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 Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??

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onewhoknows
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:31 pm

If the Paul Avery Postcard was not cancelled, that means someone delivered it to him by hand...? Did Zodiac go up into the Chronicle in person?
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:43 pm

bentley wrote:
When evaluating these letters for authenticity we should keep in mind that if they were not done by Z, they were done by someone trying to emulate him.

Which bring up an odd thought. If one is trying to imitate Z's writing, why would you not use a 3 stroke K? Hmm, have to ponder that one.

Sherwood said that Z used both the 2 & 3 stroke K. 'If' somebody was trying to forge a letter, they may have been looking at one of the mailings he used with a 2 stroke. Personally, I think these are all Z letters from the real Z

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:56 pm

Sherwood must have been referring to some of the letters we are questioning here. I think if you look closely at any of the obvious 1969-1970 Z letters you won't find a single one. I could be wrong, been awhile since I looked. Some of them do meet closely at the middle but are still 3 stroke.
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:57 pm

http://community.aetv.com/_FBI-Handwriting-Exam-Memo-April-28-1970-I-Hope-You-Enjoyjpg/photo/10562363/119137.html?enlarge=true

Hi, does anybody know if the FBI memo mentioned above is available as a full version? It mentions 50 different positions - maybe some unknown letters mentioned in that memo as well?

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:50 pm

traveller1st wrote:
The similarities in the r's suggest a match for the pines card to zodiac but, as Tahoe has proposed, if the writer of the pines card and the HC are one and the same then this would also suggest a match to the zodiac.

Thanks for the comparisons traveller1st! I know it's time comsuming work!

Like bentley mentioned, the author of those cards (if not Z) would be trying (and I emphasize trying) to look somewhat like Zodiac's. Not sure how we can compare so much a lower case "y", but the "r"s are good and while someone trying to copy may have pulled off an r or two, the rest as a whole looks nothing like Zodiac's to me.

Again, the "c", the "n", the "h", among others don't cut it for me.

I will put copies of some of the other Zodiac envelopes next to the HC and Pines card in a bit.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:50 pm

Quicktrader wrote:
http://community.aetv.com/_FBI-Handwriting-Exam-Memo-April-28-1970-I-Hope-You-Enjoyjpg/photo/10562363/119137.html?enlarge=true

Hi, does anybody know if the FBI memo mentioned above is available as a full version? It mentions 50 different positions - maybe some unknown letters mentioned in that memo as well?

Quicktrader

Thats from one of his letters available on this forum..."I HAVE MY BLAST" & "IF YOU DO NOT WANT ME TO HAVE THIS BLAST"

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:19 pm

tahoe27 wrote:
traveller1st wrote:
The similarities in the r's suggest a match for the pines card to zodiac but, as Tahoe has proposed, if the writer of the pines card and the HC are one and the same then this would also suggest a match to the zodiac.

Thanks for the comparisons traveller1st! I know it's time comsuming work!

Like bentley mentioned, the author of those cards (if not Z) would be trying (and I emphasize trying) to look somewhat like Zodiac's. Not sure how we can compare so much a lower case "y", but the "r"s are good and while someone trying to copy may have pulled off an r or two, the rest as a whole looks nothing like Zodiac's to me.

Again, the "c", the "n", the "h", among others don't cut it for me.

I will put copies of some of the other Zodiac envelopes next to the HC and Pines card in a bit.

No probs,

Yes, it becomes a bit of a grey area unfortunately if we consider that it was someone trying to make it look like Zodiac's writing. My gut feeling on this is that it isn't that. Actually it's a bit more than a gut feeling. The printing in these cases is stylized so it's neither cursive nor is it handprinting and by that virtue alone it isn't an attempt to copy Zodiac's writing.

So basically what we have here is a stylized hand drawn font, elements of which bear a resemblance to Zodiac's handprinting. I don't see an attempt at forgery here but rather a unique style, the under-lying ingrained habits of which, seem to tally up with Zodiac's. In this respect I would see the differences as a result of styling rather than an indication of a non-match.

Also bear in mind that there is evidence of Zodiac departing from his usual style in the envelope for the Nov 9th 1969 bus bomb letter.


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bentley
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:26 pm

traveller1st wrote:


Also bear in mind that there is evidence of Zodiac departing from his usual style in the envelope for the Nov 9th 1969 bus bomb letter.

Good Point. He sure abandoned it quickly, must have been too much effort. Smile

There's another piece that has the block style, can't remember what at the moment.
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:36 pm

bentley wrote:
traveller1st wrote:


Also bear in mind that there is evidence of Zodiac departing from his usual style in the envelope for the Nov 9th 1969 bus bomb letter.

Good Point. He sure abandoned it quickly, must have been too much effort. Smile

There's another piece that has the block style, can't remember what at the moment.

Must have been too much for his tiny twisted brain.

Yes there is another one and I think it's the Riverside envelope/s.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:51 pm

Ah yes, the Confession envelope. Not a good match imo but worth a look.
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:15 pm

traveller1st wrote:
tahoe27 wrote:
traveller1st wrote:
The similarities in the r's suggest a match for the pines card to zodiac but, as Tahoe has proposed, if the writer of the pines card and the HC are one and the same then this would also suggest a match to the zodiac.

Thanks for the comparisons traveller1st! I know it's time comsuming work!

Like bentley mentioned, the author of those cards (if not Z) would be trying (and I emphasize trying) to look somewhat like Zodiac's. Not sure how we can compare so much a lower case "y", but the "r"s are good and while someone trying to copy may have pulled off an r or two, the rest as a whole looks nothing like Zodiac's to me.

Again, the "c", the "n", the "h", among others don't cut it for me.

I will put copies of some of the other Zodiac envelopes next to the HC and Pines card in a bit.

No probs,

Yes, it becomes a bit of a grey area unfortunately if we consider that it was someone trying to make it look like Zodiac's writing. My gut feeling on this is that it isn't that. Actually it's a bit more than a gut feeling. The printing in these cases is stylized so it's neither cursive nor is it handprinting and by that virtue alone it isn't an attempt to copy Zodiac's writing.

So basically what we have here is a stylized hand drawn font, elements of which bear a resemblance to Zodiac's handprinting. I don't see an attempt at forgery here but rather a unique style, the under-lying ingrained habits of which, seem to tally up with Zodiac's. In this respect I would see the differences as a result of styling rather than an indication of a non-match.

Also bear in mind that there is evidence of Zodiac departing from his usual style in the envelope for the Nov 9th 1969 bus bomb letter.


I agree 100%.
IMO Zodiac could, and did, use several different handwriting styles, from unmature sloppy handwritingstyle to mature sophisticated handwriting style (the red Phantom letter).
Also his 408 cipher was written with a very trained hand, not at all the style of his other sloppy letters.

All this IMO point to that Zodiac indeed knew how to write perfectly, but that he was able to write in a consistant sloppy style, when he choose to do so, to make it look like he was less educated than he actually was.

Somone well trained and very skilled in hand writing can write both sophisticated handwriting style AND unmature sloppy handwritingstyle.
But somone not trained and not skilled can ONLY write sloppy handwritingstyle.
SO, thise mean that Zodiac indeed was well trained and very skilled in hand writing.

I also belive that Zodiac, on pupos used different handwriting styles in order to confuse, and boy did he succseed!

As I have said before, I belive that one of Zodiac's main stragegies was to act as one big paradox/contadiction in all he did, to cause confusion.



Here is a copy of a post I posted back in August 2009:

I am convinced that Zodiac had a ruel nr 1.

To be a big time PARADOX.
To mix and change in every move he made as the Zodiac Killer, in order to confuse people and of course LE and their investigation:


Here are som examples I have noticed:


Changed modus operandi

Changed type of victims

Changed weapons (even change his guns/calibers)

Changed murder locations , LE Counties

Bad spellig/good spelling

Bad gramma/good gramma

Sloppy unmature handwriting/organized mature handwriting

On one hand give impression of low education/ on other hand indicate/refere to probable extensive knowledge in arts/intellectual/religious issues

Refere to several contradicting religious belifs like Christianity/ hedonistic belifs

Evil & scarry attitude/polite, cheerful & nice attitude

Powerfull and coldhearted attitude/ express weekness like lonellyness & unhappyness

Very informative & communicative about his actions / succeded in beeing exstreamly enigmatic

Name himself Zodiac and sign with crosshair symbol/ add new symbol (HC card) as his signature, and at other letters sign himself as "A Citizen" and "The Red Phantom"

Victims and murder location ect. are not connected to celebritie community (not himself connected to celeb commutity) / refere to (even directly adress) several celebreties in his communications (indicating possible connection to celeb communtiy)

Ect....

Just my opinion of course.
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:16 pm

The paradice slave’s card is genuine, positive 100%..., please read “keys” post on page 2, she is absolutely correct; and couldn’t have explained it better…

More than one poet out there…Make sure you find the right rabbit… oh… I mean the white wabbit…lol… watch out; don’t follow the wabbit down the wrong hole…

1. By Fire, Gun = 9
2. Knife, Rope = 9

farao
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:04 pm

Hi Daniel,

I have to admit that you and Keys are on a completely different wave length than I am. Smile Not that any of us are right or wrong, you may be right on target with Z. That's one of the best things about this forum, everyone can have an opinion without bashing someone else.

I also want to say that the Holloween card for many people holds a clue, about 10,000 clues if you add up everyone's, to the identity of Zodiac or their POI, so it makes it hard to think of letting go. I've taken many stabs at it's meaning myself. Lastly, if someone has a POI and their handwriting doesn't match Z's, or if they feel Z was responsible for CJB or DL, it's another factor that may (or may not) affect their judgement. Again it's all good, non of us is right unless we happen to catch the Z, which hopefully will happen if we continue to put our thoughts and ideas out there.

Here's the beginning portion of the Little List letter. It's a good example of Z's ability to write clearly and neatly. Within a few lines though he goes back to the sloppy quick paced style we are used to seeing in his other letters, and for the remainder of this letter. I have no doubt that Z did not, on purpose, slip into this second style of writing. We all do this, start off a letter nice and neat and as your thoughts overcome you need for neatness, the writing suffers. It's my opinion that if the writing, say a letter, from a POI that comes along that matches this, we have our boy.

This BTW is also a good example of Z's Ks, both in good format and sloppy. Both have the diagonal legs meeting close to the vertical as in a 2 stroke, but upon close inspection you will see they are in fact 3 stroke.

Could Z have switched his writing style long enough to complete, say, the Bates letters? Absolutely, imo. But I don't think he would have wavered from the 3 stroke K on the Halloween card. In any event. again why if he wanted to threaten Avery did he not include some of his usual Z traits or writing (or a shirt piece) to make sure Avery knew it was legit? And why did SFPD not test the H card with all the paste ups?

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:16 pm

traveller1st wrote:
Also bear in mind that there is evidence of Zodiac departing from his usual style in the envelope for the Nov 9th 1969 bus bomb letter.


Absolutely! I think we all agree upon that, but even that envelope above bears his usual handwriting--aside of the new block stlye. Even Belli's letter was a bit unique--more "proper", aside of the horrible spelling.

When you look at it in the mind frame of Zodiac, it looks like his writing, but when you look closely at stuff like this: ...you see these little flairs...the whispy h & n...the hooked "c".

If we are going to say Zodiac "switched it up", then heck, throw all those questioned letters in the mix! But why? Unless you get DNA...it's all smoke and mirrors. "Paradise Slaves"...yah, so? Smile

What it boils down to for me at least, is the handwriting is not the same. Whether Zodiac's or not, it's different. Add the handwriting looking practically identical on the HC and Pines card, these only going to Paul Avery, along with only paste-ups going to Paul-- I find that very NOT Zodiac like.


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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:20 pm

My experience on stylized writing is that it's more akin to doodling or sketching than writing. You are basically drawing the letters and as such tend to spend more time on each one and because your brain is approaching it from the point of view of sketching the finished result can be less likely to follow the subconscious traits of your normal writing or printing. ie if I ask you to write a k you will do it subconsciously but if I ask you to sketch a k you are more likely to produce what you imagine a k looks like rather than how you write it.




Unless you get DNA...it's all smoke and mirrors.

Agree.

EDIT: Although I think we're overlooking the biggest piece of proof that the HC was from Zodiac. It's spooky and has a crosshair on it lol Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:30 pm

Another point I'll throw out there while I'm home recovering from a 4 hour spinal tap yesterday Shocked (and I'm not talking music)

Here is Harry Martin's letter by letter comparison of his suspect Robert Hunter. Now anyone who's read the Harry Martin Z sage knows Hunter's chances of being Z are about the same as Abe Lincoln. But if I said the 'suspects' letter were from a Z letter, you might say it was the same writer as Z. Conspicuously missing are the Ks, fs and other of Z more hallmark letters.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:34 pm

4 hour spinal tap!!. Oh man Bents sorry to hear that. I did think you meant the band for a minute - for shame. Hope you're recovering well.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:41 pm

Thanks Trav, I'm fine. I was just told to refrain from any Olympic weight lifting or Operatic singing for the next couple days. Shouldn't be a problem. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:14 pm

traveller1st wrote:
EDIT: Although I think we're overlooking the biggest piece of proof that the HC was from Zodiac. It's spooky and has a crosshair on it lol Very Happy

To this, I would agree.

I appreciate everyones input. I'm just trying to prove I am right and you all are wrong. geek (joke...kidding...sort of...maybe...)

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:18 pm

bentley wrote:
Thanks Trav, I'm fine. I was just told to refrain from any Olympic weight lifting or Operatic singing for the next couple days. Shouldn't be a problem. Smile

Especially with all of us doing such important investgation work! (You'd think I didn't have a hundred other things I should be doing. I could be brain surgeon by now.)

Hey--it's a good way to pass some time. Just don't forget about us when you are back liftin' weights.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:38 pm

traveller1st wrote:
My experience on stylized writing is that it's more akin to doodling or sketching than writing. You are basically drawing the letters and as such tend to spend more time on each one and because your brain is approaching it from the point of view of sketching the finished result can be less likely to follow the subconscious traits of your normal writing or printing. ie if I ask you to write a k you will do it subconsciously but if I ask you to sketch a k you are more likely to produce what you imagine a k looks like rather than how you write it.


Unless you get DNA...it's all smoke and mirrors.

Agree.

EDIT: Although I think we're overlooking the biggest piece of proof that the HC was from Zodiac. It's spooky and has a crosshair on it lol Very Happy

Highlight in red.

Very interesting observations Trav!

I would love to see a Zodiac profile done by you , a profile based on Zodiac's communications.
Have you ever posted such a profile? if not, would you concider doing that?
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:40 pm

Hi Bentley:

I hope you feel better soon. I’m silly sometimes but I don’t want anyone to think that I don’t take this research seriously. Everyone on this forum has done amazing research and we are getting closer to the truth. The paradice card is genuine, can I prove it, no…maybe what I know in its entirety revealed… then maybe yes.

At this time, I don’t have the patience like I use to in this research. I have been distancing myself from it more and more each day.

Daniel


Last edited by Daniel Gillotti on Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:12 pm

bentley wrote:
Another point I'll throw out there while I'm home recovering from a 4 hour spinal tap yesterday Shocked (and I'm not talking music)

Here is Harry Martin's letter by letter comparison of his suspect Robert Hunter. Now anyone who's read the Harry Martin Z sage knows Hunter's chances of being Z are about the same as Abe Lincoln. But if I said the 'suspects' letter were from a Z letter, you might say it was the same writer as Z. Conspicuously missing are the Ks, fs and other of Z more hallmark letters.


And this is why handwriting alone would never pin down the Zodiac Killer. Many people have provided similar samples. That is a great thing...we just need more! Too bad someone doesn't come across a man with an old basement filled with Zodiac newspaper articles, a shoebox of old greeting cards and Roosevelt stamps. Maybe an old bottle of airplane glue...

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:30 pm

bentley wrote:
.....Here's the beginning portion of the Little List letter. It's a good example of Z's ability to write clearly and neatly. Within a few lines though he goes back to the sloppy quick paced style we are used to seeing in his other letters, and for the remainder of this letter. I have no doubt that Z did not, on purpose, slip into this second style of writing. We all do this....

The Belli Letter too: http://zodiackillersite.forummotion.com/t383-12-20-69-letter-sent-to-melvin-belli

Guess he didn't have to worry about that since he decided not to do a whole lot of writing when it came to Avery.

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PostSubject: Re: Pines Card and Halloween Card, etc. same person NOT Zodiac??   Sat Apr 07, 2012 3:15 am

tahoe27 wrote:


What it boils down to for me at least, is the handwriting is not the same. Whether Zodiac's or not, it's different. Add the handwriting looking practically identical on the HC and Pines card, these only going to Paul Avery, along with only paste-ups going to Paul-- I find that very NOT Zodiac like.


Yup,

I agree. This is interesting and a good synopsis to quote as I wanted to say again, good find and well spotted points. I've seen that 'h' before and here it is. Again it's the Pines card that's the closer match to the example.


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