what it said. Neutral

10/12/70 card, which one is that? I'm confused, and waiting for Trav to finish his Zoomify masterpiece so I can see them all in one swoop.

--Sorry, I should have included this earlier!

Who sent it? Now that is the question. Someone thought they knew (see below) - same cut & paste of dates, etc. as the 10/5/70 "pace" card.

Morf posted it here: http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t748-the-zodiac-is-going-to-postcard-from-10-12-70



And here is the FBI letter about it (also thx to morf and AK for enhancing):









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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:44 pm

onewhoknows wrote:
Has it been too long, or could someone determine what kind of glue was

used for the paste on these cards, Elmer's or model airplane glue?

I believe Zodiac used model aiprplane paint for the white paint on the Halloween

Card, and the Zodiac emblem on the front of his Costume at Lake Berryessa.

One would think, cutting and pasting letters might leave alot of fingerprints, unless they wore gloves.

I don't think the glue was ever tested. Not sure how model airplane glue would work on paper. Probably too harsh. I do agree there would be some sort of DNA working with glue/paste, but doubt LE would ever make that attempt.

Not only that, but according to an Orinda newspaper report, Paul Avery (years later) had in his possesion the Halloween Card--fingerprint dust n'all. So does LE still even have it?? Or did Paul have another he liked to pass off as real....I don't know.

http://zodiackiller.21.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=5954

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:41 am

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:46 am

Wow Bentley, great job!

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:49 am

Dice wrote:
If the Pace/Pines card was written by someone else, then Z certainly saw it and used the phrase "crack proof" in the LA Times Letter a year later. It is interesting to note that Z wrote "like I have always said, I am crack proof" when he never wrote or talked about being "crackproof" before that.

Very interesting, thanks for pointing this out. Z did write "have you cracked my last cipher yet" in a previous authentic letter (My Name Is), so he was at least familiar with the term 'crack' in regards to ciphers. Stating 'I'm crackproof' in the Oct. 12 card doesn't sound like something a hoaxer would want to bother bragging about does it? However this card also states 'the pace hasn't slowed, in fact it's just one big thirteenth' but the count was already 13 in the Little List letter a few months prior. The pace had in fact, apparently slowed. Hmm.

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